Plane carrying footballers from Brazil crashes in Colombia

[dhream]

3 hours ago, mcfish said:

Im not. I'm a licensed pilot and Ive already read that site and many others. I suspect you have a strong fear of flying to start with. Do some research on google, you can not argue against stastics :-)

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Tragic loss. But agree. Aviation is so refined at checklist safety by rote, even surgeons (with an overall appalling safety record) have adopted them. That's why decent hospitals will have the surgical team actually ask you, personally what you are having done, before proceeding, wherever possible. Not the first time they've lopped off a healthy leg.

[dhream]

18 minutes ago, mcfish said:

I have to admit that I'f my time came I would rather get t boned in a car than spending several minutes spinning out of control with 270 screaming passengers

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Yeah, it's bad enough in turbulence when some idiot loses their shit, and starts everybody off...

[Skeptic7]

18 minutes ago, mcfish said:

I have to admit that I'f my time came I would rather get t boned in a car than spending several minutes spinning out of control with 270 screaming passengers

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Agree that checking out while getting boned much more preferable! Oh sorry...missed the T

[dhream]

2 hours ago, phantomfiddler said:

They say a photo never lies, but statistics, like photography, can deceive. I have wrecked 8 cars in serious crashes and walked away from every one of them, so in my eyes driving is safer than flying :)

You've wrecked 8 cars? Even a cat only has nine lives, better start walking everywhere, phantom.

[Beats56]

So sad of the lives lost. I have often wondered about sport teams flying all over the country every few days. I know flying is safe satistical wise. but....

[webfact]

Hunt begins for cause of crash that wipes out Brazilian team

By FERNANDO VERGARA and JOSHUA GOODMAN

 

LA UNION, Colombia (AP) — Colombia's worst air crash in two decades snuffed out a storybook run by a Brazilian soccer team, and authorities are digging in trying to figure out why a chartered jetliner crashed in the Andes, killing all but six of the 77 people aboard.

 

The country's aviation agency said Tuesday that the British Aerospace 146's cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder had been found among the wreckage strewn over a mountainside and were already being studied by experts.

 

Initially, Colombian officials said the short-haul jet suffered an electrical failure, but there was also heavy rain when the crew declared an emergency and the plane disappeared from radar just before 10 p.m. Monday.

 

Authorities also said they were not ruling out the possibility the aircraft ran out of fuel minutes before it was to land at Jose Maria Cordova airport outside Medellin, a report given to rescuers by a surviving flight attendant. Officials said they hoped to interview her Wednesday.

 

Emotional pain resonated across the region over the loss of much of the Chapecoense soccer team from southern Brazil, which just two years after working its way into Brazil's top league for the first time in decades had fought its way into the championship of one of South America's most prestigious tournaments.

 

The aircraft, which departed from Santa Cruz, Bolivia, was carrying the team to Wednesday's first game in the two-game Copa Sudamericana final against Atletico Nacional of Medellin. Twenty-one Brazilian journalists were traveling with the team.

 

South America's soccer federation canceled all scheduled matches in a show of solidarity, while the Real Madrid and Barcelona clubs interrupted their training sessions for a minute of silence. Brazil's top teams offered to lend players to the small club for next season as it rebuilds, saying: "It is the minimum gesture of solidarity that is within our reach."

 

In a moving gesture, Atletico Nacional asked that the championship title be given to Chapecoense, whose upstart run in the tournament electrified soccer-crazed Brazil.

 

Three players were among the survivors. Alan Ruschel was reported in the most serious condition, facing surgery for a spinal fracture. Teammates Helio Zampier and Jakson Follmann also suffered multiple trauma injuries, and doctors had to amputate Follmann's right leg.

 

A journalist also underwent surgery and two Bolivian crew members were in stable condition, hospital officials said.

 

The aircraft is owned by LaMia, a charter company that started in Venezuela but later relocated to Bolivia, where it was certified to operate last January. Despite apparently limited experience, the airline has a close relationship with several premier South American soccer squads.

 

Earlier this month, the plane involved in the crash transported Barcelona forward Lionel Messi and Argentina's national team from Brazil following a World Cup qualifying match. The airliner also appeared to have transported the national squads of Brazil, Bolivia and Venezuela in the last three months, according to a log of recent activity provided by Flightradar24.com.

 

Before being taken offline, LaMia's website said it operated three 146 Avro short-haul jets made by British Aerospace, with a maximum range of around 2,965 kilometers (1,600 nautical miles) — about the distance between Santa Cruz and Medellin.

 

Hans Weber, a longtime adviser to U.S. aviation authorities, said the aircraft's range deserves careful investigation. He noted that air distance between cities is usually measured by the shortest route but planes rarely fly in a straight line, with pilots steering around turbulence or changing course for other reasons.

 

Given the model of the plane and the fact that it was flying close to capacity, "I would be concerned that the pilots may have been cutting it too close," Weber said.

 

A spokesman for Bolivia's civil aviation agency, Cesar Torrico, said the plane was inspected before departing for Colombia and no problems were reported.

 

Gustavo Vargas, a retired Bolivian air force general who is president of the airline, said: "We can't rule out anything. The investigation is ongoing and we're going to await the results."

 

Moments before the plane took off, the team's coaching staff gave an interview to a Bolivian television station in which they praised the airline, saying it brought them good fortune when it flew them to Colombia last month for the championship's quarterfinals, which they won.

 

"Now we're going to do this new trip and we hope they bring us good luck like they did the first time," athletic director Mauro Stumpf told Gigavision TV.

 

The team, from the small Brazilian city of Chapeco, was having a breakout season. It advanced to the Copa Sudamericana finals after defeating some of the region's top teams, including Argentina's San Lorenzo and Independiente.

 

The Chapecoense club is so modest that tournament organizers ruled its 22,000-seat stadium was too small to host the concluding match of the two-game final and moved it to a stadium 300 miles (480 kilometers) to the city of Curitiba. Some fans in soccer-mad Brazil were so enchanted with its magical run that they started a campaign online to move the final match to Rio de Janeiro's iconic Maracana stadium, where the 2014 World Cup final was played.

 

"This morning I said goodbye to them and they told me they were going after the dream, turning that dream into reality," Chapecoense board member Plinio De Nes told Brazil's TV Globo. "The dream was over early this morning."

___

Associated Press writer Fernando Vergara reported this story in La Union, Colombia, and AP writer Joshua Goodman reported from Bogota.

 

-- © Associated Press 2016-11-30

[Xircal]

The pilot flying the aircraft was also the owner of the airline according the following news report: http://www.marca.com/en/football/international-football/2016/11/29/583d93c8268e3ebc338b461b.html

 

The flight was also due to pickup passengers - and possibly aviation fuel? - in Sao Paulo but was prevented from doing so by legal impediments.

[Mises]

It seems that the flight plan left almost no margin for reserve fuel (all the more so with a payload of beefy footballers). On approach the plane, a BAe146 was told to hold in order to give priority to another incoming plane, an A320, that had declared an emergency due to a fuel leak. While holding, the  BAe146 declared an electrical emergency for which the most likely cause was no electrical generators working due to engine flameouts. i.e. the BAe146 ran out of fuel. The BAe146 descended without clearance from Air Traffic Control, declared an emergency and requested vectors to the airfield but was now lost on ATC radar so these were not forthcoming. It hit the ground at about 140kmph. Note there was no fire.

Information/speculation above from PruNe

[mcfish]

A couple of things, firstly there is no way that 4 engine jet is certified for single flight crew operation and I've heard no mention of of a 1st officer and secondary the electrical problem he reported would be the result of engines failing so that should have been his first pan or mayday call

So if he was single crew and as the owner he may have made that choice and that would explain the confusion under an extremely high work load he was doomed from the start, trying to figure out and trouble shoot 4 engines failing, instruments failing, in the dark and in cloud

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[Mosha]

9 hours ago, Mises said:

It seems that the flight plan left almost no margin for reserve fuel (all the more so with a payload of beefy footballers). On approach the plane, a BAe146 was told to hold in order to give priority to another incoming plane, an A320, that had declared an emergency due to a fuel leak. While holding, the  BAe146 declared an electrical emergency for which the most likely cause was no electrical generators working due to engine flameouts. i.e. the BAe146 ran out of fuel. The BAe146 descended without clearance from Air Traffic Control, declared an emergency and requested vectors to the airfield but was now lost on ATC radar so these were not forthcoming. It hit the ground at about 140kmph. Note there was no fire.
Information/speculation above from PruNe

It's in a more reliable source, AVHerald

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[Mosha]

BBC has just reported the pilot turned down a refuelling option in Bogotá.

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[webfact]

Chapecoense crash: plane may have ‘run out of fuel’

Alasdair Sandford

 

 

Colombian authorities are looking into reports that the plane carrying Brazilian footballers that crashed near Medellin may have run out of fuel.

 

There have been unconfirmed reports that the pilot had sent a radio message saying the plane was running out of fuel and needed to make an emergency landing – and that there were then electrical problems.

 

Investigators from Brazil have arrived in Colombia to join local counterparts following the crash that killed 71 people, wiping out the Chapecoense football team.

 

Experts from Britain, where the charter plane – a BAe 146 made by BAE Systems – was built, are also in the country to help the national authorities.

 

The two black boxes have been recovered but retrieving data may take a while.

 

The aircraft had flown from Santa Cruz in Bolivia, carrying the Chapecoense team and officials, as well as more than 20 journalists.

 

Colombian media, quoting investigators, have claimed that the plane was made to wait for another aircraft to land before its turn came.

 

A military source told AFP that the fact the plane had not exploded upon impact was suspicious, reinforcing the theory of a lack of fuel.

 

Brazil’s ambassador to Colombia spoke from the Rio Negro airport at Medellin where the flight was due to land.

“The families, as you can imagine, are in a very delicate situation. We tried to avoid them coming to Colombia so that they don’t have to through the additional stress,” Julio Glinternick Bitelli said.

 

An eyewitness filmed the scene at a local clinic as a survivor was brought in by ambulance.

 

All but six of those on board – three footballers, a journalist and two crew members – died in the crash.

The survivors’ injuries range from bruises to at least one amputated limb.

 

The Chapecoense team had risen through the divisions and were about to play the first leg of a Copa Sudamericana final, the biggest match of their history.

 

Investigators returned to the wreckage on Wednesday; soldiers had guarded the hillside crash site overnight.

Most of the bodies are said to have been recovered and many identified, with the help of medical experts from Brazil.

 

The bodies are to be repatriated to Brazil and Bolivia, the countries where the nine-person crew came from.

 

-- © Copyright Euronews 2016-12-01

[bandito]

22 hours ago, mcfish said:

Im not. I'm a licensed pilot and Ive already read that site and many others. I suspect you have a strong fear of flying to start with. Do some research on google, you can not argue against stastics :-)

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There are lies and then there are lies and then there are statistics. I have no fear of flying as I did use planes many times a year in my working life. My 1st trip by airplane was in 1963, by charter flight with a Convair modified ww 2 troop transport plane from Amsterdam to Malta and you know what? Above the Swiss Alps a fire in the port engine. From Amsterdam to Bangkok, in 1976, emergency  landing at U-Tapao because of empty fuel tanks. I have many more experiences with unsafe flying and am surprised still to be alive. If it was meant for man to fly, we were then borne with wings. Flying at 30000 feet high in some metal contraption is unnatural and unsafe. You as a pilot are forced to say it is safe. Well it is not. Let's end this discussion, shall we?

[mcfish]

 
There are lies and then there are lies and then there are statistics. I have no fear of flying as I did use planes many times a year in my working life. My 1st trip by airplane was in 1963, by charter flight with a Convair modified ww 2 troop transport plane from Amsterdam to Malta and you know what? Above the Swiss Alps a fire in the port engine. From Amsterdam to Bangkok, in 1976, emergency  landing at U-Tapao because of empty fuel tanks. I have many more experiences with unsafe flying and am surprised still to be alive. If it was meant for man to fly, we were then borne with wings. Flying at 30000 feet high in some metal contraption is unnatural and unsafe. You as a pilot are forced to say it is safe. Well it is not. Let's end this discussion, shall we?

Dude your a frequent flyer over many years and your arguing over the same odds that actually kept you alive! Your are proof the statistics are true, end of story.

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[Mosha]

A serious lack of judgement not refuelling, the airline could lose it's licence. The have 2 other RJ85s though they aren't in service.

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[Searat7]

CNN reported that this trip was 5 miles longer than the maximum range of the plane with full fuel tanks

[phantomfiddler]

crashing due to lack of fuel would definitely fall under the heading of "False Economy".

[Stargeezr]

Yes, tonight the News  said that the plane did run out  of fuel.

The poor pilot was forced to circle, and was pleading with the ATC

control tower to let him land  and then ran out of fuel before he could land.

  The controller may be in big trouble  if he or she ignored the

pilot.

Geezer

[Mosha]

Yes, tonight the News  said that the plane did run out  of fuel.
The poor pilot was forced to circle, and was pleading with the ATC
control tower to let him land  and then ran out of fuel before he could land.
  The controller may be in big trouble  if he or she ignored the
pilot.
Geezer

He refused an option to refuel at Bogota, even without the A320 problem he'd have been on reserve tanks. That's against aviation rules. Fuel for the flight + 30 mins.

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[bangon04]

11 hours ago, Mosha said:

A serious lack of judgement not refuelling, the airline could lose it's licence. The have 2 other RJ85s though they aren't in service.

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It is possible that the Pilot was also the Owner / Licence holder, so it would be his last error saving fuel costs...

[Grouse]

10 hours ago, Stargrazer9889 said:

Yes, tonight the News  said that the plane did run out  of fuel.

The poor pilot was forced to circle, and was pleading with the ATC

control tower to let him land  and then ran out of fuel before he could land.

  The controller may be in big trouble  if he or she ignored the

pilot.

Geezer

Bull,

 

There are protocols for this. The pilot/owner was too scared of an old nvestigation which would happen if he landed with less than 30 mins fuel left. 

 

He he should have declared emergency and got immediate clearance

 

Criminal act if he didn't IMHO

 

ATC woman was a heroine 

[Grouse]

A Lufthansa pilot would never try something like this .......

[Xircal]

This is the ATC recording in Spanish with English subtitles.

 

 

[Grouse]

12 minutes ago, Xircal said:

This is the ATC recording in Spanish with English subtitles.

 

 

 

No Mayday no Pan Pan!

[mcfish]

It is possible that the Pilot was also the Owner / Licence holder, so it would be his last error saving fuel costs...

Yes he was the owner

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[mcfish]

 
No Mayday no Pan Pan!

He knew as the owner there we be an investigation if he maydayed because of no fuel, airlines don't get away with rookie mistakes like that

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[balo]

The greatest football player of them all , Messi was a passenger on the very same plane 2 weeks ago with Argentina.  This is a terrible accident that should have never happened.  Running out of fuel ?  What a shame , a reminder to stay away from small airliners in S-America. 

 

[mcfish]

http://www.9news.com.au/World/2016/12/02/09/38/Footage-emerges-of-interview-with-co-pilot-hours-before-take-off

Turns out there was a copilot and it was her first flight

Video has emerged of an excited co-pilot just hours before her death on board the LaMia plane that crashed in Colombia earlier this week, killing 71 people.

Sisy Arias, 29, was on the plane as a civilian co-pilot for the first time when it came down outside Medellin on Monday night local time, the Standard reports.

Video footage from an interview with what appears to be a Gigavision TV journalist shows her smiling and expressing excitement “to offer them the best service”.

Another co-pilot adds “they [Chapecoense] are going with a lot of hope and with a lot of luck”.

“I think we’ll return with good results,” he says from the plane, as players and other passengers settle in their seats and move around behind him.

Ms Arias’ father, journalist Jorge Arias, paid tribute to his daughter, a well-known Colombian model, in a post on social media: “I hope God will keep her in his glory. My girl, I love you, I loved you and I will always love you. Love, I don’t know what will become of me with you.”


Only six survived the crash. (AFP)
Only six of the 77 passengers and crew on board the plane survived.

The video has been released just a day after chilling footage emerged of Chapecoense players beginning their journey to Colombia before the crash.

It’s believed the doomed flight had run out of fuel as it tried to land, however investigations are continuing.

Leaked audio with air traffic control reveals the pilot asked to land because of fuel and electrical issues.

Thousands of Chapecoense fans descended in stadiums in Brazil and Colombia on Thursday to pay tribute to their fallen team, with devastated fans clad in team shirts and clutching merchandise.

The Brazilian team had been due to play their Copa Sudamericana final against Atletico Nacional in Medellin on Wednesday.

[emoji767] Nine Digital Pty Ltd 2016

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[Xircal]

On 12/1/2016 at 4:34 PM, Grouse said:

 

No Mayday no Pan Pan!

 

According to reports I've read, the pilot didn't want to declare a fuel emergency because that would have damaged the airline's reputation as a renowned soccer team carrier.

 

If it hadn't been for Viva Columbia flight FC8170 which had declared an emergency due to a suspected fuel leak and had been given priority landing rights, the LaMia flight might have made it. But having been instructed to maintain a holding pattern together with  atrocious weather conditions that night with low cloud cover and torrential rain, it regretably sealed their fate. 

[Grouse]

59 minutes ago, Xircal said:

 

According to reports I've read, the pilot didn't want to declare a fuel emergency because that would have damaged the airline's reputation as a renowned soccer team carrier.

 

If it hadn't been for Viva Columbia flight FC8170 which had declared an emergency due to a suspected fuel leak and had been given priority landing rights, the LaMia flight might have made it. But having been instructed to maintain a holding pattern together with  atrocious weather conditions that night with low cloud cover and torrential rain, it regretably sealed their fate. 

 

Emergencia would have been the magic word rather than prioridad.

 

Please excuse my rubbish Spanish!