Trump speaks with Taiwan's president, risking China tensions

[iReason]

Just now, Thaidream said:

America can make anything China can make and it's time to bring the manufacturing of all essential items back to the US.

 

Sure. Why not?

Perhaps the huckster President Elect should for starters, set a good example by bringing back all the manufacturing jobs he has outsourced to countries like China, Mexico, the Honduras, VietNam and Bangladesh for years.

Along with the many other countries his daughter outsources her 800+ items to.  

 

What do ya think?

Edited December 3, 2016 by iReason

[Thaidream]

A great idea- whether he is a huckster or not- he is the man in power- we shall see what he does- but if he can bring some jobs back it will help Americans. The problem is so called globalisation and automation- there are so many things that can be done abroad at low prices that makes American business in their greed head overseas. The Apple I-phone is made in China- at a very small cost- and sold at huge profits all over the World. I want to see Apple start to bring more of this back to the US and give Americans real jobs not the minimum wage jobs in call centers.

Trump maybe onto something regarding renegotiating trade deals and tariffs on products made abroad in which US companies left America.  Globalization is fine when you get a fair shake but China is a predator and manipulates its currency to keep it costs low and keeps its markets closed through its bureaucratic morass and then  claims companies do not know how to do business in China.You have to push back on the Chinese and let them know they aren't the only game in town. Trump maybe a huckster but he now the huckster in chief so let's see if he can deliver. If he can't- we can run him out on a rail in 4 years.

[Jingthing]

It's really not about whether he can deliver or not. It's about what his supporters believe. Truth doesn't matter. Facts don't matter. The USA has entered into a very dark zone now.

 

Quote

 

The post-truth world of the Trump administration is scarier than you think

It’s time to dust off your old copy of “1984 ” by George Orwell and recall this passage: “The Ministry of Peace concerns itself with war, the Ministry of Truth with lies, the Ministry of Love with torture and the Ministry of Plenty with starvation. These contradictions are not accidental, nor do they result from ordinary hypocrisy: they are deliberate exercises in doublethink.”

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/the-post-truth-world-of-the-trump-administration-is-scarier-than-you-think/2016/12/02/ebda952a-b897-11e6-b994-f45a208f7a73_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_sullivan-345pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.04f53e09f898

 

Welcome to the post-truth presidency

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/welcome-to-the-post-truth-presidency/2016/12/02/baaf630a-b8cd-11e6-b994-f45a208f7a73_story.html?hpid=hp_no-name_opinion-card-f%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.74a794aad836

 

Edited December 3, 2016 by Jingthing

[lannarebirth]

1 hour ago, Andaman Al said:

Lets see you adopt the same stance if China calls in the 1.2 trillion debt the US owes it in treasury bonds.

 

The debt is not callable before term. They can sell it if they wish and I think they'll find many ready and willing buyers.

[craigt3365]

1 hour ago, Andaman Al said:

Lets see you adopt the same stance if China calls in the 1.2 trillion debt the US owes it in treasury bonds.

And what would they trade it for?

 

https://www.thebalance.com/u-s-debt-to-china-how-much-does-it-own-3306355

Quote

 

China would not call in its debt all at once. If it did so, the demand for the dollar would plummet like a rock. This dollar collapse would disrupt international markets worse than the 2008 financial crisis. China's economy would suffer along with everyone else's.

 

It's more likely that China would slowly begin selling off its Treasury holdings. Even when it just warns that it plans to do so, dollar demand starts to drop. That hurts China's competitiveness. As it raises its export prices, U.S. consumers would buy American products instead. China must further expand its exports to other Asian countries and increase domestic demand. Only then can it call in its U.S. debt holdings.

 

 

[OMGImInPattaya]

8 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

 

The debt is not callable before term. They can sell it if they wish and I think they'll find many ready and willing buyers.

People with no understanding of economics and finance always like to trot out this hoary argument about what if the Chinese reduce their Treasury holdings...it just displays their ignorance

 

Most valuable commodity in the world...US Treasury paper (it sells for way above par...if you don't know what that means, it's a fancy way of saying it's more expensive now than when originally issued)...way better than gold and that's why Xi will never sell any of his hoard...it's the only thing China has of any real value.

Edited December 3, 2016 by OMGImInPattaya

[Kiwiken]

I just wonder if you know the true cost of bringing back your out sourced Industry. I just got 4 pairs of Wrangler jeans from the USA US$36 a pair. But they were made in Mexico. Sure you can make them in the USA as we all can. But are you willing to pay 3-4 times the price. Same for your TV's, electronics etc. We can all make things but if you pay your workers reasonable wages expect everything to rise in price. And expect you CPI to inflate dramatically

[Thaidream]

It's been going on for decades -especially when globalization and the deregulation of the financial markets allowed a few to make huge profits off the many.  The American public is angry as is much of the industrialised World because the 1% have stolen the wealth of the 99%.

 

Trump is indeed a huckster who used the theme  of making America Great Again-to stir up emotions of the American public. Wages are stagnant; prices have increased; jobs have left. He used the spectre of 11 million illegal immigrants stealing American jobs to throw the light away from greedy business onto  the Mexicans and others sending their people to America to take jobs and commit crimes. He used the spetre of our Allies living off the American military and getting rich while American taxpayers pay the bill and on and on. His arguments are accepted because Americans want change and he will bring some to them but the causes of the American malaise are not what Trump says they are.

 

He will never solve the real problems in America but then Clinton would not have done so either. America must have a redistribution of wealth and that means taking the gross amount of wealth from the 1% and letting the 99% get their share. He won't do this because he is of the wealthy. He will make things somewhat better but it will not last because it doesn't go after the real issue- such as recognizing that Healthcare is a human right and allowing Insurance companies and Big Pharma to get rich off it is the wrong path. He needs to reduce the Defense Budget not increase it. He needs to get rid of the majority of the Intelligence community and re-organize it into a cohesive unit at much reduced cost. He really needs to 'drain the swamp' but that means going after every government agency- reduce its budget- and make it actually work for the people.He won't do it because the wealthy corporations and its masters live off the 'pork'

 

In addition- he needs to reform the whole political process by getting money out of it which he won't do because he is the money. His election will buy time and fool the people by creating another false economy and adding to the boom -bust cycle.  What America really needs is a progressive agenda aka Bernie Sanders that takes money out of the equation and puts the people back in it. The wealthy won't give up easy. It will take another American revolution to make it happen.

[Thaidream]

The point of the poster regarding jeans made in Mexico and sold in the US is an excellent point and shows just what globalization has done. Those jobs will not be brought back but the jobs that should be brought back are those involving essential industries such as manufacture; steel  and natural resources as well as telecommunications and technology. However, how about American top management start by lowering their executives salaries to reasonable levels instead of the obscene millions they are making and taking less in profit . That might help close the gap on certain items that are made abroad and could be made in the US. 

 

Building walls is a losing proposition and trying to deport illegals is also a waste of time  (except those convicted of a felony). Americans will never go to the fields and pick; work in chicken processing plans; and do the labor on construction sites.  If every illegal was deported tomorrow parts of the economy would collapse. How about a real Immigration reform that actually legitimizes needed labor.

 

I could go on and on but what I want to see is the wealthy ; the CEOs; big business etc start thinking about what will really make America great again and not how to continue to line their own pockets.

[elgordo38]

5 hours ago, NeilSA1 said:

"Tsai was democratically elected" - this says it all.  Well done.

China considers them part of the motherland and in the motherland there is no democracy only people power. The 72 people who died in the shoddy construction site in China will attest to how much the government cares for the people. 

[iReason]

Just now, Thaidream said:

It's been going on for decades -especially when globalization and the deregulation of the financial markets allowed a few to make huge profits off the many.

 

The wealthy won't give up easy.

 

It's been going on since the advent of money. Centuries.

The fleecing has just become more sophisticated.

Serfs have become "consumers".

 

Your last quoted line say's it all.

And it ain't gonna happen.

They will call in the troops and that's that.

 

And this huckster will not/cannot stop it.

 

Politicians get killed for less...

[puck2]

3 hours ago, Jingthing said:

trump has the "toddler" excuse for plausible deniability for anything he does. Nobody expects him to know anything about foreign policy, because he knows nothing, so this diplomatic kerfuffle can be downplayed in a way it couldn't with a regular president that isn't a narcissistic man baby. 

 

Maybe like this ........ ?

 

Edited December 3, 2016 by puck2

[Grubster]

8 hours ago, ezzra said:

That will definitely get the Chinese noses out of joint.. not since 1974 when than

president Carter has declared One China policy, a US president has any open dialogues

with Taiwan.... We sure live in interesting times....

Jimmy Carter was elected in 1976.

[Grubster]

I see a problem between the US and China coming soon.

[craigt3365]

1 hour ago, Grubster said:

I see a problem between the US and China coming soon.

The problems started a long time ago.

[Kiwiken]

Taiwan is not part of China. it was only after the Portugese set up Trading posts there in the 1600's that the han Chinese moved in. Formosa as it was known is an occupied Country where the native population have been pushed into the highlands by the han Chinese. Chiang Kai Shek made it Chinese in 1949 when he fled there with the remnats of the  Kuomintang . The natives have been marginalised. They are the ancestors of the pacific peoples and not chinese

[Grubster]

13 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

The problems started a long time ago.

Not according to US big business, who have been making trillions using Chinese low wages, slave labor, sweat shop conditions, no pollution controls, etc. etc.

[Anthony5]

Looks like Trump wants to make friends with everyone instead of enemies.

 

Suggest they award him the Nobel peace price even before he becomes president.

[Jingthing]

Referring back to my last post here, IMAGINE if Hillary Clinton was president elect and had done the same thing. (Of course, she wouldn't have.)

 

The Chinese would have taken it a lot more seriously because they would have taken her a lot more seriously. The world sees trump for what he is, a man baby in the woods, that changes his policy lines daily. Easy to work with. Just say some soothing praise words to the toddler, and you then you can placate it. 

 

This theory is already proven.  China has reacted to this very mildly. 

Edited December 3, 2016 by Jingthing

[MikeLikesU]

Trump has been working hard, before his actual inauguration. He has reached out to world leaders, as well as working to secure jobs in the USA.  His cabinet choices (so far) are keen. There is actually very little to find fault with.

 

Good Luck Donald !   Thanks for the Win !

 

[craigt3365]

1 hour ago, Grubster said:

Not according to US big business, who have been making trillions using Chinese low wages, slave labor, sweat shop conditions, no pollution controls, etc. etc.

Don't you mean  Chinese big business making trillions using Chinese low wages, slave labor, sweat shop conditions. Etc etc etc 

[onthesoi]

By all means take the call, but rubbing China's nose in it publicly via mainstream media is a fools errand ...with nothing gained!

 

What happens if China starts publicly taking calls from ISIS ?

Edited December 3, 2016 by onthesoi

[Morch]

The issue is not snubbing the PRC. It is not even about any principals as such. Wouldn't mind if it was, but as it stands, seems this is more about Trump's ego than anything else. Notice his tweeter comments afterwards - they do not echo much of the interpretations, hopes and fears detailed on this topic - they're all about Trump's sense of pride.

 

If the aim is to challenge the PRC, by all means, go for it. Just perhaps would be better if there was actually any planning and reasoning behind it, rather than an apparently simple minded  "why can't I?". This reads more like something fitting a juvenile, not someone about to become the president of the most powerful nation on Earth.

 

And here's another thing, Trump is not the president at this time, and not for almost two month hence. Rather, it will be the outgoing administration who will need to contend with any trouble he causes until the inauguration. It is not just about disregarding protocol or even applying basic common sense, but perhaps more to do with lacking much by way of decency.

[Morch]

7 hours ago, Thaidream said:

A great idea- whether he is a huckster or not- he is the man in power- we shall see what he does- but if he can bring some jobs back it will help Americans. The problem is so called globalisation and automation- there are so many things that can be done abroad at low prices that makes American business in their greed head overseas. The Apple I-phone is made in China- at a very small cost- and sold at huge profits all over the World. I want to see Apple start to bring more of this back to the US and give Americans real jobs not the minimum wage jobs in call centers.

Trump maybe onto something regarding renegotiating trade deals and tariffs on products made abroad in which US companies left America.  Globalization is fine when you get a fair shake but China is a predator and manipulates its currency to keep it costs low and keeps its markets closed through its bureaucratic morass and then  claims companies do not know how to do business in China.You have to push back on the Chinese and let them know they aren't the only game in town. Trump maybe a huckster but he now the huckster in chief so let's see if he can deliver. If he can't- we can run him out on a rail in 4 years.

 

Isn't Trump himself a good representative of that very same greed you go on about?

[Morch]

12 hours ago, craigt3365 said:

It's not just Americans.  My last trip to Europe, after telling them where we were from, they'd ask how it was in Taiwan. LOL

 

A while back, traveling in Turkey, some locals had trouble figuring out Thailand. Finally enlightenment hit the "brain" among them - "Taiwanland! Tsunami! Sex shop!".

[Dagnabbit]

The 1st tiny step towards WWIII - even be4 he's the actual president.

This dangerous, ignorant buffoon!

Taiwan is an independent, modern, democratic nation. Very typical of the kind of country the US has tried (and failed) to build in Afghanistan and Iraq.

All countries should recognize Taiwan. It is sheer hypocrisy that the US does not have full and normal relations with Taiwan.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Grubster]

2 hours ago, craigt3365 said:

Don't you mean  Chinese big business making trillions using Chinese low wages, slave labor, sweat shop conditions. Etc etc etc 

No I mean US businesses like every clothing manufacturer you can think of, every shoe maker, etc. etc. These are US owned companies. Maybe I should say they were US companies since they have now decided that they can even make more profit by totally abandoning the US by putting their corporate headquarters[ one small office] in a foreign country like Ireland so they don't have to pay tax in the US although nearly all there offices and owners live in the US. While Ireland is happy with a low tax on billions of dollars for the little office they have there.  So first they abandoned the US workers, Then the rest of the US people. Many of these companies have been subsidized by the Taxpayer for moving.  I have many friends who had to go to foreign countries to train the guy taking his job, or else they will lose their severance pay and can't draw unemployment if they refuse to go. When was the last time you bought a US brand name piece of clothing made in the US? Not even Levi jeans are made in the US. Most of the parts for US assembled cars are not made in the US. Thats why we have so many millions not working or making minimum wage. They brought in the Mexicans to do the jobs that can't be exported, like meat cutters { a huge industry that used to employ high wage earners, now replaced by non union cheap labor}. Reaganomics has worked brilliantly for big business but the trickle down has been a small drip of piss.

[Thakkar]

Here's a speculation.

 

Trump International Hotels is expanding worldwide. They want to build hotels everywhere. They don't actually own the properties, just the management rights—for which they charge a hefty sum. And they charge to slap the "Trump" name on the properties. Local developers own the properties. To help them able to afford to pay the high management fees to Trump Corp, it sure would be nice if they could get preferential loans from China's newly formed Asia Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB).

 

It's a classic Mob move: "that's a nice worldwide One China policy you got there; be a shame if something were to happen to it."

 

 

[Xircal]

15 hours ago, yellowboat said:

It will be difficult for the less than nimble minds in Washington to come to grips with the fact that the president elected owes nobody anythings.  Love him or hate him he will probably cast protocol aside if he feels it just gets in the way.

 

He probably wants Taiwan to shoulder the burden of their own defense. 

 

Taiwan already buys all its military hardware from the US: http://qz.com/576293/taiwan-is-buying-1-8-billion-in-military-hardware-from-the-us-and-china-is-not-happy/

 

According the the Independent though, the call didn't just take place out of the blue and had already been pre-arranged by both teams: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-taiwan-conflict-china-a7453411.html

 

But like you already mentioned, Trump doesn't seem to be bothered about diplomatic protocol so expect more fireworks along the way once he gets into office.

[GinBoy2]

Having lived in Taiwan for many years I was talking to friends yesterday, and certainly this has caused a stir. The reactions range from total joy to OMG what has he done.

 

You need to remember what the One China policy has meant for the past 40 years. We have no diplomatic representation, or acknowledgement of Taiwan, but the head of the non profit American Institute in Taipei, is the de facto Ambassador, to preserve the myth that we don't recognize Taiwan as a sovereign State.

 

So this uneasy status quo has existed for decades, it needs to be resolved, but doing that is risky. At the end of the day the China PLA could cross the Taiwan Straits and take the island, and there would be little Taipei could do to stop it.

 

The question for Trump would be, if he wanted to precipitate that, would he be prepared to come to the defense of Taiwan, which has for decades been the unspoken, but given reality.

 

Donald may soon come to realize that diplomacy and geopolitics isn't quite as simple as a reality TV show