Constant water pump

[nellyp]

The water pump at the house I have moved into is always working. I have read that it may be some thing called the bladder tank causing the problem. Does anyone know how I can check this, have any other ideas about why it is always working ?

[wayned]

By "always working", do you mean that it is running all of the time even with all off the faucets in the house are turned off, or do you mean that it is cycling on and off with all of the faucets turned off?

[wayned]

Pump manufacturer and model will also help.

[nellyp]

7 hours ago, wayned said:

By "always working", do you mean that it is running all of the time even with all off the faucets in the house are turned off, or do you mean that it is cycling on and off with all of the faucets turned off?

The pump is always doing something, even with all the faucets turned off, and the water stops when I unplug it. I will have a look at the manufacturer when i get home from work, cheers

[bankruatsteve]

Check non-return valves and any other valves that would allow circular water flow.  Does your water bill show excessive use?

 

[wayned]

1.  As said above you could have a defective check valve where the pump is continually running pumping water back through the check valve into the local supply pipe which then fills your tank and it is an endless loop.

2.  A big leak somewhere!

3. A defective pressure cutoff switch.

4. A defective impeller on the pump which never pumps enough water to reach the cutoff pressure - I had this  happen to one of my pumps.

5.  A defective motor on the pump that doesn't run fast enough to create the pressure necessary to reach cutoff - one other member had this problem.

Edited November 21, 2016 by wayned

[nellyp]

13 hours ago, nellyp said:

7 hours ago, wayned said:

1.  As said above you could have a defective check valve where the pump is continually running pumping water back through the check valve into the local supply pipe which then fills your tank and it is an endless loop.

2.  A big leak somewhere!

3. A defective pressure cutoff switch.

4. A defective impeller on the pump which never pumps enough water to reach the cutoff pressure - I had this  happen to one of my pumps.

5.  A defective motor on the pump that doesn't run fast enough to create the pressure necessary to reach cutoff - one other member had this problem.

The pump is always doing something, even with all the faucets turned off, and the water stops when I unplug it. I will have a look at the manufacturer when i get home from work, cheers

 

It's a mitsubihi, but I need to find the type.

 

I noticed something earlier. When I turn the pump off it still sounds as though something is happening in the tank.

 

I am not sure about the water bill yet as I have just moved in. I am surprised that the tank never seems to fill up enough to allow water through to my taps without the pump (or very seldom anyway) Would all of the above causes mean i am constantly refilling the tank with water I do not use?

 

[wayned]

Do you have a large storage tank that the input side of the pump is connected to?  That tank should fill up from the local water supply and the output of the tank should be connected to the input of the pump.  If your pump is the accumulator type, the pump has a tank under it, the pump pumps water from your big input tank into th smaller tank on the pump which is pressurized.  If you only get water when the pump is running then the tank is never pressurizing.  If you have all of the outlets turned off and you unplug the pump, when you turn on a faucet you should still get pressurized water for a short period of time, if not the tank is not pressurizing.  I have 3 Mitsubishi pumps, all accumulator type.  The model number of the pump would help.

 

There's a good installation drawing on another thread, I think posted by Crossy, but I can't find it.   Maybe he'll read this and post it again and I will copy and save it!

[Crossy]

 

It's usually set up like this, the non-return valve at the bottom is a bypass so you get city water pressure if the pump is off (no power).

 

This valve may be replaced by a regular valve which is normally off, turn on to bypass. If that valve is open (or the non-return is defective) when the power is on your pump will run all the time.

 

 

[wayned]

Thanks, copied and saved!  Unfortunately I have to remember where I saved it if I want to use it!  A real problem and getting worse!

[nellyp]

9 hours ago, wayned said:

Do you have a large storage tank that the input side of the pump is connected to?  That tank should fill up from the local water supply and the output of the tank should be connected to the input of the pump.  If your pump is the accumulator type, the pump has a tank under it, the pump pumps water from your big input tank into th smaller tank on the pump which is pressurized.  If you only get water when the pump is running then the tank is never pressurizing.  If you have all of the outlets turned off and you unplug the pump, when you turn on a faucet you should still get pressurized water for a short period of time, if not the tank is not pressurizing.  I have 3 Mitsubishi pumps, all accumulator type.  The model number of the pump would help.

 

There's a good installation drawing on another thread, I think posted by Crossy, but I can't find it.   Maybe he'll read this and post it again and I will copy and save it!

I am going to take some pictures of the pump and post them here, and compare the layout to crossy's drawing. It could be connected wrong as they couldn't get  the shower to work until I pointed out the had the inlet and outlet of the water mixed up lol

[nellyp]

I have attached some pictures on here, and I will try to get 2 vids I did too.,

 

The water supply from the mains is constant unless I physically hold up the float. I am getting water occassionaly if the pump is turned off.

 

The vids are way to big. I went around the system turning each tap off, and the only time the pump stopped was when I turned the inlet to it from the tank off

[lopburi3]

29 minutes ago, nellyp said:

I went around the system turning each tap off, and the only time the pump stopped was when I turned the inlet to it from the tank off

Seem you have a leak somewhere - most likely place is a toilet so if you can turn each one off at wall you can easily check - if not you need to remove cover and observe closely.  Many times the float will be a bit too high allowing water to overflow into bowl.  If nothing found there check each tap by turning off and placing paper towel below it - and use towel to whip any pipes/hose that might be leaking.  Often times a hose is used to keep a can full of water and if placed below water level very hard to see leakage.  Hopefully you will find leak - if not it may be underground and if a rental may cost you on water bills if you do not move out or convince owner to fix.

 

Edit:  Wrote above thinking you were talking bout the output from pump to house being turned off but just re-read and see you said inlet to pump?  If water stopped pump would normally still try to work until overheating shutdown.  Did you have some water pressure in house with pump stopped?

Edited November 25, 2016 by lopburi3

[wayned]

There should be a cutoff valve at the water meter near the street.  Turn it off.

 

Turn off the valve on the input line to the tank.

 

This will isolate the water supply to the water that's in the tank only, and eliminate the check valve on the input line that I don't see in your pictures.

 

With all of the faucets off does the pump still run all of the time? 

[bankruatsteve]

I didn't notice a shut valve for the input to the tank.  Anyway, the OP should take photo of EVERY valve he can see and try to map how the pipes connect.  If the pump runs all the time when plugged in and no faucets open, then definitely a circular flow or major leak.  If major leak, it seems you would see it.

[nellyp]

You guys are really great. It is dark now, but i will go through these checks tomorrow.

 

With the picture of the pump and the 2 shut offs, is the one on the left theinput to the pump and the one on the right the output?

 

I am kinda assuming that if that is the input, the water is going into a tank which is the pressurized tank.

 

Get back to you tomorrow

[wayned]

The one on the left is the input and the one on the right is the output.  The water goes into the tank through the pump which pressurizes the tank.

 

In post number 14 where I asked you to turn off the vavle on the tank input it's difficult to see if/where that valve is.   I assume the it's on the right in picture number 7 that's on the pipe that goes underground for about 1 meter and then reappears as the input pie to the tank.  But why/where it goes underground is a mystery.  If turning that valve off does not turn off the supply to the pump, tie the ball valve in the tank in the up/off position to turn off the input.

[Crossy]

If you close the pump outlet (the valve on the right of the pump photo) does the pump stop?

 

If not, you have a pump or pressure switch problem.

 

If the pump stops, time to follow wayned's advice as you seem to have a circular path somewhere.

 

By the way, the yellow thing under the pump itself is the pressure tank.

[wayned]

 By doing what I suggested you will isolate the non-return valve in Crossy's picture.  I have exactly the same model pump as you do and can make my pump run all of the time.  Due to the high mineral content in my supply water causing many non-return valve failures I have replaced it with an on/off valve.  So if the electric is off I have to turn on the valve to get village water.  If I leave the valve on and turn the power to the pump my pump will run all of the time since it is constantly pumping the water from the tank and right back in, an endless loop , and also trying to pressurize the entire village water supply!.  If your system is connected like mine it could be as simple as a valve in the wrong position or a defective non-return valve which I don't see anywhere in your pictures.

 

Where are you located?

[nellyp]

On 25/11/2016 at 3:04 PM, wayned said:

There should be a cutoff valve at the water meter near the street.  Turn it off.

 

Turn off the valve on the input line to the tank.

 

This will isolate the water supply to the water that's in the tank only, and eliminate the check valve on the input line that I don't see in your pictures.

 

With all of the faucets off does the pump still run all of the time? 

I turned off the inlet to the main tank (from the water supply), and the pump seems to work properly like that. initially therer is pressure in the tap and then the pump turns on. It turns off again once i turn the faucet off.

[Crossy]

It sounds like you have a bypass which is open, either a ball valve which ought to be closed or a leaky non-return valve.

 

Time to become the detective :)

[nellyp]

On 25/11/2016 at 3:04 PM, wayned said:

There should be a cutoff valve at the water meter near the street.  Turn it off.

 

Turn off the valve on the input line to the tank.

 

This will isolate the water supply to the water that's in the tank only, and eliminate the check valve on the input line that I don't see in your pictures.

 

With all of the faucets off does the pump still run all of the time? 

Once I stop the supply to the tank, the pump seems to work properly

[nellyp]

On 26/11/2016 at 5:53 AM, Crossy said:

If you close the pump outlet (the valve on the right of the pump photo) does the pump stop?

 

If not, you have a pump or pressure switch problem.

 

If the pump stops, time to follow wayned's advice as you seem to have a circular path somewhere.

 

By the way, the yellow thing under the pump itself is the pressure tank.

Yes. If I turn off the valve on the outlet, the pumpo stops. If it is a crcular path, how do I find out what is causing that? Is it something I can do, or will I need to get somebody in?

[Crossy]

One assumes the tank is full and so the float valve isn't open.

 

You need to draw out what you have, possibly dig out any underground pipes to ensure they go where you expect.

 

 

[nellyp]

2 minutes ago, Crossy said:

One assumes the tank is full and so the float valve isn't open.

 

You need to draw out what you have, possibly dig out any underground pipes to ensure they go where you expect.

 

 

The float seems a problem. When the mains supply is on, the pump keeps running and the tank keeps filling up. Is it possible that the float in the tank is the problem? Do you mean to check all the floats in the toilets or elsewhere

[nellyp]

10 minutes ago, Crossy said:

It sounds like you have a bypass which is open, either a ball valve which ought to be closed or a leaky non-return valve.

 

Time to become the detective :)

How do I know where the non-return valves are?  Perhaps i need to get a guy in to look at it. I am in Hua Hin, anybody know somebody around here who could take a look?

[bankruatsteve]

When your "mains supply is on" is that when the valve to the tank is open?  The pump running just means that it is circulating water.  It is not "filling the tank".  And your float is probably just fine.  There must be another valve, after the out from the pump that is connected in some way to the "main".  Try to find that.  Again, if you can map the pipes and valves as best you can, that will help to answer your problem.

[nellyp]

4 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

When your "mains supply is on" is that when the valve to the tank is open?  The pump running just means that it is circulating water.  It is not "filling the tank".  And your float is probably just fine.  There must be another valve, after the out from the pump that is connected in some way to the "main".  Try to find that.  Again, if you can map the pipes and valves as best you can, that will help to answer your problem.

Yes, It is when the valve to the tank is open. So does that mean that I am using no extra water, just constantly circulating the same water? I cannot see another tap that could be going back to the mains supply as it looks like the pipes are running underground. They seem to pop up in weird places and sometimes for no apparent reason. I will take another look tomorrow. At the moment I have turned off the mains supply to the tank, and I am leaving the pump on (it only clicks in when i use my taps). I will simply refill the tank tomorow.

[bankruatsteve]

52 minutes ago, nellyp said:

Yes, It is when the valve to the tank is open. So does that mean that I am using no extra water, just constantly circulating the same water? I cannot see another tap that could be going back to the mains supply as it looks like the pipes are running underground. They seem to pop up in weird places and sometimes for no apparent reason. I will take another look tomorrow. At the moment I have turned off the mains supply to the tank, and I am leaving the pump on (it only clicks in when i use my taps). I will simply refill the tank tomorow.

 

There's gotta be a valve or non-return valve (google it) that is going back to the mains.  As somebody else suggested, you could turn off the valve at the meter and should have the same condition with your tank valve open/off.  That would confirm circular.  Then you just have to find where it is.

[nellyp]

25 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

 

There's gotta be a valve or non-return valve (google it) that is going back to the mains.  As somebody else suggested, you could turn off the valve at the meter and should have the same condition with your tank valve open/off.  That would confirm circular.  Then you just have to find where it is.

So... If I turn off the valve at the meter and turn the pump on and it works propery (tank will be isolated), turning on when I turn a faucet is on and shutting off when the faucet is turned back off, does that mean it is a circulating problem? I think by turning off the tap in picture 7 I am isolating the tank then too, and that is what the situation is now. The tank is not filling up, I am using the water that is in it with th epump working as it should. i will look again for another valve, but I am not sure where to look (apart from everywhere lol)