Why doesn't Thailand offer Permanent Residency base on marriage?

[connda]

As I'm pushing 10 years in Thailand and have establish my home and life with my Thai family (wife, stepson, daughter-in-law, grand-daughter, in-laws, and extended family), I find it difficult to understand why Thailand has no path to permanent residency based on marriage.  From what research I've done, Thailand is one of the few countries in the world that does not offer a path to permanent residency base on being married to a native of that country.  Having establish my life here with my Thal family, I still live year to year, visa to visa, 90 day report to 90 day report, TM30 to TM30, fee to fee, fine to fine (after all these years my wife is fined for not submitting a TM30).  My life has no stability, consistency, or security. Being unable to shed the Non-Immigrant status, I and others like me are here at the whim of government.  I don't enjoy living like an outsider, and from a basic human rights point of view it's pretty callous. It's a pathetic way to have to live.   As the drop in the British pound has shown, all it takes is a serious economic downturn and many of us who have been supporting Thai families for years could find ourselves kicked out of the country and ripped away from the family and lives we have established.  So why is there no path to residency for the spouses of Thai women who have been in Thailand for 10 years or longer as there is in all developed and most developing countries?  I just don't get it - what possibly could be the reason?  I can't be the only person in this situation who feels this way.  Living with this constant uncertainly is like living with the Sword of Damocles hanging over your head.  If I hadn't gotten married to a Thai, if I hadn't establish a family, I wouldn't care.  But I'm anchored here by family.  Where is the humanity?  Where is the respect for family which is a basic human right?

 

I'm sure someone will say, "Apply for a PR".  The PR is a bureaucratic nightmare, one that I attempted unsuccessfully when I did quality, but one that I no longer qualify for.  It's not an option.

Edited November 4, 2016 by connda

[SaintLouisBlues]

My brother bought a house near an airport. Now he spends all his time complaining about the noise of the planes flying overhead. It is the way it is. You've spent 10 years in Thailand. Surely you've realized that by now?

[connda]

14 minutes ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

My brother bought a house near an airport. Now he spends all his time complaining about the noise of the planes flying overhead. It is the way it is. You've spent 10 years in Thailand. Surely you've realized that by now?

I married the year that I came to Thailand, well before I understood the inflexibility of the immigration system.  Since then, it's been a learning process. Now I'm looking at this thought the lens of basic human rights.  International human rights organizations view families as "institutions to be protected", which is to say that a family, once established, should not be under the constant threat of being broken apart.  And yet, here we are. 

Edited November 4, 2016 by connda

[SaintLouisBlues]

1 minute ago, connda said:

I married the year that I came to Thailand, well before I understood the inflexibility of the immigration system.  Since then, it's been a learning process. 

Hence my last sentence - "surely you've realized that by now?". You're wife's a Thai national. Get her to lobby her local MP (that's a joke, by the way, in case you didn't realize)

[tonray]

If based on marriage what happens if divorced?  Do they revoke it?  This is why you cannot have PR based upon marriage because marriage is only permanent less than 50% of the time 

[SaintLouisBlues]

Just now, tonray said:

If based on marriage what happens if divorced?  Do they revoke it?  This is why you cannot have PR based upon marriage because marriage is only permanent less than 50% of the time 

Other countries give PR based on the relationship existing at the time of the grant. Any subsequent life events (divorce, death) don't mean the original decision is revisited. In fact the immigrant spouse who gains PR can divorce, re-marry another immigrant, get PR for that person and so on. In Australia you can only get away with that twice in a lifetime however

[connda]

25 minutes ago, tonray said:

If based on marriage what happens if divorced?  Do they revoke it?  This is why you cannot have PR based upon marriage because marriage is only permanent less than 50% of the time 

And yet that is not the case in virtually all other countries that grant PR based on marriage, which is most countries in the world.  What if my wife dies before me.  In most other counties you are protected.  Again, it's a basic human right not to dissolve a family unit because your spouse has died.  If my spouse dies,  is my step-son no longer my step-son?  Is my grand-daughter no longer my grand-daughter?  When I crossed the border to enter Thailand, did I give up my basic human rights? And yet here in Thailand if my spouse dies before me my marriage is invalidated which effectively divorces me from my family.  Correct me if I'm wrong?  And yet in what other civilized countries is the family unit dissolved due to the death of a spouse?  And with that dissolution also goes all certainty that you can remain with your established family unit. In Thailand you relegated back to the status of a long-stay tourist.

Edited November 4, 2016 by connda

[ozmeldo]

It's backward and intolerant. I understand there are some who try to game the system but compare this to other nations or Thais that go to other countries and game their system. My wife/self know of persons in both US and Korea working on overstay. Came in as tourists with no intention of sightseeing.

 

I personally think PR based on give years of marriage is very do.able for Thailand. Truth is, even if you are working we are not wanted for a variety of reasons.

 

Until we get together and lobby  our governments to pressure Thailand nothing will change.

 

My wife has less hassle visiting US with me than I do living here and I'm working as well. It is truly ridiculous.

 

Current government could have pushed through some updated, modern laws related to foreigners for residency and small business. Instead it's well... nevermind...

[impulse]

To us, it looks like a guy is to be applauded for taking on the financial upkeep of a Thai woman and family.

 

To them, it looks like some foreigner has deprived a Thai guy of the opportunity to have a family with her.

 

Perhaps they don't really want to encourage that by offering incentives like PR?

 

Edit:  Just to be clear, I don't agree with it.  But I do see the twisted logic of it.

Edited November 4, 2016 by impulse

[Briggsy]

Because you don't earn enough and pay enough tax.

Money talks. The other stuff walks.

Set up a company. Pay yourself a salary. Employ some Thais. Pay all the other fees and necessities. Fill in all the forms. Jump all the hoops. You will get your permanent residency eventually.

[IMA_FARANG]

There s a procedure based on Permanent residemce you can obtain.

But their are other rules for that process.

Part of it is working in Thailand and a proven record of paying Thai taxes into the tax system for a set time.

That is not required by marriage to a Thai national, but is part of a permanent residency requirement.

Many countries have such requirements, the U.S. and the U.K. included.

I may agree with what you say, but there are restrictions on the rights to bringing family members into the country such as brothers and sisters of your spouse.

That is their rules.

 

 

 

 

[Don Mega]

I thought one could apply for PR based on support of family or humanitarian reasons.

 

Is this no longer the case ?

[1FinickyOne]

Connda - your post sounds a bit dramatic... I have been here longer than you, live with a Thai family as well, but I always feel as though I am a guest here and appreciate that the laws are so easy to allow me to stay w/o having to leave. I go to immigration once a year, I go to the post office every 90 days... sure, I would rather not but the inconvenience is sooo small for the great privilege I am given of being able to live here... no, I am not kidding.

 

Funny though, where I see a privilege, you see a "violation of your human rights" - for a Burmese fisherman, being in a situation of forced labor and living in slavery when he is just trying to support his family - that is a violation of human rights... going to the post office every 90 days, well, not so much so as far as I can see... 

 

Sorry you are so troubled. It ain't your country, it ain't my country - I just respect and follow the rules.. 

[ubonjoe]

6 minutes ago, Don Mega said:

I thought one could apply for PR based on support of family or humanitarian reasons.

 

Is this no longer the case ?

You can apply for PR if married to a Thai. The only advantage is that the income requirement is lower. You still have to be working with a work permit and paying taxes. Once approved the fee for the residence certificate is also lower.

If you can qualify for PR you can also apply for Thai citizenship and the income requirement is only 40k baht.

[Don Mega]

7 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

You can apply for PR if married to a Thai. The only advantage is that the income requirement is lower. You still have to be working with a work permit and paying taxes. Once approved the fee for the residence certificate is also lower.

If you can qualify for PR you can also apply for Thai citizenship and the income requirement is only 40k baht.

Thanks Joe, I was not sure so your clarification is appreciated.

[arithai12]

The OP is right, it is a bit of a shame. May I add that in some european countries, at least in mine, it is possible to apply not just for residency but directly for citizenship after 10 years that you live there continuously as a law-abiding citizen, and without the need to be married to a national. Thailand is much harder in this respect.

 

It would be best to learn about the requirements BEFORE deciding to move here, to marry a Thai, to buy a house in the spouse's name - how many times we hear of foreigners basically stripped off of their assets once the marriage breaks down.  If more people knew what is in store, I suppose they would think twice.

 

I am pessimistic that rules will change, mainly because the influx of tourists who decide "hey I'd like to live here" is so large that the government doesn't need to worry about the trickle of those who think it's not worthy the risk.

[arithai12]

48 minutes ago, kenk24 said:

Connda - your post sounds a bit dramatic... I have been here longer than you, live with a Thai family as well, but I always feel as though I am a guest here and appreciate that the laws are so easy to allow me to stay w/o having to leave. I go to immigration once a year, I go to the post office every 90 days... sure, I would rather not but the inconvenience is sooo small for the great privilege I am given of being able to live here... no, I am not kidding.

 

Funny though, where I see a privilege, you see a "violation of your human rights" - for a Burmese fisherman, being in a situation of forced labor and living in slavery when he is just trying to support his family - that is a violation of human rights... going to the post office every 90 days, well, not so much so as far as I can see... 

 

Sorry you are so troubled. It ain't your country, it ain't my country - I just respect and follow the rules.. 

I think the point is not the trouble of going to Imm for the visa or the reports. It is the uncertainty. Even you, so happy at the moment, could find yourself in dire straits if something changes in your family situation or if the government decides to tweak some parameter.

[LukKrueng]

Seems the OP and all replies miss one main point. Most western countries and probably some non western as well, are migration countries, to which you can apply for migration visa for many different reasons. I know people who have migrated to Australia, New Zealand, US of A, Canada and many more countries - without marrying locals. They planned the move while still at their home countries, applied for the correct visa and proceeded with the process until getting the citizenship. Thailand, like other countries as Japan, is NOT a migration country, and there is no such visa or a procedure to migrate into Thailand. Not going into "good or bad", just stating the facts. However, Thailand does recognize to some extent the movement of people in the world and does allow changing to migration status in some cases. However, the basic rule is that working and paying tax for a minimum number of years is a must. For the OP - if you were working here legally during the time you are here, you'd be able to apply for PR by now, maybe even get a citizenship. Not an easy process, but not impossible. It is much harder in Japan for example, where you can never become a citizen, and even becoming a PR is harder than in Thailand.

[jgold]

I think if a lot of people started protesting and sending emails to their embassy something might be done. 

My country lets Thais marry and get a citizenship within 3 yrs, buy land, own a business and many privileges our citizens do not get here.

If every expat in Thailand would raise this with their perspective embassy this would get them to start talking about it and maybe go to the Thai government and say 'Hey this is not fair".

 

Taiwan for example has a law that lets foreigners own land ONLY if the country of the foreigner lets Taiwanese citizens buy land there too. 

[captspectre]

connada, I agree fully with what you have said, unfortunately the Thai gov't does not give a tinkers dam what the falangs think! all they want is our money and nothing else! I do not see a change in the laws in this life time. it has been this way for the forty four years I have been in Thailand!  we just have to get used to it. that is the one big reason i keep all my bank account in the U.S. except for the one i use here for living expenses! one plus is that if every thing goes south and a revolution happens we can jsut up and leave until it is over! the thai's have no such way out.

[Borzandy]

Maybe, because a marriage is never permanent....

[Farang99]

Why should they grant PR based on anything at all? Thailand is a sovereign nation and needs take no notice of what other countries offer. It has its own laws and sees no need to change them for a bunch of people who are tired of living under the constant threat of losing their permission to stay here.

[NanLaew]

5 hours ago, connda said:

... The PR is a bureaucratic nightmare, one that I attempted unsuccessfully when I did quality, but one that I no longer qualify for.  It's not an option.

Plenty of others have managed the bureaucracy, including yearly extensions and 90-day reports.

 

1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

You can apply for PR if married to a Thai. The only advantage is that the income requirement is lower. You still have to be working with a work permit and paying taxes. Once approved the fee for the residence certificate is also lower.

If you can qualify for PR you can also apply for Thai citizenship and the income requirement is only 40k baht.

Based on the above, how does the OP 'no longer qualify' fort PR?

 

51 minutes ago, jgold said:

I think if a lot of people started protesting and sending emails to their embassy something might be done. 

My country lets Thais marry and get a citizenship within 3 yrs, buy land, own a business and many privileges our citizens do not get here.

If every expat in Thailand would raise this with their perspective embassy this would get them to start talking about it and maybe go to the Thai government and say 'Hey this is not fair".

 

Taiwan for example has a law that lets foreigners own land ONLY if the country of the foreigner lets Taiwanese citizens buy land there too. 

It doesn't matter what your country or Taiwan does. Get a translation of the Thai national anthem. It's all in there.

[williamgeorgeallen]

5 hours ago, tonray said:

If based on marriage what happens if divorced?  Do they revoke it?  This is why you cannot have PR based upon marriage because marriage is only permanent less than 50% of the time 

 from what i have seen probably more than 80% western/thai relationships end in less 10 years. i know a few that have gone past 10 years but even those are because kids are involved. so i guess this is a fair point about what happens to permanent residents after divorce. what happens in other countries? do permanent residents keep there residency status?

[williamgeorgeallen]

18 minutes ago, Farang99 said:

Why should they grant PR based on anything at all? Thailand is a sovereign nation and needs take no notice of what other countries offer. It has its own laws and sees no need to change them for a bunch of people who are tired of living under the constant threat of losing their permission to stay here.

they are going to have to do something at some stage as the birth rate has fallen to about 1.6, no where near what thailand needs to sustain its population. economies with falling populations generally dont preform very well.

[1FinickyOne]

1 hour ago, arithai12 said:

I think the point is not the trouble of going to Imm for the visa or the reports. It is the uncertainty. Even you, so happy at the moment, could find yourself in dire straits if something changes in your family situation or if the government decides to tweak some parameter.

 

Nobody anywhere every guaranteed me certainty in anything I have ever encountered in life. In my home country, where I owned land, I was taxed on the land and sometimes to the extent that it became difficult to sell due to the high taxes and poor school district that we were supporting... 

 

Certainty? In this world - I am a little too old and a lot too experienced to expect certainty. The house I built is for my wife. I understood from day one that it was a gift to her. And a gift that I was pleased to be able to give. And can walk away from tomorrow with my head high if I had to... to expect certainty anywhere is a bit immature and the idea that I might move to a foreign country and expect them to change their laws to suit me as a foreigner, seems beyond silly. I am pretty sure if I worked for years, I could not change the laws in my own country... I think it takes a lot of gall to think that any foreign sovereign country would change laws to suit me and I would never consider asking... however, I remain very appreciative and thankful that the laws they have allow me to stay here with a minimal effort... 

[impulse]

25 minutes ago, Farang99 said:

Why should they grant PR based on anything at all? Thailand is a sovereign nation and needs take no notice of what other countries offer. It has its own laws and sees no need to change them for a bunch of people who are tired of living under the constant threat of losing their permission to stay here.

 

Perhaps because serious investment money hates uncertainty.  

 

Removing one of the obstacles to investment may even open up the purse strings of wealthy expats who already stay here because they actually like the place.

 

It wouldn't be a humanitarian move.  It would be a selfish move, with favorable side effects on some expats.

[ubonjoe]

5 hours ago, tonray said:

If based on marriage what happens if divorced?  Do they revoke it?  This is why you cannot have PR based upon marriage because marriage is only permanent less than 50% of the time 

Once PR is obtained it would still be valid if divorced.

You no longer need to maintain the basis you applied for it on in any case after it is approved.

[louse1953]

5 hours ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

Other countries give PR based on the relationship existing at the time of the grant. Any subsequent life events (divorce, death) don't mean the original decision is revisited. In fact the immigrant spouse who gains PR can divorce, re-marry another immigrant, get PR for that person and so on. In Australia you can only get away with that twice in a lifetime however

Last sentence not quite true.After 2 wives have immigrated the 3rd is reviewed.

[SaintLouisBlues]

3 minutes ago, louse1953 said:

Last sentence not quite true.After 2 wives have immigrated the 3rd is reviewed.

Yes, just reviewed that and you are correct except in one regard. The word "wife" is nowhere mentioned