US national... retirement income means ????

[charliebadenhop]

What about my situation?-

 

I get about $600 a month in SS from the US  govt. and about $450 a month from the Japanese govt. 

 

Can I go to the US Embassy and swear to receiving $1,050, and also have ready both the Japanese form and the US form issues by each government?

[ubonjoe]

11 minutes ago, charliebadenhop said:

What about my situation?-

 

I get about $600 a month in SS from the US  govt. and about $450 a month from the Japanese govt. 

 

Can I go to the US Embassy and swear to receiving $1,050, and also have ready both the Japanese form and the US form issues by each government?

You can show your total income from both sources on your income affidavit. Then you would need money in the bank to reach the total of 800k baht required.

[gk10002000]

15 minutes ago, charliebadenhop said:

What about my situation?-

 

I get about $600 a month in SS from the US  govt. and about $450 a month from the Japanese govt. 

 

Can I go to the US Embassy and swear to receiving $1,050, and also have ready both the Japanese form and the US form issues by each government?

I was just pointing out some technicalities.  And you are right.  What Thailand originally wanted to see, and in some cases recently  have read where they really do want to see the 65K baht coming into Thailand.  They want to see transfers, deposits from overseas etc.  However, many people don't move money that way or that regularly.   Some people get yearly annuities.  Some people get insurance settlement

 

16 minutes ago, charliebadenhop said:

What about my situation?-

 

I get about $600 a month in SS from the US  govt. and about $450 a month from the Japanese govt. 

 

Can I go to the US Embassy and swear to receiving $1,050, and also have ready both the Japanese form and the US form issues by each government?

A fine example.  Thanks for the post.  As written you would be lying if you said the 1,050 was from the US Government because it isn't.  That USA embassy affidavit is poorly written and your case is a good example. No doubt the current system is based on Vietnam era ideas where people had pensions, military retirements, etc.  I am pretty sure most people haven't had much issue with things.  But in this electronic information age, I would monitor things

[Evilbaz]

19 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

You can show your total income from both sources on your income affidavit. Then you would need money in the bank to reach the total of 800k baht required.

 

Plus 50,000 Baht extra to allow for currency fluctuations during the "seasoning period".

[ubonjoe]

15 minutes ago, gk10002000 said:

As written you would be lying if you said the 1,050 was from the US Government because it isn't. 

The affidavit says this " United States Government and/or other sources".

So how would he be lying?

[little mary sunshine]

6 minutes ago, Evilbaz said:

 

Plus 50,000 Baht extra to allow for currency fluctuations during the "seasoning period".

 

 

As as long as your Soc Sec and Investment Income or

other Private Pensions = 65,000 Bath per month you

are not required to show money in a Thai Bank Account

( Thai Immigration use 30Baht to the Dollar to calculate..

[Fore Man]

3 hours ago, maewang99 said:

the thread is still going? put Social Security to the side, it might not be over the threshold for some of us even if it is today if fx rates continue to normalize.  just look at the story this morning about CLMV's ditching the dollar... etc..... there is no difference between a public sector pension (or old style pension) that gives the retiree a "regular" monthly payment.... and a withdrawal of funds from a 401K or IRA account because the old style pension is not just a payment for earnings on fund assets... it's a payment.. a payout... so... while more and more folks are gonna be relying on defined contribution plans not SS or old style pensions.  if you make "regular" withdrawals from a defined contribution plan, i.e. an IRA.... that is not any different from an old style pension.  IRA's are defined in the US law as a retirement pension scheme. the passive income an IRA makes is not the only amount you get to withdraw, in fact, you must withdraw amounts but on a tax year basis... not monthly.  so I guess... I have to... that if you regularly withdraw from your IRA that is a receipt of money... and more than merely complies with both the US and Thai law and regulations.  notwithstanding any other sources of income.. i.e. Social Security or old style pensions... which are fixed usually... but in US dollars... not Thai Baht and that is something to think about. an IRA is not fixed... but it can be "regular".  and we get to swear to that. but this is Thailand.... so I wanted to survey what really goes on.. looks like the same ol same ol.

I'd like to clarify how I obtain & determine my annual, and thus monthly income derived from an IRA. I have reached the age of 70 and one half, which means for IRS purposes that I am required to take an annual required minimum distribution (RMD).  That RMD is calculated by my bank based on an IRS table that divides my previous EOY balance by my predicted life expectancy. My wife's age, who is younger than me, factors into my RMD.  In our case, the divisor of the RMD equation is 33.4,  and that resulting amount is how much I must withdraw this year.  I elected to have it paid in quarterly, identical installments.  The RMD gets recalculated every year, based on the account's EOY balance. I simply use this figure in calculating my total income for use in the Consulate affidavit. Pretty simple, no need to get overly technical and neither the Consulate nor Immigration have ever asked for proof or a breakdown.   I think many TV members agonize too much on this topic.  Best to keep things simple.  I'm sure the Thais are not interested in conducting more than a superficial probe into your individual situations. But you've got to be prepared if they should ask. 

[ubonjoe]

39 minutes ago, little mary sunshine said:

 

 

As as long as your Soc Sec and Investment Income or

other Private Pensions = 65,000 Bath per month you

are not required to show money in a Thai Bank Account

( Thai Immigration use 30Baht to the Dollar to calculate..

The post he was referring to was short on income which would require a bank account to meet the requirements.

Thai immigration use the exchange rate on the date you apply for the extension not a fixed number of 30 baht.

[Acharn]

On 10/25/2016 at 2:20 PM, IMA_FARANG said:

As U.S. retiree i get a Social security pension once i am over 65 years of age.

I  filed for mine in 2010 and now that am i staying in Thailand i have it direct deposited  to my Bangkok Bank account monthly.

I disclose this income on a U.S. embassy income affirmation statement which the Thai immigration accepts when i file for my annual retirement extension with the Thai immigration.

At present there is no confirmation needed for the embassy income affimation report, but i do get a yearly penefits statement by mail from the U.S. Social Security Administration.

Although it is not reqired by the Thai immigration I photocopy this and  have i ready to show them if they ask,.

Only once in 6 years have i been asked to show it as "futher proof".

As the moeny comes directly to my Bangkok Bank acount, my bank passbook could also act as a "proof" of my monthly pension income, as it shows the date, amount, and foriegn of the funds deposited to my account.

But basically, once i had it established monthly, thai immigration takes my income satement on faith alone each year at renewal time.

That may not be the case forever, but so far it is working well.

 

I have both my Social Security and my Army pension for length of service. I have them deposited directly in my credit union at the Pentagon. Back in 1998 or so, when they required all retirees to have a Thai bank account and submit a copy with your application for extension of stay (but not to deposit your money in it, funny that) I considered changing the direct deposit to BKK Bank. I decided not to because, in order to comply with US government safeguards against fraud, they require that the owner of the account go in person to make any withdrawal. I an not sure about the current situation, but I use the low-fee VISA card from my credit union to withdraw money each month through ATMs, since I fear the possibility of becoming bedridden and/or paralyzed. 

[Fore Man]

You raise good points, Acharn; I hadn't considered the aspect that you bring up of becoming bedridden or severely restricted in my mobility.  But it's another plus for living off ATM withdrawals and credit cards. 

[gk10002000]

17 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

The affidavit says this " United States Government and/or other sources".

So how would he be lying?

100% correct.  My gross error. 

 

Thanks

[chubby]

so, it is not necessary to show that an average of $65,000THB /mo has flowed into  Thailand  @ CW  during extension of stay  ONLY  that for a calendar year  there was  "income"  of said amount  that averages  out to  $65,000THB   at the present time (2018) ?

[gk10002000]

I don't plan to count withdrawals.  My plan is to list the income from dividends and interest which my Etrade account clearly lists from their "income estimator".  Now some of those dividends and interest are inside my IRAs and not in my regular brokerage account, so technically I would be making some withdrawals from one or more of my accounts.  But those withdrawals will only be amounts equal to the dividends and interest and not from selling underlying shares of a fund or stock.  For example I own a lot of NLY and T that account for over $20,000 in dividends at the moment and that is just 1/3 of my passive income.  I don't consider selling stuff as counting as income.  I know some people claim they by and sell and trade stocks or whatever and get income from that, or claim that since the market went up 7 % they earned 7%.   You can but that to me is outside the bounds of what would be considered regular retirement income. 

 

  Having said that, I believe that most Thais will expect to seem some sort of regular payment such as social security or a pension and they would expect to see that regularly going in to some bank account.   Few of the average working Thais will understand how I can now sit on my ass and get $60,000 in divvies and interest and that doesn't count social security which could start next year. 

[ubonjoe]

5 hours ago, chubby said:

so, it is not necessary to show that an average of $65,000THB /mo has flowed into  Thailand  @ CW  during extension of stay  ONLY  that for a calendar year  there was  "income"  of said amount  that averages  out to  $65,000THB   at the present time (2018) ?

You do not have to show you brought 65k baht into Thailand. You only need to show proof of 65k baht income by way on income document from your embassy and that is gross income.

[chubby]

1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

You do not have to show you brought 65k baht into Thailand. You only need to show proof of 65k baht income by way on income document from your embassy and that is gross income.

so, the CW officers just want the embassy letter,   and if they want "something more" it's OK , if that "income"  is outside the country  ,  like  Dividends and IRA distributions that are based in the US?

[ubonjoe]

47 minutes ago, chubby said:

so, the CW officers just want the embassy letter,   and if they want "something more" it's OK , if that "income"  is outside the country  ,  like  Dividends and IRA distributions that are based in the US?

The majority of immigration offices do not ask for backup proof to a income document.

If asked for it It  they would accept a bank statement from your home country bank showing money coming in. It does not have be going into a Thai bank.

[chubby]

so by "coming in" you don't mean into Thailand  but into  , for example, a US account ?

[ubonjoe]

24 minutes ago, chubby said:

so by "coming in" you don't mean into Thailand  but into  , for example, a US account ?

Into a account in the US.

[Thailand J]

On 3/29/2018 at 1:48 AM, gk10002000 said:

I don't plan to count withdrawals.  My plan is to list the income from dividends and interest which my Etrade account clearly lists from their "income estimator".  Now some of those dividends and interest are inside my IRAs and not in my regular brokerage account, so technically I would be making some withdrawals from one or more of my accounts.  But those withdrawals will only be amounts equal to the dividends and interest and not from selling underlying shares of a fund or stock.  For example I own a lot of NLY and T that account for over $20,000 in dividends at the moment and that is just 1/3 of my passive income.  I don't consider selling stuff as counting as income.  I know some people claim they by and sell and trade stocks or whatever and get income from that, or claim that since the market went up 7 % they earned 7%.   You can but that to me is outside the bounds of what would be considered regular retirement income. 

 

  Having said that, I believe that most Thais will expect to seem some sort of regular payment such as social security or a pension and they would expect to see that regularly going in to some bank account.   Few of the average working Thais will understand how I can now sit on my ass and get $60,000 in divvies and interest and that doesn't count social security which could start next year. 

 

 

You and your dividends.

Probably you are focusing too much on the dividends, not enough diversification, and have missed the best years in stock market.

In the last 5 years NLY stock price had went from 16 to 10 and T  from 38 to 36. During those years index funds and ETF’s following DJIA ,S&P 500 and Nasdaq advanced almost 100%. ..doubled the bet. They were low cost, diversified and paid 1.5 to 2% dividend, low but much better then bank CD’s. $70k to $90k a year is more then enough for me anyway. While the total stock market had the best rally, you were not in it.

As long as you are happy with the high dividends..stock market is not for everyone anyway, and we don;t know which way it is going next.

To me “income” on the embassy affidavit can be any proceed that you are entitled to. To sell stocks systematically to fund retirement is poor planning … having no cash reserve and having to sell disregard of where the market is at , but still is retirement income. Income from an IRA distribution can also be from the redemption of the  stocks in the account.

[gk10002000]

13 hours ago, Thailand J said:

 

 

You and your dividends.

 

Probably you are focusing too much on the dividends, not enough diversification, and have missed the best years in stock market.

 

In the last 5 years NLY stock price had went from 16 to 10 and T  from 38 to 36. During those years index funds and ETF’s following DJIA ,S&P 500 and Nasdaq advanced almost 100%. ..doubled the bet. They were low cost, diversified and paid 1.5 to 2% dividend, low but much better then bank CD’s. $70k to $90k a year is more then enough for me anyway. While the total stock market had the best rally, you were not in it.

 

As long as you are happy with the high dividends..stock market is not for everyone anyway, and we don;t know which way it is going next.

 

To me “income” on the embassy affidavit can be any proceed that you are entitled to. To sell stocks systematically to fund retirement is poor planning … having no cash reserve and having to sell disregard of where the market is at , but still is retirement income. Income from an IRA distribution can also be from the redemption of the  stocks in the account.

 

NLY is only 8% of my portfolio.  I don't focus on high stuff.  I just simpley "brute force" invest for income in bonds, tax free munis, etc. 

[chubby]

On 3/28/2018 at 10:20 PM, ubonjoe said:

Into a account in the US.

Joe, permit  me  to  addendum question, which I did a TV search for, and have asked in the past, ....... in  the USA  there  are  IRA accounts,  from which if inherited  folks,  are required to take a "minimum distribution"  based on life expectancy,  which  is what I do ...

 

However, this isn't a 'return on investment'  per se , (which to me is  one of the definitions  of "income"  e.g.  interest , dividends, and possibly  capital gains ...... )

 

As, perhaps, you know.  It's simply a movement of money  from  a  Tax-deferred  account to a Taxable account.    But, if   there were any confirmed cases  of this being OK or not OK  to use towards  the affidavid at USEmbassy,  sure would be nice to know,  as in my case,  with it, I have the income.

Without I would not ...... and I prefer to be honest , if I commit  to  long term ex-pat  status  .......

 

in Sum:

Can US  IRA distributions  be  used toward the   "monthly income" minimums  for an extension of stay  /  US Embassy  Affidavid certification ..... 2018

[onera1961]

On 10/25/2016 at 2:07 AM, Jingthing said:

when you take money out of an IRA, you claim that as income that year for tax purposes.

It is claimed as income because it was never taxed for income. So it must be taxed at some point. Withdrawal from Roth IRA is not income because it is already taxed for income

[Jingthing]

6 minutes ago, onera1961 said:

It is claimed as income because it was never taxed for income. So it must be taxed at some point. Withdrawal from Roth IRA is not income because it is already taxed for income

I don't have Roth, but I still think it might be reportable income but not taxable. Not sure if that's true. There are many things on tax forms that are not taxable though. 

[onera1961]

43 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I don't have Roth, but I still think it might be reportable income but not taxable. Not sure if that's true. There are many things on tax forms that are not taxable though. 

For Thai retirement visa, yes. I think any income including regular 401 distributions should be counted as retirement income. But for US tax purposes, Roth withdrawal is not income

[Thailand J]

For US tax purposes, Roth distribution is  income, but non taxable.

 

Roth IRA withdrawal goes to Line 15a under "Income" on IRS Form 1040.

Line 15a is non taxable. Distribution from traditional IRA goes to Line 15b which is taxable.

 

I don't believe only taxable income can go on the embassy affidavit. Some military pension, disablility benefit, annuity, municipal dividend, part of Social Security ..there are many types of non taxable income.

[TGIR]

To put everyone's mind at ease, at least for the Feds..........a Notary seal on a document means ONLY that you have proved you are the person signing the document, nothing else.  No-one at the Embassy is going to ask you to prove the contents of the document.

 

Immigration is a different matter as they may ask for proof of any document you give them.

[ubonjoe]

3 hours ago, chubby said:

Can US  IRA distributions  be  used toward the   "monthly income" minimums  for an extension of stay  /  US Embassy  Affidavid certification ..... 2018

Yes you can.

[Jingthing]

For US tax purposes, Roth distribution is  income, but non taxable.
 
Roth IRA withdrawal goes to Line 15a under "Income" on IRS Form 1040.
Line 15a is non taxable. Distribution from traditional IRA goes to Line 15b which is taxable.
 
I don't believe only taxable income can go on the embassy affidavit. Some military pension, disablility benefit, annuity, municipal dividend, part of Social Security ..there are many types of non taxable income.

Exactly as I thought. Thanks.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Fore Man]

16 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Exactly as I thought. Thanks.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Absolutely.  I’ve been using various pension streams, including SS and DFAS, for years and never had any issues. Neither the Consulate nor Immigration has ever questioned my annual affidavits or asked for any income details. But...it may be wise to have your W-2s, tax returns and/or monthly statements readied just in case...

[chubby]

What if you were to go for your Extension of Stay  Sept 2018,  for a 1 year stamp expiring Oct 2018  on an original O-A that expired Sept 2017 .

 

Would I bring Quarterly Investment statements from my US Investment Firm going back 1 year or does it matter if it is "year to date  YTD"  income  vs. a 1 calendar year lookback ?