May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[melvinmelvin]

 

The campaigns leading up to the referendum on leave/stay and the debates after the referendum

have revealed, in abundance, extraordinary talent in the UK population.

 

There is absolutely no end to the hoards of people being able to predict the political and economical

future of the UK, and that with high degree of accuracy.

Impressing.

 

That is a talent which is highly sought after in Asia. Truth sayers can make fortunes here.

 

Without the Brexit referndum this talent may not have been discovered.

 

 

[Khun Han]

19 minutes ago, aright said:

 

The inventor of Linux understands this. Obviously it's a bit too complex a notion for some.

[talahtnut]

15 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

The campaigns leading up to the referendum on leave/stay and the debates after the referendum

have revealed, in abundance, extraordinary talent in the UK population.

 

There is absolutely no end to the hoards of people being able to predict the political and economical

future of the UK, and that with high degree of accuracy.

Impressing.

 

That is a talent which is highly sought after in Asia. Truth sayers can make fortunes here.

 

Without the Brexit referndum this talent may not have been discovered.

 

 

I am amazed that someone else has seen it other than me.

Well done Sir.   But you will be vilified by the many.

[sandyf]

2 hours ago, aright said:

The point that has been proven is you can't debate the illiberal undemocratic stand  that the unelected Cabal in Brussels has taken. Perhaps you should think more cogently and constructively. We can't have an exchange of views if you turn your back on the too hard questions and regard them as mere noise. I will try the question again. 

What right does an illiberal, unelected Cabal in Brussels have to tell an elected Government anywhere what to do? 

EU commissioners are chosen by the governments of the member states and all legislation must be passed by the EU  parliament, elected by the people of the member states.

 

The UK prime minister and members of the cabinet are chosen. This unelected cabinet tries to tell an elected parliament what to do.

We can always live in hope, maybe one day the PM and cabinet will be elected by the general public, after all that is what brexiteers think should happen.

[oldhippy]

2 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

The campaigns leading up to the referendum on leave/stay and the debates after the referendum

have revealed, in abundance, extraordinary talent in the UK population.

 

There is absolutely no end to the hoards of people being able to predict the political and economical

future of the UK, and that with high degree of accuracy.

Impressing.

 

That is a talent which is highly sought after in Asia. Truth sayers can make fortunes here.

 

Without the Brexit referndum this talent may not have been discovered.

 

 

As a macro economist I fully agree with you.

Making detailed short term predictions does not make sense.

There are just too many unpredictable interfering factors.

 

However, it is possible to make very broad long term predictions.

One such prediction is that the world economy is moving towards globalization, whether we like it or not.

Policies towards fragmentation are doomed to fail in the long run.

Brexit is an example of such a policy.

 

That does not mean that globalization or EU will automatically lead us to Milk & Honey.

So let's work together for a better EU, rather than revive the 19th century.

 

 

 

 

 

[nontabury]

4 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

"What right does.......".  It starts with the Massstricht Treaty and continues every other amendment and bill that was agreed by members subsequently.

 

But I'm sorry, I'm not interested in discussing your perception of  what is illiberal and undemocratic, that is all history, the causes of which can all be traced back to fact. I'm far more interested in the future than the past, in particular, I'm interested in the economic impact of Brexit, which is why I have asked Team Brexit about that aspect for many many months and still not received any answers. So no, I'm not going to debate noise and help you further your deflection.

The Maastricht Treaty was NEVER put to the British people, then you say you are not prepared to discuss what is illiberal and undemocratic. Priceless.

[ilostmypassword]

30 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

As a macro economist I fully agree with you.

Making detailed short term predictions does not make sense.

There are just too many unpredictable interfering factors.

 

However, it is possible to make very broad long term predictions.

One such prediction is that the world economy is moving towards globalization, whether we like it or not.

Policies towards fragmentation are doomed to fail in the long run.

Brexit is an example of such a policy.

 

That does not mean that globalization or EU will automatically lead us to Milk & Honey.

So let's work together for a better EU, rather than revive the 19th century.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes. right after the brexit referendum Paull Krugman made a strong point of saying that economists who predicted immediate disaster for the UK had no basis in theory for making such a claim. Even over the long run he has said it's not going to be a disaster. But the effects will be cumulative with lagging growth gradually making the UK fall further and further behind. But if there's hunger in the streets of the UK (or should I say more hunger) it won't be due to Brexit any more than it was due to membership in the EU. Look rather to the policies of the Conservatives for that.

[simoh1490]

6 minutes ago, nontabury said:

The Maastricht Treaty was NEVER put to the British people, then you say you are not prepared to discuss what is illiberal and undemocratic. Priceless.

It matters not a jot whether it was or it wasn't, it was agreed and signed by the government the British people elected. Oddly, not every decision by government needs to be voted upon and approved in a democratic vote, that is done once every four years which means all decisions in that period has the approval of the people, geddit!

 

Anyway, the questions I answered had nothing to do with democratic voting, the question that I answered was how the EU had the approval to do things and Maastricht (and subsequent agreements and amendments) provided the answer.

 

Once again, do try and stop looking backwards and do try to look forward and for god's sake, do stop covering old ground that's been ploughed under hundreds of time already.

 

[oldhippy]

14 minutes ago, nontabury said:

The Maastricht Treaty was NEVER put to the British people, then you say you are not prepared to discuss what is illiberal and undemocratic. Priceless.

Ah nontaburi, you are back.

Do you still accuse me of being prejudiced, because in your fantasies I am a paid parasite that works in Brussels for the EU?

 

[vogie]

4 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

It matters not a jot whether it was or it wasn't, it was agreed and signed by the government the British people elected. Oddly, not every decision by government needs to be voted upon and approved in a democratic vote, that is done once every four years which means all decisions in that period has the approval of the people, geddit!

 

Anyway, the questions I answered had nothing to do with democratic voting, the question that I answered was how the EU had the approval to do things and Maastricht (and subsequent agreements and amendments) provided the answer.

 

Once again, do try and stop looking backwards and do try to look forward and for god's sake, do stop covering old ground that's been ploughed under hundreds of time already.

 

Would you mind sharing that sentiment with your friends who get their information from the sides of buses?

[ilostmypassword]

20 minutes ago, nontabury said:

The Maastricht Treaty was NEVER put to the British people, then you say you are not prepared to discuss what is illiberal and undemocratic. Priceless.

Correct me if I'm wrong but virtually all laws and treaties are subject to the approval of Parliament. Do you have a problem with that? Are the laws of the UK illegitimate for that reason?

[oldhippy]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

Would you mind sharing that sentiment with your friends who get their information from the sides of buses?

Have the hiso brexit tories made it clear yet how much more money will go to the NHS after brexit?

OK not 350 million a week, but surely enough to provide for the human rights of the loso? How much?

 

[Jip99]

9 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

Have the hiso brexit tories made it clear yet how much more money will go to the NHS after brexit?

OK not 350 million a week, but surely enough to provide for the human rights of the loso? How much?

 

 

 

Surely that hat would have been in Cameron’s exit plan....

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

The inventor of Linux understands this. Obviously it's a bit too complex a notion for some.

My "subtle" comment was clearly a piece of irony which went way over your heads. I will use simpler rhetoric in future.

 

Let me put my point another way:-

 

The May mob keep pushing the line that "the people have decided". They NEVER say "by a small margin". They NEVER voice any doubts about the decision possibly having changed over time. Are they really so literally democratic? Really?

 

Most MPs were pro remain by a large margin. Have they all been convinced about Brexit? Have so many changed their minds? Really?

 

I put it to you that there IS an ulterior motive. They have built a Trojan horse dressed up in the colours of the "PEOPLE'S REPRESENTATIVES!

 

These people are not fools! Cynical bastards maybe, but not fools

 

They smell a chance to make hay! Quite clever really!

 

Do you really believe the Cons give a damn about what's best for the majority? They're all philanthropists? What rot.

 

I tell you they can see Trumpesque opportunities for personal advancement at the expense of the many. Do you not see this?

 

As for Corbyn, he would take a job as a piano player in a whorehouse if he thought he could get a few more votes. If, god forbid, he gets in, watch for '70s style Trotskyist policies. (Not that they're all wrong; I would nationalise the utilities).

 

We need a new electoral system based on some form of PR. Right now I feel disenfranchised. Frankly, I trust the Brussels Eurocrats far more than I trust either of the two main parties. 

Edited December 21, 2017 by Grouse

[evadgib]

From HMG this week:

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/a-letter-from-the-prime-minister-to-uk-nationals-living-in-europe

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/home-secretarys-open-letter-to-eu-citizens-in-the-uk

Edited December 21, 2017 by evadgib

[nauseus]

8 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

It matters not a jot whether it was or it wasn't, it was agreed and signed by the government the British people elected. Oddly, not every decision by government needs to be voted upon and approved in a democratic vote, that is done once every four years which means all decisions in that period has the approval of the people, geddit!

 

Anyway, the questions I answered had nothing to do with democratic voting, the question that I answered was how the EU had the approval to do things and Maastricht (and subsequent agreements and amendments) provided the answer.

 

Once again, do try and stop looking backwards and do try to look forward and for god's sake, do stop covering old ground that's been ploughed under hundreds of time already.

 

This is the (referendum) ground that rabid remainers don't care to disturb.

 

As soon as a valid point is raised they always run back to their better-in economic cave. 

Edited December 21, 2017 by nauseus

[nauseus]

10 hours ago, sandyf said:

EU commissioners are chosen by the governments of the member states and all legislation must be passed by the EU  parliament, elected by the people of the member states.

 

The UK prime minister and members of the cabinet are chosen. This unelected cabinet tries to tell an elected parliament what to do.

We can always live in hope, maybe one day the PM and cabinet will be elected by the general public, after all that is what brexiteers think should happen.

I don't mind electoral system change in the UK but to say the the EU Commission selection is democratic is totally absurd.

Edited December 21, 2017 by nauseus

[baansgr]

8 hours ago, Grouse said:

My "subtle" comment was clearly a piece of irony which went way over your heads. I will use simpler rhetoric in future.

 

Let me put my point another way:-

 

The May mob keep pushing the line that "the people have decided". They NEVER say "by a small margin". They NEVER voice any doubts about the decision possibly having changed over time. Are they really so literally democratic? Really?

 

Most MPs were pro remain by a large margin. Have they all been convinced about Brexit? Have so many changed their minds? Really?

 

I put it to you that there IS an ulterior motive. They have built a Trojan horse dressed up in the colours of the "PEOPLE'S REPRESENTATIVES!

 

These people are not fools! Cynical bastards maybe, but not fools

 

They smell a chance to make hay! Quite clever really!

 

Do you really believe the Cons give a damn about what's best for the majority? They're all philanthropists? What rot.

 

I tell you they can see Trumpesque opportunities for personal advancement at the expense of the many. Do you not see this?

 

As for Corbyn, he would take a job as a piano player in a whorehouse if he thought he could get a few more votes. If, god forbid, he gets in, watch for '70s style Trotskyist policies. (Not that they're all wrong; I would nationalise the utilities).

 

We need a new electoral system based on some form of PR. Right now I feel disenfranchised. Frankly, I trust the Brussels Eurocrats far more than I trust either of the two main parties. 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/869024/remainers-back-brexit-one-in-four-voters-change-mind-staying-EU

 

 

Seems the margin has changed, lets move on now.

[nontabury]

36 minutes ago, baansgr said:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/869024/remainers-back-brexit-one-in-four-voters-change-mind-staying-EU

 

 

Seems the margin has changed, lets move on now.

Yes, but he will say this is from the Express. Omitting the fact that his post related to the Infependent. Plus he forgot to mention the CEO of the Independents survey, is quoted as saying that his survey is suspect, mentioning amongst others, that their survey possible included people not eligible to vote.

[mommysboy]

5 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Yes, but he will say this is from the Express. Omitting the fact that his post related to the Infependent. Plus he forgot to mention the CEO of the Independents survey, is quoted as saying that his survey is suspect, mentioning amongst others, that their survey possible included people not eligible to vote.

 

Nonsense survey.

 

But if we have to leave then I agree hard Brexit is really the only option, since anything else undermines the whole idea behind Brexit.  Personally, I think it a terrible move, but the course we are on at the moment is even worse.

 

Yes, look forward to the future: this shower won't get back in power for another thirty years; now, there's something to cheer about.

Edited December 21, 2017 by mommysboy

[ilostmypassword]

2 hours ago, baansgr said:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/869024/remainers-back-brexit-one-in-four-voters-change-mind-staying-EU

 

 

Seems the margin has changed, lets move on now.

So you think polls are like fine wine in that they get better with age?

[simoh1490]

3 hours ago, baansgr said:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/869024/remainers-back-brexit-one-in-four-voters-change-mind-staying-EU

 

 

Seems the margin has changed, lets move on now.

Er, um.....that poll is dated October 21, it's now 22 December, more recent polls have now shown the exact opposite is true!!! A nice try but ultimately a fail.

[aright]

4 hours ago, nauseus said:

I don't mind electoral system change in the UK but to say the the EU Commission selection is democratic is totally absurd.

A popular claim by many supporters of the Leave campaign is that the EU is run by ‘unelected bureaucrats’.

This claim mainly refers to the EU Commission: the EU’s executive body. It is true that the Commission President and the individual Commissioners are not directly elected by the peoples of Europe. So, in that sense, we cannot “throw the scoundrels out”. It is also true that under the provisions of the EU treaty, the Commission has the sole right to propose EU legislation, which, if passed, is then binding on all the EU member states and the citizens of these member states.

Edited December 21, 2017 by aright

[oldhippy]

4 hours ago, nontabury said:

Yes, but he will say this is from the Express. Omitting the fact that his post related to the Infependent. Plus he forgot to mention the CEO of the Independents survey, is quoted as saying that his survey is suspect, mentioning amongst others, that their survey possible included people not eligible to vote.

 

Ah nontaburi, you are back.

Do you still accuse me of being prejudiced, because in your fantasies I am a paid parasite that works in Brussels for the EU?

[SheungWan]

“Brexit La-La land"

FT: 'The EU is preparing to present Britain with a skeleton, Canada-style trade deal by the early summer if the UK is unable to clarify its demands and remains in “Brexit La-La land”, according to senior European officials.'

[Khun Han]

14 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

“Brexit La-La land"

FT: 'The EU is preparing to present Britain with a skeleton, Canada-style trade deal by the early summer if the UK is unable to clarify its demands and remains in “Brexit La-La land”, according to senior European officials.'

 

And if we didn't have a government which is acting out a pantomime, with no intention of actually brexiting, we could tell the EU to stick their demands where the sun doesn't shine. Instead, we are forced to watch a bunch of traitors doing third-rate theatre. Nobody has ever been able to answer the question: "Why does Europe need the EU?" People come up with aery-faery notions about keeping the peace (disproven) and 'togetherness' (), and avert their eyes to the elephant in the room: globalists on the make.

[simoh1490]

4 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

And if we didn't have a government which is acting out a pantomime, with no intention of actually brexiting, we could tell the EU to stick their demands where the sun doesn't shine. Instead, we are forced to watch a bunch of traitors doing third-rate theatre. Nobody has ever been able to answer the question: "Why does Europe need the EU?" People come up with aery-faery notions about keeping the peace (disproven) and 'togetherness' (), and avert their eyes to the elephant in the room: globalists on the make.

I know the word has become fashionable, overused and abused as a result of Trump, but what's your definition of a globalist?

[Khun Han]

17 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

I know the word has become fashionable, overused and abused as a result of Trump, but what's your definition of a globalist?

 

George Soros.

[simoh1490]

4 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

George Soros.

That's your example of a person who is a globalist, allegedly, I want to understand what YOU mean when you use that word, what makes a globalist so despicable, what is it they do that other people don't, why are they so undesirable, that sort of thing.

[aright]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/bilderberg-group-meeting-what-is-it-and-who-is-attending-global-elites-a7069561.html