Trump speaks with Taiwan's president, risking China tensions

[Jingthing]

He's not even president yet.

God help us.

 

http://www.ih8trump.org/trump-bull-china-shop/

Edited December 3, 2016 by Jingthing

[onthesoi]

17 minutes ago, GinBoy2 said:

So this uneasy status quo has existed for decades, it needs to be resolved, but doing that is risky. At the end of the day the China PLA could cross the Taiwan Straits and take the island, and there would be little Taipei could do to stop it.

Exactly ....let sleeping dogs lie.  Trump is doing Taiwan no favours with this silly move.

[geriatrickid]

 

[MikeLikesU]

These inflated news stories of Horror, War, Doom and gloom, are just bad vibes being sent by the Democrat/Liberal Media.  As Jingthing mentioned...."He's not even President Yet".   He does not speak for Obama, or the government.

 

Methinks some Trump Haters are just overeager to fantasize catastrophe.

 

[NeverSure]

OMG. Trump is actually putting the interests of the US ahead of China. For the first time in decades we'll have a president who doesn't bow down to China. Whatever is this world coming to?

 

Cheers.

[tuktuktuk]

Screw the Chinese. It's about time we shook their tree. I'll bet they already feel like the democrats did on the morning of November 9. Everybody knows there are two Chinas. Time to face the music and stop the charade. 

[NeverSure]

"With his reckless Taiwan phone call, Trump has done untold damage to the cause of appeasement and groveling." - Ann Coulter

[craigt3365]

8 hours ago, Grubster said:

No I mean US businesses like every clothing manufacturer you can think of, every shoe maker, etc. etc. These are US owned companies. Maybe I should say they were US companies since they have now decided that they can even make more profit by totally abandoning the US by putting their corporate headquarters[ one small office] in a foreign country like Ireland so they don't have to pay tax in the US although nearly all there offices and owners live in the US. While Ireland is happy with a low tax on billions of dollars for the little office they have there.  So first they abandoned the US workers, Then the rest of the US people. Many of these companies have been subsidized by the Taxpayer for moving.  I have many friends who had to go to foreign countries to train the guy taking his job, or else they will lose their severance pay and can't draw unemployment if they refuse to go. When was the last time you bought a US brand name piece of clothing made in the US? Not even Levi jeans are made in the US. Most of the parts for US assembled cars are not made in the US. Thats why we have so many millions not working or making minimum wage. They brought in the Mexicans to do the jobs that can't be exported, like meat cutters { a huge industry that used to employ high wage earners, now replaced by non union cheap labor}. Reaganomics has worked brilliantly for big business but the trickle down has been a small drip of piss.

Though I do agree with most of what you post, it's a bit off topic.  But a very good argument!  No easy answers here and it will be interesting to see how Trump handles all of this.  Considering the political gridlock in Washington, and Trump's recent backtracking on campaign promises, not as much will be accomplished as we previously thought.  But who knows!  We're in uncharted territory. 

[GinBoy2]

1 hour ago, NeverSure said:

OMG. Trump is actually putting the interests of the US ahead of China. For the first time in decades we'll have a president who doesn't bow down to China. Whatever is this world coming to?

 

Cheers.

That's all well and dandy, but I'd suggest that for a guy that had denounced coming to the aid of allies you need to figure out what you would actually do if, lets say a more aggressive stance with regard to recognizing Taiwan independence, actually triggered a military response from Beijing.

 

If that happens 'do' we send Carrier Strike Group 5 to protect the island? This isn't some trade deal, or losing a 1000 jobs at an air conditioning factory we're whining on about, this is a real possibility of prompting a nuclear capable superpower into military action.

 

Before you start tugging at the tail of the tiger, or dragon in this case, please God think through the consequences, and understand what you are prepared to do if that Dragon was roused to action!

[tuktuktuk]

45 minutes ago, GinBoy2 said:

That's all well and dandy, but I'd suggest that for a guy that had denounced coming to the aid of allies you need to figure out what you would actually do if, lets say a more aggressive stance with regard to recognizing Taiwan independence, actually triggered a military response from Beijing.

 

If that happens 'do' we send Carrier Strike Group 5 to protect the island? This isn't some trade deal, or losing a 1000 jobs at an air conditioning factory we're whining on about, this is a real possibility of prompting a nuclear capable superpower into military action.

 

Before you start tugging at the tail of the tiger, or dragon in this case, please God think through the consequences, and understand what you are prepared to do if that Dragon was roused to action!

Ok, so we should fear the Chinese?  If so, we should either increase our military budget to counter the threat, submit to their superiority, or pretend it doesn't matter. I'll bet you're thinking the latter. China is an adversary. That's not some nebulous threat like global warming.

[GinBoy2]

Just now, tuktuktuk said:

Ok, so we should fear the Chinese?  If so, we should either increase our military budget to counter the threat, submit to their superiority, or pretend it doesn't matter. I'll bet you're thinking the latter. China is an adversary. That's not some nebulous threat like global warming.

Absolutely we need to worry about the China threat. Our military is more than a match for the Chinese already, that's not the point, you have to be prepared to deploy, and that's the question.

 

We have in the past decade had two wars, against vastly inferior foes, which didn't exactly pan so well, and left the country a tad war weary. When it comes to China, you're not talking about some middle eastern rag tag army, or a bunch of taliban, you are talking about a huge conventional army, which is well equipped, Oh and least we forget, does have nuclear weapons.

 

It's not a case of giving in to China, and I for one would like nothing more than to see Taiwan recognized as a sovereign independent State. But if you want to goad China into some kind of response, you need to be prepared to put your money, or in this case your military, whre your mouth is.

 

Talk is cheap, a military confrontation with China is not

[impulse]

6 hours ago, Jingthing said:

He's not even president yet.

God help us.

 

http://www.ih8trump.org/trump-bull-china-shop/

 

You've become worse than the Obama haters of the last 8 years.  And the guy isn't even president yet.

[NeverSure]

China can't afford a war with the US simply because the US is the largest buyer of its exports. Where's it going to send its crap so it can feed its people?

[tuktuktuk]

2 minutes ago, GinBoy2 said:

Absolutely we need to worry about the China threat. Our military is more than a match for the Chinese already, that's not the point, you have to be prepared to deploy, and that's the question.

 

We have in the past decade had two wars, against vastly inferior foes, which didn't exactly pan so well, and left the country a tad war weary. When it comes to China, you're not talking about some middle eastern rag tag army, or a bunch of taliban, you are talking about a huge conventional army, which is well equipped, Oh and least we forget, does have nuclear weapons.

 

It's not a case of giving in to China, and I for one would like nothing more than to see Taiwan recognized as a sovereign independent State. But if you want to goad China into some kind of response, you need to be prepared to put your money, or in this case your military, whre your mouth is.

 

Talk is cheap, a military confrontation with China is not

I like the response. Having a military that no one dares challenge is a necessity. It will never be cheap and we'll all shoulder the burden forever.  

[impulse]

13 hours ago, onthesoi said:

By all means take the call, but rubbing China's nose in it publicly via mainstream media is a fools errand ...with nothing gained!

 

What happens if China starts publicly taking calls from ISIS ?

 

Look at the trade imbalance.  It's not hard to figure out how to cripple their economy.  Take back the economic gains the people have gotten used to, and the CCP may be fighting their own people.  There's already 10's of thousands of riots every year.

 

Edit:  And keep in mind Taiwan is watching how things go in Hong Kong, based on the same promises they'd expect to get from China under reunification.  I suspect they're unimpressed.  Perhaps even afraid...

Edited December 4, 2016 by impulse

[iReason]

Just now, NeverSure said:

Where's it going to send its crap so it can feed its people?

 

Classic ignorant, bigoted redneck gibberish.

 

'murica...

[GinBoy2]

1 hour ago, iReason said:

 

Classic ignorant, bigoted redneck gibberish.

 

'murica...

Well that's a little hyperbolic. What would say however that the original comment fails to grasp the new reality of China. Maybe 10-15 years ago they were totally dependent on exports, essentially relying their 'workshop of the world' status.

 

However things have moved on, rather quickly in point of fact. They now have a burgeoning middle class, a technology sector which is no longer just manufacturing, but innovating, and now have a domestic market.

 

So the notion that the US could in some simplistic fashion though market forces cripple them,  is not only misguided but wholly wrong. The US isn't the largest trading partner, the EU is, and if you add Japan, South Korea, Malaysia even, the volume dwarfs the US in export terms.

 

The problem that many on this esteemed forum, and elsewhere fail the recognize is, that whatever a politician may tell you on some stump speech, complex issues very very rarely have 'bumper sticker' solutions

Edited December 4, 2016 by GinBoy2

[iReason]

Just now, GinBoy2 said:

Well that's a little hyperbolic. What would say however that the original comment fails to grasp the new reality of China. Maybe 10-15 years ago they were totally dependent on exports, essentially relying their 'workshop of the world' status.

 

However things have moved on, rather quickly in point of fact. They now have a burgeoning middle class, a technology sector which is no longer just manufacturing, but innovating, and now have a domestic market.

 

So the notion that the US could in some simplistic fashion though market forces cripple them,  is not only misguided but wholly wrong. The US isn't the largest trading partner, the EU is, and if you add Japan, South Korea, Malaysia even, the volume dwarfs the US in export terms.

 

The problem that many on this esteemed forum, and elsewhere fail the recognize is, that whatever a politician may tell you on some stump speech, complex issues very very rarely have 'bumper sticker' solutions

 

Outside of your first line, I agree with your post.

My original post was an appropriate response to blatant bigoted ignorance.

 

Only to add, the Chinese have contributed multitudes to civilization centuries before 'murica was born.

Regardless as to what the ignorant trailer trash spew.

 

It sticks in my craw reading what some of these dolts write...

Edited December 4, 2016 by iReason

[Grubster]

4 hours ago, craigt3365 said:

Though I do agree with most of what you post, it's a bit off topic.  But a very good argument!  No easy answers here and it will be interesting to see how Trump handles all of this.  Considering the political gridlock in Washington, and Trump's recent backtracking on campaign promises, not as much will be accomplished as we previously thought.  But who knows!  We're in uncharted territory. 

If Trump takes China on, then he will be taking US big business on also, so I guess that is my point. I hope China just takes all these businesses away from US owners, it would serve them right. Of course the US taxpayer would just bail them out anyway as we did the banks.

[GinBoy2]

1 hour ago, iReason said:

 

Outside of your first line, I agree with your post.

My original post was an appropriate response to blatant bigoted ignorance.

 

Only to add, the Chinese have contributed multitudes to civilization centuries before 'murica was born.

Regardless as to what the ignorant trailer trash spew.

 

It sticks in my craw reading what some of these dolts write...

Well I'm not going to argue with that. But the reality is, unfortunately that rather a large percentage of our fellow citizens do seem to think that there is a 'bumper sticker' solution to most of the worlds problems.

China however is not a 'bumper sticker', its the worlds second largest economy, and a nuclear superpower, and more importantly for us here it's the major force in southeast Asia.

 

So, grandiose statements mean nothing, in fact that make things worse. Anyone who has ever lived or worked in China knows, you don't defeat China through direct confrontation, that in many ways fans the flames. China plays a long game, subtle but prolonged pressure is what wins.

 

A four years Presidential cycle plays into the Chinese long hand nicely.

 

Donald, hopefully, will learn that. Mattis is a good military strategist, With luck he will be able to guide his Boss, and hopefully right the ship!

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎03‎.‎12‎.‎2016 at 11:08 AM, aslimversgwm said:

The 1st tiny step towards WWIII - even be4 he's the actual president.

This dangerous, ignorant buffoon!

You think it won't come to that anyway?

How fast people forget the Chamberlain "piece of paper", and the result. Appeasing China isn't going to make them see sense.

At the moment, America could make China back down, but in a few years once they have built up their military, forgedaboudit.

 

Bullies always back down in the face of superior power.

[NeverSure]

3 hours ago, iReason said:

 

Classic ignorant, bigoted redneck gibberish.

 

'murica...

 

Brilliant retort. Just what I'd expect from someone who knows nothing and has nothing to add.

 

Cheers.

[thaibeachlovers]

17 hours ago, craigt3365 said:

Don't you mean  Chinese big business making trillions using Chinese low wages, slave labor, sweat shop conditions. Etc etc etc 

In my lifetime China went from a country with basically no rich people to a very, very few with obscene amounts of money made by exploiting their fellow citizens for all they can. They still do so.

 

[NeverSure]

2 hours ago, GinBoy2 said:

Well that's a little hyperbolic. What would say however that the original comment fails to grasp the new reality of China. Maybe 10-15 years ago they were totally dependent on exports, essentially relying their 'workshop of the world' status.

 

However things have moved on, rather quickly in point of fact. They now have a burgeoning middle class, a technology sector which is no longer just manufacturing, but innovating, and now have a domestic market.

 

So the notion that the US could in some simplistic fashion though market forces cripple them,  is not only misguided but wholly wrong. The US isn't the largest trading partner, the EU is, and if you add Japan, South Korea, Malaysia even, the volume dwarfs the US in export terms.

 

The problem that many on this esteemed forum, and elsewhere fail the recognize is, that whatever a politician may tell you on some stump speech, complex issues very very rarely have 'bumper sticker' solutions

 

The EU isn't the largest importer of Chinese exports if that's what you meant. The US is. LINK

 

The US has several ways to snooker China if China wants to do too much bullying.  One is to put a large tariff on its exports - something Trump has suggested. Another is to starve it out of $USD, the international unit of trade. Without USD it can't engage in international trade because few if any countries will accept its money for trade.

 

I can think of others but I don't expect the US to tolerate China's bullying for the next 4 years at least.

 

Cheers.

[GinBoy2]

2 minutes ago, NeverSure said:

 

Brilliant retort. Just what I'd expect from someone who knows nothing and has nothing to add.

 

Cheers.

As much as I responded to iReasons comment to you, the same is true.

 

Without reasoned argument and thought nothing is achieved. We seem to have entered an age where the internet echo chamber can validate any two line argument.

 

I think your post was wrong, totally lacking in any real substance, equally as I said to iReason his response was hyperbolic.

 

But at some point we need to recognize that the world is complex, reality TV is exactly that...TV, not reality. So unless we try to argue sensibly rather just talk radio 'fact', then democracy has a real problem

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, GinBoy2 said:

Well that's a little hyperbolic. What would say however that the original comment fails to grasp the new reality of China. Maybe 10-15 years ago they were totally dependent on exports, essentially relying their 'workshop of the world' status.

 

However things have moved on, rather quickly in point of fact. They now have a burgeoning middle class, a technology sector which is no longer just manufacturing, but innovating, and now have a domestic market.

 

So the notion that the US could in some simplistic fashion though market forces cripple them,  is not only misguided but wholly wrong. The US isn't the largest trading partner, the EU is, and if you add Japan, South Korea, Malaysia even, the volume dwarfs the US in export terms.

 

The problem that many on this esteemed forum, and elsewhere fail the recognize is, that whatever a politician may tell you on some stump speech, complex issues very very rarely have 'bumper sticker' solutions

If China could be relied on to just be the big boy on the block no one would be worrying.

However, they ain't building tourist resorts where they have zero right to be.

There is only one reason for the military build up in the South China Sea, and it isn't for light houses.

[iReason]

Just now, NeverSure said:

Brilliant retort. Just what I'd expect from someone who knows nothing and has nothing to add.

 

Absolutely right.

I have nothing to "add" to that ignorant, neanderthal drival you posted.

And have no interest in addressing your childish gibes as well.

 

Yawn... 

[GinBoy2]

3 minutes ago, NeverSure said:

 

The EU isn't the largest importer of Chinese exports if that's what you meant. The US is. LINK

 

The US has several ways to snooker China if China wants to do too much bullying.  One is to put a large tariff on its exports - something Trump has suggested. Another is to starve it out of $USD, the international unit of trade. Without USD it can't engage in international trade because few if any countries will accept its money for trade.

 

I can think of others but I don't expect the US to tolerate China's bullying for the next 4 years at least.

 

Cheers.

Then look around you. What, if tariffs were applied to all those goods would it do to US consumer prices? US companies choice to manufacturer in China to lower US consumer price, and increase their own profits.

 

You don't pressure China by hurting your own consumer base

[thaibeachlovers]

3 minutes ago, GinBoy2 said:

As much as I responded to iReasons comment to you, the same is true.

 

Without reasoned argument and thought nothing is achieved. We seem to have entered an age where the internet echo chamber can validate any two line argument.

 

I think your post was wrong, totally lacking in any real substance, equally as I said to iReason his response was hyperbolic.

 

But at some point we need to recognize that the world is complex, reality TV is exactly that...TV, not reality. So unless we try to argue sensibly rather just talk radio 'fact', then democracy has a real problem

LOL. The human world is not, and has never been complex. Empires rise and fall. End of story. Everything else is just detail. China has apparently decided that it is time for it to be the new Empire. By appeasing with BS like the one China policy, the western world is just marching into a Chinese dominated world.

Make them back down now, IMO, or fight them later.

[NeverSure]

2 minutes ago, GinBoy2 said:

As much as I responded to iReasons comment to you, the same is true.

 

Without reasoned argument and thought nothing is achieved. We seem to have entered an age where the internet echo chamber can validate any two line argument.

 

I think your post was wrong, totally lacking in any real substance, equally as I said to iReason his response was hyperbolic.

 

But at some point we need to recognize that the world is complex, reality TV is exactly that...TV, not reality. So unless we try to argue sensibly rather just talk radio 'fact', then democracy has a real problem

 

And your post has exactly what to do with the topic "Trump speaks with Taiwan's president risking China tensions?"

 

"Some people" seem unable to post without making it all about style or personalities. I reject your post out of hand for saying nothing about the topic.

 

It is entirely silly to think that China could bully the US into not taking a phone call from a democratically elected national leader who buys billions of dollars worth of arms from the US. If China doesn't like it, it's China that will suffer. China has bluffed too many for too long.

 

Cheers.