Theresa May warned of risk of constitutional crisis over Brexit deal

[elgordo38]

4 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

How can an agreement be reached when the objectives are 180 degrees apart? I don't think that there is anyone who believes that the SNP won't, quite rightly, see this as an opportunity to make as much political capital as possible. Exciting times ahead...

Its never about benefits for the people its always about political capital to bank. If these "leaders" don't blow their horn of dissent they will be tossed out on their ear after the next election. They feather their nest first

[sydneyboy]

Who give a <deleted>, Citizens of the UK voted to leave the EU. 

THE PEOPLE OF THE UK HAVE SPOKEN. 

it's time the Government bites the bullet and sets a date for departure. 

No time for dodging bullets from so called anti Brexit dumbos. 

The Muslems will be rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of a divided country, so they get their hands on more control because the Pommie establishment can't make up their minds. 

[Baerboxer]

35 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

And that, one and all, is exactly why I have been asking for intelligent debate on the issue. Thank you for taking the time!

 

1) I fully agree about the Euro. You would have to have much closer union of economies which is unlikely. It has of course been great for Germany. They have benefitted massively.

 

2) You are correct that we have very different legal systems which could never merge.

 

3) I don't really know the specific reason why Yugoslavia blew apart. I'll read up on it.....

 

4) Now I do think Brussels could, and indeed still can, be strong armed by the grown ups Germany, UK, Netherlands, Denmark, Finland, and others. Right from the start there were major differences about the degree of integration that was possible or desirable.

 

I still hope we can find a sensible solution to all this ?

 

I will I'll happily join you in a two finger salute to Geldof any time. Way past his sell by date.

 

I tend to agree with JAG on this although I voted to remain because I really feel the UK should be leading change within the EU and probably has more allies than are realized from countries who aren't able to lead that themselves. However:

 

1) The Euro has indeed been great for Germany and German Banks to. But the German banks have still managed to get themselves into difficult situations despite those benefits. That is a train wreck waiting to happen. 

2) I've posted about the different legal systems before on several threads. Completely overlooked by the campaigners and therefore most voters. The EU, particularly Germany, wants a EU Army and more security co-operation with police which will lead to a EU police. That cannot really happen without a unified legal system. I don't see Germany and France wanting to switch from a codified system to one based on English common law. Losing right to trial by jury etc is not something I'd ever want to see.

3) The break up of Yugoslavia was always going to happen once Tito passed on. I had friends who served there in WW11 and they predicted it; and friends who served there on peacekeeping and said it will never be calm. Religious, ethnic, and centuries of atrocities carried out be all sides. Hard to imagine but the EU could break up violently one day.

4) Agree with you. But the federalists, lead by Germany, France, Italy and Belgium will push for ever increasing "union" which they will control through appointed bureaucrats they choose. They have been allowed to progress unchecked for some time.

 

Whatever solution it is, it must be fully in accordance with the law. And not what's convenient to a bunch of lack luster politicians and their personal ambitions and agendas.

[Baerboxer]

31 minutes ago, sydneyboy said:

Who give a <deleted>, Citizens of the UK voted to leave the EU. 

THE PEOPLE OF THE UK HAVE SPOKEN. 

it's time the Government bites the bullet and sets a date for departure. 

No time for dodging bullets from so called anti Brexit dumbos. 

The Muslems will be rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of a divided country, so they get their hands on more control because the Pommie establishment can't make up their minds. 

 

My word, your profound understanding of the UK constitutional law in this context is only equaled by that of the English language.

 

Do the have referendums down under? As well as changing PM's nearly as often as showering.

[Grouse]

31 minutes ago, sydneyboy said:

Who give a <deleted>, Citizens of the UK voted to leave the EU. 

THE PEOPLE OF THE UK HAVE SPOKEN. 

it's time the Government bites the bullet and sets a date for departure. 

No time for dodging bullets from so called anti Brexit dumbos. 

The Muslems will be rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of a divided country, so they get their hands on more control because the Pommie establishment can't make up their minds. 

 

Lovely to have some antipodean erudition! Quite sobers one up. Of all of our former colonies they've done jolly well; don't you think? ?

[Grouse]

35 minutes ago, MJP said:

Dear Fellows!

 

Tis' gonna be a long hard road to re-balancing the economy, but it can and shall and must be done. Admittedly this is before we've actually had the Brexit, but fingers crossed, eh?

 

Manufacturing exports boosted by pound

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37748667

47% of manufacturers stated the weak pound had a negative impact against 32% stating positive impact. Skilled labour shortage is biggest issue. They are looking for 1M numpties who can tie their own shoe laces in less than 1 hour. 

Edited October 24, 2016 by Grouse

[MJP]

Just now, Grouse said:

47% of manufacturers stated the weak pound had a negative impact against 

 

So the majority are chuffed to bits?

[MJP]

4 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

Lovely to have some antipodean erudition! Quite sobers one up. Of all of our former colonies they've done jolly well; don't you think? ?

 

[LannaGuy]

Cameron the high class twit of a moron led us to THIS

 

He could have easily put in a clause of 5% majority must agree but he arrogantly went ahead what a prat he is

[LannaGuy]

44 minutes ago, sydneyboy said:

Who give a <deleted>, Citizens of the UK voted to leave the EU. 

THE PEOPLE OF THE UK HAVE SPOKEN. 

it's time the Government bites the bullet and sets a date for departure. 

No time for dodging bullets from so called anti Brexit dumbos. 

The Muslems will be rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of a divided country, so they get their hands on more control because the Pommie establishment can't make up their minds. 

 

the cream of Sydney has spoken!  have another Fosters mate and while yer at it give yer Shelia a clip round the ear for takin so long to serve ya!   

[RuamRudy]

2 hours ago, 7by7 said:

'O' level British constitution passed nearly 40 years ago does not, of course, make me anywhere near an expert; but having read up on this I have found many articles from those who are experts which state that there is no reason why the Northern Irish and Welsh assemblies and the Scottish Parliament should not harmonise the laws they make in the areas over which they have power with those of the EU after Brexit if they wish to do so.

 

At worst it would require a simple amendment to the relevant Acts to remove the actual requirement that they so do.

 

And there's the rub - the Scottish government will not, I assume, be inclined to assist the passage of BREXIT by making things easy for Westminster, especially not with a sympathetic electorate to get even more on side.

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

Another case of Jimmy Sturgeon Krankie blowing smoke up TM's rear. The Scots really can't afford to leave the UK.

The Welsh voted to leave the EU anyway, and Northern Ireland are just worried about the boarder having to be put up again.

I hope Jimmy puts it to a new "Ind-ref" and has to resign when the Scots vote to stay in the UK again.

 

[JAG]

46 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

Lovely to have some antipodean erudition! Quite sobers one up. Of all of our former colonies they've done jolly well; don't you think? ?

 

Oh I think the Canadians have done better - all the benefits of the USA, but with 1) a sense of humour, 2) the ability to make a decent cup of tea.

 

I have always regarded Australia with deep suspicion ever since I was once served what was called a "floater" in Brunei of all places.  Basically a NAAFI Growler (meat pie of indeterminate origin) bobbing in a bowl of pea soup.  Just the job in 32 degrees Centigrade and blazing sunshine!

 

No , on balance, if I was starting all over again I'd go to Canada.

[dunroaming]

May has now said that the SNP can have a seat at the Brexit negotiating table.  We should assume then that Wales and Northern Ireland will be given the same.  I just hope they will use a sound proof room for their meetings and have an ambulance on standby!

 

I have always said that there shouldn't be a second referendum but the way this is stacking up and the fact that quite a few Brexiteers are having second thoughts maybe we shouldn't rule it out.

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

Another case of Jimmy Sturgeon Krankie blowing smoke up TM's rear. The Scots really can't afford to leave the UK.

The Welsh voted to leave the EU anyway, and Northern Ireland are just worried about the boarder having to be put up again.

I hope Jimmy puts it to a new "Ind-ref" and has to resign when the Scots vote to stay in the UK again.

 

 

I will be honest that I had expected a post such as yours much earlier in the thread, but I can now tick off the Krankies reference from my bingo sheet. Who is going to give me 'Scots hate the English' ?

[dunroaming]

1 hour ago, sydneyboy said:

Who give a <deleted>, Citizens of the UK voted to leave the EU. 

THE PEOPLE OF THE UK HAVE SPOKEN. 

it's time the Government bites the bullet and sets a date for departure. 

No time for dodging bullets from so called anti Brexit dumbos. 

The Muslems will be rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of a divided country, so they get their hands on more control because the Pommie establishment can't make up their minds. 

 

It's always good to hear a well balanced considered view.  Sydneyboy, do you have any idea who might have one?

[RuamRudy]

14 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

May has now said that the SNP can have a seat at the Brexit negotiating table.  We should assume then that Wales and Northern Ireland will be given the same.  I just hope they will use a sound proof room for their meetings and have an ambulance on standby!

 

I have always said that there shouldn't be a second referendum but the way this is stacking up and the fact that quite a few Brexiteers are having second thoughts maybe we shouldn't rule it out.

 

Looks like the kick-off meeting didn't go so well: "Sturgeon: meeting was "frustrating" and "I got a strong sense the UK govt doesn't yet know what its position is" on Brexit."

 

 

[dunroaming]

May is certainly no Thatcher. I do wonder if she is up to this?  So far she is making no friends but plenty of enemies.

 

[Khun Han]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Looks like the kick-off meeting didn't go so well: "Sturgeon: meeting was "frustrating" and "I got a strong sense the UK govt doesn't yet know what its position is" on Brexit."

 

 

 

Or, if she was capable of being honest with herself, she would have stated that 'PM May wasn't prepared to to give too much away about the government's negotiating position to an attention-seeking motormouth like me'.

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Or, if she was capable of being honest with herself, she would have stated that 'PM May wasn't prepared to to give too much away about the government's negotiating position to an attention-seeking motormouth like me'.

 

Are you privy to TM's plan that makes you so sure that she was simply keeping her cards close to her chest? Has the PM actually got a strategy all worked out? We would, I am sure, love to hear more from you about it?

[Khun Han]

3 hours ago, Grouse said:

4 hours ago, JAG said:

 

I'm pressed for time i'm afraid but if I can summarise my main reasons for deciding that the UK will in the medium to long term be better off out of the EU.

 

1. I am firmly of the opinion that the financial union which is at the heart of the EU (the Euro) is doomed by the sheer incomparability of the economies which form it. A financial union can only work with fiscal union and that inevitably means political union. Put bluntly, sooner or later the Germans are going to have enough of bailing out the bankrupt southern and western fringes of the union.

 

2. The legal systems of most continental countries are completely different to that of the UK. The inevitable ever closer union will mean that our legal system (common law, jury trial, "habeus corpus") will be superseded by the continental pattern. I am utterly opposed to this.

 

3  I watched a state which was the enforced political union of a number of separate countries and traditions implode. It was a bloody mess. I think that a similar acrimonious falling apart (perhaps not so savage) would be the inevitable result of such a forced union.

 

4. I don't think that the construct that is the EU is capable of meaningful reform. It is run by a self perpetuating group drawn from the professional political classes of the member states. They have transferred their allegiance to this supranational government and will not consider any outside intervention. 

 

These are my reasons for considering that the UK is better off out. For these same reasons I think that the future of the EU is far from rosy. That's why I asked my brother to cast my proxy vote to leave.

 

Mind you, I did rather relish sticking two fingers up to Geldorf and his crew!

 

Got to go.

 

And that, one and all, is exactly why I have been asking for intelligent debate on the issue. Thank you for taking the time!

 

1) I fully agree about the Euro. You would have to have much closer union of economies which is unlikely. It has of course been great for Germany. They have benefitted massively.

 

2) You are correct that we have very different legal systems which could never merge.

 

3) I don't really know the specific reason why Yugoslavia blew apart. I'll read up on it.....

 

4) Now I do think Brussels could, and indeed still can, be strong armed by the grown ups Germany, UK, Netherlands, Denmark, Finland, and others. Right from the start there were major differences about the degree of integration that was possible or desirable.

 

I still hope we can find a sensible solution to all this ?

 

I will I'll happily join you in a two finger salute to Geldof any time. Way past his sell by date.

 

JAG's post is an excellent one, which articulates what others have been saying (and been called xenophobic/racist/isolationist/etc for so saying), and with a very good first hand anectote thrown in.

 

Fiscal union is impossible, and moves toward it only favour Germany.

 

Political union would be a disaster waiting to happen:  Europe works best as a loose association of disparate friends and could never be a happy family.

 

The only country capable of forcing meaningful change in EU bad practice is Germany, but Germany has not shown the slightest interest in doing so. And why should it? The EU is doing pretty-much what Germany wants it to do.

 

Ah yes, Sir Bob Geldof. He probably cost remain a few tens of thousands of votes all by himself. Some people just never learn when it's best to stay out of the limelight, speaking of which, Geldof should set up a political party with his mate Blair. I'm sure it'd go like a rocket .

 

[Khun Han]

59 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Are you privy to TM's plan that makes you so sure that she was simply keeping her cards close to her chest? Has the PM actually got a strategy all worked out? We would, I am sure, love to hear more from you about it?

 

No, I'm not a part of PM May's government.

 

And it's absurd to claim that they don't have a strategy.

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

4 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

You are right. It's actually somewhere between being courteous and seen to be reasonable and pandering to the self important egos of some leaders. Sturgeon rants, demands, threatens and claims things like she could veto Brexit (even suggesting May told her so), that Scotland would be welcome to stay in the EU (even though Tusk and other EU leaders made it clear that isn't the case) and ignores the fact more Scots voted to remain part of the UK than remain in EU. But that's her one agenda, and she she won't give up being as divisive as possible to try and further her one goal which is Scottish independence at any cost. 

 

The real issue is May's continued assertion she can simply use the Royal, really government, Prerogative rather than subject the referendum result to parliament for debating and approval or rejection.

 

She knows parliament are likely to over turn the referendum result, which would bring her short lived government down as there would be massive calls for a general election. An election fought on EU membership would split the Tories beyond repair. She will do anything to try to avoid either.

 

Most law experts commentating on the on-going trial challenging the government's right to by pass parliament see it as a serious threat to the UK's parliamentary process and further erosion of parliamentary powers. 

 

This is already a constitutional crisis whatever happens now. All brought about by the arrogant Cameron and his cronies who never dreamed they'd loose. Badly thought out process left to simple majority winner takes all and no plan what so ever for implementing a leave decision. Now those same Tories, plus or minus one or two, are trying to circumvent parliament to protect their own political party and their governments life span. 

 

Sturgeon isn't interested in the UK - she wants to destroy it and can't be trusted. The Welsh and Northern Irish leaders seem less self important and media seeking.  The Tories simply want to rule and now aren't even bothered about parliamentary process.

 

It really is a shambles with the lunatics running the asylum. 

 

 

Talking of lunatics, who would you suggest runs the country, Corbyn or Fallon?

[Khun Han]

4 hours ago, MJP said:

 

Someone described the Euro to me the other day as "the Deutsche Mark in drag".

 

 One sentence of pure comic genius.

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

6 hours ago, MJP said:

 

I think the monochrome was easier on the eye.

 

I agree. But sooner rather than later, that can has been kicked down the end of the QE cul-de-sac now. The banks leaving and taking all their dodginess with them will turn out to be a blessing. Can always start new banks, maybe even with a gold backed currency if Brown hadn't given it all away. 

 

UK has to rebuild, but there again it was always going to have to.

 

Considering kids are coming out of "university" to few job opportunities and in an untrained condition with enormous debts and no chance of affording a home, the place is already shot to bits for the younger generations. When I say affordable homes, I mean reasonable capital debt at a reasonable interest rate. It's a mess.

Brown was the worst chancellor and PM since WWII.

I have sympathy for young people trying to buy property, but it is not the interest rate that is stopping them, mortgages were running at 14%+ when I bought my first place in north London 1982.  The price of houses where there is work is the problem.

[MJP]

10 minutes ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

Brown was the worst chancellor and PM since WWII.

I have sympathy for young people trying to buy property, but it is not the interest rate that is stopping them, mortgages were running at 14%+ when I bought my first place in north London 1982.  The price of houses where there is work is the problem.

 

Trouble is arithmetic see, George.

 

If you're struggling to pay the mortgage when the base rate is 0.25% and it moves up to 0.5%, that's in effect (I know it ain't quite this simple) a doubling of the borrowing costs. If the rate is 10% and it moves up to 11%, that's a 10% increase. It's all a balance between capital debt and servicing costs.

 

See you bought at 14% and the rate came down making it all possible (although I think they peaked at 15.5% during the ERM debacle, another EU inspired nightmare). Right now, although negative IR's are being discussed, which indicates a complete collapse of the debt based monetary system, in reality IR's have bottomed and yet house prices are shockingly high as a ratio to income. Another massive re-balancing that surely has to take place.

 

This is how silly its all got . . . 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-37657012

Edited October 24, 2016 by MJP

[Laughing Gravy]

3 minutes ago, MJP said:

See you bought at 14% and the rate came down making it all possible (although I think they peaked at 15.5% during the ERM debacle, another EU inspired nightmare). Right now, although negative IR's are being discussed, which indicates a complete collapse of the debt based monetary system, in reality IR's have bottomed and yet house prices are shockingly high as a ratio to income. Another massive re-balancing that surely has to take place.

 

This is how silly its all got . . . 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-37657012

How very true and I agree totally. The other fact is when you bought your first house as you mentioned in the 1980s you were allowed on average 3 to3.5 times your salary after a deposit. Now the problem is 5-7 times your salary, often as a 100%  mortgage with no deposit, so a slight increase in rates cripples most people.

 

People also bought into the 'bigger is better' and 'keep up with the Joneses' mentality buying property in the believe that the equity value would also go up and interest rates would stay relatively similar, which historically are two very dangerous economic concepts to rely on.

[Grouse]

5 hours ago, JAG said:

 

Oh I think the Canadians have done better - all the benefits of the USA, but with 1) a sense of humour, 2) the ability to make a decent cup of tea.

 

I have always regarded Australia with deep suspicion ever since I was once served what was called a "floater" in Brunei of all places.  Basically a NAAFI Growler (meat pie of indeterminate origin) bobbing in a bowl of pea soup.  Just the job in 32 degrees Centigrade and blazing sunshine!

 

No , on balance, if I was starting all over again I'd go to Canada.

 

You are correct; I was of course being ironic!

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

JAG's post is an excellent one, which articulates what others have been saying (and been called xenophobic/racist/isolationist/etc for so saying), and with a very good first hand anectote thrown in.

 

Fiscal union is impossible, and moves toward it only favour Germany.

 

Political union would be a disaster waiting to happen:  Europe works best as a loose association of disparate friends and could never be a happy family.

 

The only country capable of forcing meaningful change in EU bad practice is Germany, but Germany has not shown the slightest interest in doing so. And why should it? The EU is doing pretty-much what Germany wants it to do.

 

Ah yes, Sir Bob Geldof. He probably cost remain a few tens of thousands of votes all by himself. Some people just never learn when it's best to stay out of the limelight, speaking of which, Geldof should set up a political party with his mate Blair. I'm sure it'd go like a rocket .

 

 

But crucially JAG doesn't say anything racist, xenophobic or isolationist. Don't you see the difference? It's the first time I have every heard rational explanations from someone who voted leave. Clearly JAG is no numpty!

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

No, I'm not a part of PM May's government.

 

And it's absurd to claim that they don't have a strategy.

 

I don't believe May has a strategy. She keeps changing her stance.