Why doesn't Thailand offer Permanent Residency base on marriage?

[Jane Dough]

I think it is time to make PR available to people married here but not working. Retirees would fit into this. Then their pensions should be taxed when brought into the country. Thirty per cent would seem fair. 

[gk10002000]

Just now, Jane Dough said:

I think it is time to make PR available to people married here but not working. Retirees would fit into this. Then their pensions should be taxed when brought into the country. Thirty per cent would seem fair. 

My fellow American friend got his and his wife Canadian Residency (pardon me if I use the incorrect term) and he moved up there and kind of retired.  They had a waiting period, some financial things to show, etc.  He brought a lot of money up there, built a home, a small bed and breakfast, runs the local volunteer fire department, etc.  Being an American he can't dodge the USA IRS so he has to deal with them, and of course since he is doing business in Canada all the Canadian tax laws too.  I doubt Canada taxes his USA social security.   He is up in Egmont, in BC.  

[Krataiboy]

6 hours ago, impulse said:

To us, it looks like a guy is to be applauded for taking on the financial upkeep of a Thai woman and family.

 

To them, it looks like some foreigner has deprived a Thai guy of the opportunity to have a family with her.

 

Perhaps they don't really want to encourage that by offering incentives like PR?

 

Edit:  Just to be clear, I don't agree with it.  But I do see the twisted logic of it.

 

 

 

I agree - except for the bit about us "depriving Thai men" of desirable partners. 

 

Most of the Thai women I know who are married to falangs would have difficulty acquiring a Thai husband,  because they are too old (mid-twenties or over) and routinely have at least one child by a former Thai partner who walked out - all too often leaving them literally holding the baby with no means of financial support.

 

Clearly, the "white knights" who rescue these Thai damsels are providing a useful social service -  though not one that is generally acknowledged, let alone appreciated, either by most Thai men (whose opinion of us is that we are suckers) or by successive male-dominated governments.  

 

Never mind, our wives and stepchildren love us - don't they?

[williamgeorgeallen]

54 minutes ago, possum1931 said:

"what happens in other countries"? This topic is only about people who are married in Thailand, there are other countries that make it easier to get PR through marriage, The Philipines ie.

and probably other countries who make it harder.

would seem fair to make ease of residency the same as the home country of the people applying for it. really it seems there is always a way to stay in thailand as long as you keep your head down and have the money to support yourself. good idea to have contingency plans as well for a quick departure if required of course.

[Grubster]

8 hours ago, connda said:

I married the year that I came to Thailand, well before I understood the inflexibility of the immigration system.  Since then, it's been a learning process. Now I'm looking at this thought the lens of basic human rights.  International human rights organizations view families as "institutions to be protected", which is to say that a family, once established, should not be under the constant threat of being broken apart.  And yet, here we are. 

Surely you have noticed in many other areas of government that basic human rights are only talked about here.  Good luck as I am in your boat also but do have a bail out plan. Maybe some day they will see the light and let those of us that spend and provide here live normal lives.

[watcharacters]

3 hours ago, Borzandy said:

Maybe, because a marriage is never permanent....

 

 

 

Thanks,

 

 

Thant's exactly  WHY..

[SoiBiker]

Sometimes this kind of thing seems less about the details of having to visit immigration etc, and more about "Why isn't Thailand more grateful for my presence?"

 

Maybe you're just not as important to Thailand as you think you are.

[4MyEgo]

4 hours ago, LukKrueng said:

Seems the OP and all replies miss one main point. Most western countries and probably some non western as well, are migration countries, to which you can apply for migration visa for many different reasons. I know people who have migrated to Australia, New Zealand, US of A, Canada and many more countries - without marrying locals. They planned the move while still at their home countries, applied for the correct visa and proceeded with the process until getting the citizenship. Thailand, like other countries as Japan, is NOT a migration country, and there is no such visa or a procedure to migrate into Thailand. Not going into "good or bad", just stating the facts. However, Thailand does recognize to some extent the movement of people in the world and does allow changing to migration status in some cases. However, the basic rule is that working and paying tax for a minimum number of years is a must. For the OP - if you were working here legally during the time you are here, you'd be able to apply for PR by now, maybe even get a citizenship. Not an easy process, but not impossible. It is much harder in Japan for example, where you can never become a citizen, and even becoming a PR is harder than in Thailand.

 

Well said, one has to always compare worse case scenario's.

 

I have been living here for a year and feel more welcome here than I did in my country of birth, where I felt like I was a machine in a production line, working crazy hours to meet stupid deadlines, and paid ridiculous taxes for the benefits of others.

 

I have 2 children with my wife and twin step sons, have built a house and purchased a car, I really haven't thought about permanent residency or citizenship, I have a retirement visa, I do the 90 day reporting, sure its a little bit of a pain, an hour 30 drive to immigration for no more than 5 minutes to get the new piece of paper in my passport, I live with that and accept Thailand is how it is, no country is perfect, and as long as I am granted a yearly retirement visa, till I die, I will live with it, who are we to come here and tell them, look this is how it is done overseas, because I know the response would be something like, "up to you" in other words, you don't like it, f-off, simple really. 

 

My wife has dual citizenship as do our two kids, and if the government ever turned around and said I have to go, then so be it, Thailand is not my country, I am a guest here for as long as they allow me to be, and see myself having another 10-15 years of free air, "powers above willing". I think it would be highly unlikely that Thailand would throw out farangs that are married to Thai's, after all, we do provide support for them and in some cases their families.

 

My advise is, just enjoy Thailand for what it is, we all came her to escape the western civilisation, and to have a freer and more affordable life, so do what we came here for and leave the politics to the politicians, and if they ever grant us PR as they do overseas, well that's a plus.

 

 

[lungnorm]

This is one of the reasons I retired to the Philippines, similar climate, more English speakers and yes obtain P.R in less than 2yrs just by marriage to a Philippina. No assets or income required.

[NoshowJones]

41 minutes ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

would seem fair to make ease of residency the same as the home country of the people applying for it. really it seems there is always a way to stay in thailand as long as you keep your head down and have the money to support yourself. good idea to have contingency plans as well for a quick departure if required of course.

"really it seems there is always a way to stay in thailand". Although it does not apply to me, I think the Thai government is very unfair on the people who want to stay here long term and are under fifty. Instead of hitting them, they should be coming down hard on the illegal workers, and those working without work permits.

[koolkarl]

Move to Canada. You and your sweety will be instant immigrants and citizens in a couple of years. And if

you get divorced there, they couldn't care less.  

Here  you only have a 1 year tourist visa, married , working or sitting in a rocking chair.  Wife or job disappear,

so does your visa.  If I were you, would never pay for a house or anything else expensive as  your visa could disappear

overnight.  

It is rather obvious, certain people in the government don't want foreigners here permanently otherwise you would be an

immigrant based on marriage.  

[SaintLouisBlues]

1 hour ago, gk10002000 said:

I doubt Canada taxes his USA social security.

The USA/Canada Tax Treaty would apply

[lostinisaan]

1 hour ago, possum1931 said:

I agree that you do have to take chances in life, and I am always critical of people of a certain faith coming into countries and then expecting them to change their laws and customs to suit them, I would not dream of trying anything like that over here, as I said, I agree with every word the OP has written, and think this country should be more fair with us expats.

 

 

    Living here and being married for 15 years, plus working for 12 years and paying taxes doesn't change the situation.

 

   Thailand without sex tourists, temple viewers, expats and ordinary tourists would be similar to Burma.

 

   Some changes should be done and by offering a 5-year visa for example for those who contributed enough money into this system wouldn't be a big deal for the government. But not for 500 K. Insanity pure. 

 

  The OP's points are all great and some will find out how bad our reputation and social status really is when we get seriously sick, or somebody does a hit and run to any of us. 

 

   None of us is getting younger. 

 

  

    

    

[Autonuaq]

Thailand is the same as other countries.

There is a way and for whatever reason, you do not want to follow that way. We do respect that all

 

You say that you are staying for ten years

married by law not sure if that is the fact

paid taxes also no sure if you did do that

 

Permanent residence is the way to go, and after that you are able of be coming of a Thai National.

All is fair, and how to do takes time as well some background checks of your past.

So actually not understand what is it you still have not arranged what you want.

 

 

 

[Pilotman]

Connda, I understand your frustration. My wife ( Thai born and now a British Citizen) have started to see the down side of retiring to Thailand. The more I read about the carry on that the rest of my older life will be to maintain permission to live in Thailand the more unattractive it becomes. As to why, it goes to the Thai psychological attitude to the rest of the World, paranoia at ever being in the thrall of a foreign power, the essential selfishness of Buhidism in terms of its concentration on 'self' and the Thai class system, where the elite is even more afraid of the power of the common people than in almost any other country in the World. Put this all together and you can see why  we westerners are barely tolerated. 

[NoshowJones]

1 hour ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

would seem fair to make ease of residency the same as the home country of the people applying for it. really it seems there is always a way to stay in thailand as long as you keep your head down and have the money to support yourself. good idea to have contingency plans as well for a quick departure if required of course.

"really it seems there is always a way to stay in thailand". Although it does not apply to me, I think the Thai government is very unfair on the people who want to stay here long term and are under fifty. Instead of hitting them, they should be coming down hard on the illegal workers, and those working without work permits.

[NoshowJones]

27 minutes ago, lostinisaan said:

 

    Living here and being married for 15 years, plus working for 12 years and paying taxes doesn't change the situation.

 

   Thailand without sex tourists, temple viewers, expats and ordinary tourists would be similar to Burma.

 

   Some changes should be done and by offering a 5-year visa for example for those who contributed enough money into this system wouldn't be a big deal for the government. But not for 500 K. Insanity pure. 

 

  The OP's points are all great and some will find out how bad our reputation and social status really is when we get seriously sick, or somebody does a hit and run to any of us. 

 

   None of us is getting younger. 

 

  

    

    

Excellent post Sir.

[tonray]

10 hours ago, connda said:

And yet that is not the case in virtually all other countries that grant PR based on marriage, which is most countries in the world.  What if my wife dies before me.  In most other counties you are protected.  Again, it's a basic human right not to dissolve a family unit because your spouse has died.  If my spouse dies,  is my step-son no longer my step-son?  Is my grand-daughter no longer my grand-daughter?  When I crossed the border to enter Thailand, did I give up my basic human rights? And yet here in Thailand if my spouse dies before me my marriage is invalidated which effectively divorces me from my family.  Correct me if I'm wrong?  And yet in what other civilized countries is the family unit dissolved due to the death of a spouse?  And with that dissolution also goes all certainty that you can remain with your established family unit. In Thailand you relegated back to the status of a long-stay tourist.

Basic Human right ? There is no such law as far as I know in the world.

[LukKrueng]

2 hours ago, jonclark said:

 

 

We know what our rights should be, but are scared of claiming them - So we resort to ranting on web forums. 

 

 

your rights are what's written in the law books of the country where you're at. If you fit the bill to apply for PR then you have the right to apply. They, however, also have the right to refuse... 

[JackThompson]

9 hours ago, impulse said:

To us, it looks like a guy is to be applauded for taking on the financial upkeep of a Thai woman and family.

To them, it looks like some foreigner has deprived a Thai guy of the opportunity to have a family with her. ...

 

If the Thai men stayed with the women they had children with, there would be a lot fewer Thai women looking/happy to marry foreign men.  That is the case with all the foreigner-marriages and relationships I know, personally - a Thai guy knocked her up and ran away. 

 

Foreigners rarely come in and snatch away young virgins here - more like "clean up the mess" left by a local guy.  And they willing to do it, because Thai women are generally far superior partners as compared what is "on offer" back at home, in every respect.

 

My perception is that Thai men are spoiled by having a choice of wonderful women who will take great care of them, while Western men come from countries / decaying-cultures where most our women have been changed into something no longer recognizable as "wife material."

 

Someone mentioned the Philippines.  The issue I had with the charming ladies I dated there, is they all wanted to "move to my country" and then chain-migrate the family there.  It seemed lost on them that I was "in the PI" because I did not want to live "back home" any more.  After explaining this, they were very disappointed, and that was generally our last conversation.

[JackThompson]

3 hours ago, CaptHaddock said:

The countries that, in the past, have had more open borders were those that had chronic labor shortages which they partially remedied through immigration, such as the US...

 

I cannot speak to the others, but no such shortage existed in the USA.  There was an over-supply of "middle-class careers" in blue-collar fields, however, which the corporations "fixed" by flooding our labor-market with foreigners, driving millions into "hand-to-mouth" poverty-survival.  White-collar careers are under-siege, due to outsourcing plus a type of visa called "H1B", such that accountants and tech citizen's lives and families are being systematically-destroyed.

 

You may read a statistic which says "median incomes have remained flat" - but what is missing is, that "median income" used to reflect one 40-hour paycheck from "dad."  Today, it reflects 2 paychecks from "dad" plus one more from "mom" - so 2.5x to 3x more work for the same money, with the attendant destruction of families that this economic-reality could be predicted to inflict.

[williamgeorgeallen]

1 hour ago, possum1931 said:

"really it seems there is always a way to stay in thailand". Although it does not apply to me, I think the Thai government is very unfair on the people who want to stay here long term and are under fifty. Instead of hitting them, they should be coming down hard on the illegal workers, and those working without work permits.

anyone who has the means to stop working to stay in thailand can surly afford the 100 000thb  for the elite visa. it has to be one of the cheapest long term visa i have ever heard of.  thats only 3000usd per year.

[JackThompson]

1 minute ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

anyone who has the means to stop working to stay in thailand can surly afford the 100 000thb  for the elite visa. it has to be one of the cheapest long term visa i have ever heard of.  thats only 3000usd per year.

Anyone who has 30K to 40K Baht / mo of income from investments has a spare 500K to spend on a visa?  I think not.

 

Do I need to list all the other year+ visas that can be obtained in the region, and renewed in perpetuity, for a few hundred dollars / yr?  Or the very attractive "investment" visas such as in Malaysia and the Philippines?

[Bangkok Barry]

21 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

 

If the Thai men stayed with the women they had children with, there would be a lot fewer Thai women looking/happy to marry foreign men.  That is the case with all the foreigner-marriages and relationships I know, personally - a Thai guy knocked her up and ran away. 

 

Foreigners rarely come in and snatch away young virgins here - more like "clean up the mess" left by a local guy.

 

 

 

Yes. Strange, isn't it, when we're told that Thai families are so close when at the same time that situation is rampant. Vast numbers of abandoned single mothers around. But then Thai men are brought up to believe they can do whatever they like so no-one should be surprised. And no doubt those abandoned single mothers bring their son up in the same way to perpetuate the situation.....

[NoshowJones]

28 minutes ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

anyone who has the means to stop working to stay in thailand can surly afford the 100 000thb  for the elite visa. it has to be one of the cheapest long term visa i have ever heard of.  thats only 3000usd per year.

Absolute rubbish.

You must think all these under fifties are very rich'

100.000 for ten years and nothing in return and still

have to to the criminal conviction routine.

[jonclark]

1 hour ago, LukKrueng said:

your rights are what's written in the law books of the country where you're at. If you fit the bill to apply for PR then you have the right to apply. They, however, also have the right to refuse... 

 

Well then, considering Thailand has signed and ratified the UN Convention on Human Rights, You;d imagine that as Thailand is has signed and ratified 5 of the 7 Human Rights principles into National Law - Including CERD. That the level of in equality between Thais and other races would be far more equitable??

 

http://www.un.org/ga/60/elect/hrc/thailand.pdf

 

 

PS - I have PR 

[williamgeorgeallen]

21 minutes ago, possum1931 said:

Absolute rubbish.

You must think all these under fifties are very rich'

100.000 for ten years and nothing in return and still

have to to the criminal conviction routine.

how much do western people spend living in thailand? i spend about 20 000usd/year excluding school fees. is another 3000/year for a visa really that much more? i am by no means rich but i would have no qualms paying that if i could not get my family visa. think anyone under 50 who cant afford 3000usd/year for a visa should probably be back home saving for a decent retirement.

[maewang99]

1. Asia is different.... Thailand even more so.  you can't simply hold real property.. we pay different prices sometimes... but then again our money's purchasing power is way out of whack with the Baht's purchasing power... and there are several reasons for that, not just a simple one.  actually, given how they do things... their immigration policy is quite reasonable and open. you get to live here.... with a Thai wife they make it much easier for you to stay here than it is for others...... and when you're over 50... you're not likely to work, which is very important to them (except as a 'teacher', for the most part).... so you don't even need to be married anymore.... nothing to complain about. 

 

2. we can ***never*** be Thai... even if PR you are still not Thai.... because 'Thai' means ***Thai*** educated.... 20 years or so in Thai schools... public or private or 'international'... all of them pretty much the same basically. we can never go back and restart to age 0.  in other countries, how you are 'educated' is not relevant because we have an entirely different system of education.... and values. and as well, our first language (especially I am referring to English) has a written system that has evolved for reading and writing... as opposed to a system more oriented to phonetically transcribing the spoken language... we have about 40 vowels... but make it easier to read and write by only having 5 place holders (a,e,i,o,u)... spaces between words... and several other features.... Thai (Gum Muaeng, or Central etc.) are very different even from other tonal languages (Chinese... even Vietnamese now) as to literacy.... and language (along with our extreme dexterity) is what make us what we are.

it's really important stuff and affects us heavily during our formative years, especially in school. so we can never be the same.

Edited November 5, 2016 by maewang99

[bangkapi]

I kind of like that it is so difficult to get the PR.

It keeps a lot of riff-raff from staying too long.

In spite of it, we still have more than our share of riff-raff here.

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

how much do western people spend living in thailand? i spend about 20 000usd/year excluding school fees. is another 3000/year for a visa really that much more? i am by no means rich but i would have no qualms paying that if i could not get my family visa. think anyone under 50 who cant afford 3000usd/year for a visa should probably be back home saving for a decent retirement.

 

I can understand why someone with children here might be willing to sell-out their future retirement-savings for the opportunity to see their children grow up - so not knocking that tough decision.  Shame if those funds could not be invested in a college-fund for them, though.

But it's not $3K/yr USD, its $15K USD up-front from hard-fought savings for a temporary solution.  I spend under $14K/yr including visa-runs for SETVs.   The rest of my income, I save.  Judging by how I have seen many retirees living on the "dark side" of Pattaya, I'd say they spend far less (unless they are spending the difference in bars).   Up to 30K baht/yr (not up front) for a temporary visa-option is my limit.  More than that, and I'll leave.

 

If I "went home" I'd be able to save less money for my future, so that isn't an option.  I could save more in Cambodia, if I went back to work at my own business, but sure as heck would not pinch-pennies there for years doing that, then hand it over to the Elite scheme, in a lump-sum, for a temporary-visa.