SURVEY: Do you know anyone who has/is using a fake degree in Thailand?

[Torrens54]

What difference would it make?

Really, some of those with the "Genuine Article" might just as well have saved Daddy's Money and bought a Fake, for all the use they are.

Not only degrees in Thailand but also a LOT of other places these days.

[DogNo1]

Well, those of us who have studied at a university for 12+ years, written our master's thesis and doctoral dissertation and passed our qualifying exams have a completely different opinion concerning the value of degrees.  In my experience, the devaluing of degrees is done by those who don't have them.  I have never heard a colleague say that his/her Ph.D. was worthless.

[lostinisaan]

 

 Not the right time, me thinks. 

 

 

      

 

        

[ozmeldo]

Always excuses, I'm pushing sixty and all the institutions I attended can produce transcripts and the university authorization letters and duplicate diplomas. Over 40 a break, are you serious?

 

If the school people attend can't produce these things, they shouldn't be allowed to teach anyway, obviously substandard school. Obviously!

 

Online learning? 80% are a total farce. That's a real fake degree.

 

 

This is a Filipino and possibly African thing imo. An NES can get a job teaching anywhere in Thailand as a contractor still. They don't need a fake degree. I'm not stating that with a degree your interview and hiring rate won't be higher, simply they don't need to fake a degree.

 

With a fake degree, I presume you need transcripts. Maybe that's why you hear all the excuses on this board when talks about verification letters were news.

 

NES can get a standard bog job not only just "somewhere", but at good schools still, especially if the school or agency is notorious to work for or the location poor and has connections. I'm convinced at one school I had worked they were ok with these NNES, non degreed teachers as they were cheap and pliant.

 

I've taught at schools with good reputations that had many farang contractors. Of those schools I've taught at perhaps 35-40%+ were non degreed. My last school had two EU NNES without degrees and both horrible teachers. I don't know why NES would bother with a fake, just do a cheap TEFL and you're gold. TEFL and some balls seem to work fine.

 

On the other hand Filipinos won't even get a blink without a degree and there are many, many here without. Degrees are bought there as they are bought in Thailand. Academics far worse in Philippines. They are just fluent in spoken English and can teach grammar rules from rote memory (they use none of it in speech or writing).

 

I think there should be far more stringent checks for everyone by TCT. No degree, no job, no exceptions. No allowing schools to fudge. No contractors, no favors for high profile schools.

 

The waiver thing is idiocy. Limit the courses to listening and speaking if they must but do as Korea Japan and Taiwan, a bachelor's is enough.

 

It's crazy to allow foreigners (Filipinos) to teach subjects, zero benefit imo. Thais should be teaching subjects! Want more English? Have different types of English classes.

 

Fake degree, 30 days in jail, MOL blacklist for life. Notify school person has been caught with bogus degree.

 

You can always tell the people without degrees, they drone on ceaselessly about how unimportant they are despite struggling desperately to hold on to a marginal job thousands of km from home paying three quid an hour. No degree? Ah yes, see that's working well for you mate.

 

[ozmeldo]

2 hours ago, Torrens54 said:

What difference would it make?

Really, some of those with the "Genuine Article" might just as well have saved Daddy's Money and bought a Fake, for all the use they are.

Not only degrees in Thailand but also a LOT of other places these days.

 

Rubbish. You obviously have no degree.

 

Daddy's money - bitter much? How cynical. What else do loving parents do with their money?

 

I paid my way through university, but I wish my parents were in a position to have helped me during those years. I could have gone to a decent law school. I'm just happy they made it thru that period, marriage intactm

Edited December 11, 2016 by ozmeldo

[NeverSure]

16 hours ago, Strange said:

 

I know what you mean, but the question is a bit.... I dunno... 

 

"Do you know anyone breaking the law?"

 

Its a hell of a question imho. 

 

 

Pretty damn specific and a bit loaded even if the intentions are for simple discussion. 

 

I see what you mean but I disagree. I've read and reread his post and he's asking just how familiar and sure people are of this matter. He didn't ask for anyone's name. He's taking a survey and he wants assurance that people really know what they are saying.

 

Cheers.

[recom273]

7 hours ago, smotherb said:

No transcripts if over 40; please.  I am 71, my transcripts go back to 1963 and they are not etched in stone. I've seen my second step-father's transcripts from Duke University from 1937-40.

 

There was an older English NES teacher here who preferred to be called professor because he claimed a master's degree. We were discussing transcripts one day and he looked perplexed, he said he never had any transcripts. Transcripts are called the European Credit Transfer System (ECTS) in Europe---there has to be some way to verify the courses taken and grades made for a student. It is an historical record of that student's attendance at university.

 

Yes. That's what I mean, these guys don't have degrees.

 

However, I do know people here - Who have genuinely lost their transcripts - since living in Thailand my house has been flooded to the first floor and a friend lost his in an apartment fire caused by a neighbour while at work, so things out of your control can happen in 20-30 years.

 

Universities in the UK and South Africa merge or change classification,, move and records do get lost making it impossible to get copies for SOME people. I understand it's a little different in the states.

 

i haven't lost my documents but I can understand how it can happen.

 

The TCT put so much faith in a paper record - if you have been in teaching the last few years you will have seen a rise in non-native or debatable native speakers who all have immaculate transcripts who will work for a considerable lower wage or more importantly put up with dire conditions - now the whole point of the teacher license is to improve standards - Have standards risen since the arrival of the teachers license? 

[Strange]

4 hours ago, NeverSure said:

I see what you mean but I disagree. I've read and reread his post and he's asking just how familiar and sure people are of this matter. He didn't ask for anyone's name. He's taking a survey and he wants assurance that people really know what they are saying.

 

Cheers.

 

Maybe I was hasty. 

 

To contribute - I know 2 people that are teaching here with completely fake degrees right now. I have known 3 more in passing all in the same area. All foreigners, all caucasian, but not all were from native english speaking countries IE were accented but well spoken. Government schools. These are the ones I know 100% for sure are using fake university degrees to teach. 

 

By doing this, the schools assisted with visas & work permits and paid a measly salary of anywhere from 18k - 35k a month.   

 

To answer another of Scott's questions - Yes the use of fake degrees is a serious problem in Thailand. My employment is outside Thailand, so I don't know how the subject pertains to non-teaching jobs for non-Thais, but yeah its a serious problem on so many levels. 

 

But the bigger problem is the root cause that allows these things to happen. There would be no market for fake degrees and teaching if corruption was not so ingrained in the DNA of government schools. These schools have zero intention on finding qualified teachers to teach the children of their homeland, opting instead for an unqualified white person to make their outfit "look good" for the cheapest possible price - even though the "Director" can "afford" to hire a legit teacher from the UK/US/AU/EU, they won't. 

 

A person from my wifes family just graduated from uni with a real (thai) degree, and wanted to get into a teaching job. After "applying" all over the place in several provinces, she found a job. 

 

The price tag was 222K baht. No word of a lie. Family gladly paid and had a "party" over it.

 

Yeah fake degrees are a serious problem, but its a symptom of a much larger disease. 

[Slip]

5 hours ago, ozmeldo said:

Always excuses, I'm pushing sixty and all the institutions I attended can produce transcripts and the university authorization letters and duplicate diplomas. Over 40 a break, are you serious?

 

If the school people attend can't produce these things, they shouldn't be allowed to teach anyway, obviously substandard school. Obviously!

 

<SNIPPED FOR BREVITY>

 

I'm afraid that you are merely showing your ignorance.  I refer you to this:

 

8 hours ago, Johnniey said:

No transcripts in the UK before 1995.

 

 

 

 

Just because something is true for you, that does not make it true for everyone else.

[smotherb]

10 hours ago, Slip said:

 

 

What is your point?  I am 46 and graduated in the UK, hence no transcripts.  'Duke' sounds like one of those American places who churn out paper like a mill.  The ECTS system you refer to may be a European thing, but it isn't a UK one.  No wonder the old professor looked confused, but being English he wanted to save your blushes no doubt. How about a bit more research before making yourself look like an arse?  You are a graduate after all and you can prove it.

So, you are telling me that  UK universities keep no records of students, the courses they took, and the grades they made? Hmmm?

 

Oh, and if you should care to look it up, Duke is a very highly respected university.

Edited December 12, 2016 by smotherb
Forgot to say something about Duke

[Slip]

Just now, smotherb said:

So, you are telling me that  UK universities keep no records of students, the courses they took, and the grades they made? Hmmm?

 

No, I'm telling you that at the time I graduated transcripts were not available.  It was a different system.

[smotherb]

3 minutes ago, Slip said:

 

No, I'm telling you that at the time I graduated transcripts were not available.  It was a different system.

And that different system did not provide the classes you took and the grades you made?

[smotherb]

10 hours ago, Johnniey said:

No transcripts in the UK before 1995.

 

 

 

Gee, is the word really that confusing for you?  I did not infer you called them "transcripts"--I am speaking of the connotative meaning--I have already noted that Transcripts may go by a different name in different countries. Are you telling me that UK universities did not keep records of student attendance, the courses they took and the grades they made????????

[richard_smith237]

2 minutes ago, smotherb said:

So, you are telling me that  UK universities keep no records of students, the courses they took, and the grades they made? Hmmm?

 

Oh, and if you should care to look it up, Duke is a very highly respected university.

 

They do...   a couple of times in my Career I have had to get my University to send through a verified copy of my Degree Certificate directly to the potential employer or governing body. 

 

If an employer is serious about employing fully qualified people this is not a huge ask. 

 

Thats said: On my latest job I had to jump through numerous hoops, supply numerous referees (for direct contact), respond to so many technical questions just to get through to the intensive interview phase...  with some surprise my Degree certification was not requested or questioned... Perhaps the company double checked all this in the background. 

 

-------

 

Unqualified staff is somewhat of double issue - for example Teaching (which most people are discussing). IF a qualified teacher is not available for a poor school, anyone who speaks English may be of benefit to 'some' students, especially if a fully qualified teacher can't be afforded - I'm sympathetic towards this situation.

 

However, some schools are selling their students short (and the parents) for failing to carry out their due diligence. In these cases the school is simply profiting from lower costs.

 

I would like to assume that the top schools and universities carry out checks. This may be something worth questioning upon the interview stage prior to admission. 

 

If I ever found out that one of the teachers at the school my son attends is using a fake degree I'd use everything in my power to ensure that the fraudulent activity is dealt with swiftly. 

 

 

 

[smotherb]

10 hours ago, Johnniey said:

 

 

What about buying a degree from a Thai university, is that OK? There have been many where 30-50k could buy a Master's degree.

$50k to become a doctor which is scary.

 

 

 

 

Why relegate your self to a Thai degree; search online, you can buy fake degrees from any university

[Slip]

10 minutes ago, smotherb said:

And that different system did not provide the classes you took and the grades you made?

No- it gave a certificate with an overall honours class (1st, 2-1, 2-2 etc.)  I do understand your surprise as I'm presently going through this with the Department of Education.  I'm sure the information existed- we were just not given it.  My situation is particularly tricky as my place merged with another and was swallowed up.  The early to mid 90's was a period of great change in UK higher education and the CNAA which conferred my degree no longer exists either.

 

EDIT- to reflect your edit- I am of course aware of Duke- I was being facetious

Edited December 12, 2016 by Slip

[smotherb]

Just now, richard_smith237 said:

 

They do...   a couple of times in my Career I have had to get my University to send through a verified copy of my Degree Certificate directly to the potential employer or governing body. 

 

If an employer is serious about employing fully qualified people this is not a huge ask. 

 

Thats said: On my latest job I had to jump through numerous hoops, supply numerous referees (for direct contact), respond to so many technical questions just to get through to the intensive interview phase...  with some surprise my Degree certification was not requested or questioned... Perhaps the company double checked all this in the background. 

 

-------

 

Unqualified staff is somewhat of double issue - for example Teaching (which most people are discussing). IF a qualified teacher is not available for a poor school, anyone who speaks English may be of benefit to 'some' students, especially if a fully qualified teacher can't be afforded - I'm sympathetic towards this situation.

 

However, some schools are selling their students short (and the parents) for failing to carry out their due diligence. In these cases the school is simply profiting from lower costs.

 

I would like to assume that the top schools and universities carry out checks. This may be something worth questioning upon the interview stage prior to admission. 

 

If I ever found out that one of the teachers at the school my son attends is using a fake degree I'd use everything in my power to ensure that the fraudulent activity is dealt with swiftly. 

 

 

 

I agree, other than university professor, I had a career in management consulting; a few MNC employers who required degrees did not ask for transcripts, they were more concerned with where and how you gained your experience.

[NCC1701A]

I told a few of the Thai girls I was a gynecologist.

 

Does that count?

[smotherb]

3 hours ago, recom273 said:

 

Yes. That's what I mean, these guys don't have degrees.

 

However, I do know people here - Who have genuinely lost their transcripts - since living in Thailand my house has been flooded to the first floor and a friend lost his in an apartment fire caused by a neighbour while at work, so things out of your control can happen in 20-30 years.

 

Universities in the UK and South Africa merge or change classification,, move and records do get lost making it impossible to get copies for SOME people. I understand it's a little different in the states.

 

i haven't lost my documents but I can understand how it can happen.

 

The TCT put so much faith in a paper record - if you have been in teaching the last few years you will have seen a rise in non-native or debatable native speakers who all have immaculate transcripts who will work for a considerable lower wage or more importantly put up with dire conditions - now the whole point of the teacher license is to improve standards - Have standards risen since the arrival of the teachers license? 

Most employers who want transcripts will not just take printed copies of transcripts--they can be copied and faked too easily-- they want a sealed copy mailed directly to them form the university

[smotherb]

10 minutes ago, Slip said:

No- it gave a certificate with an overall honours class (1st, 2-1, 2-2 etc.)  I do understand your surprise as I'm presently going through this with the Department of Education.  I'm sure the information existed- we were just not given it.  My situation is particularly tricky as my place merged with another and was swallowed up.  The early to mid 90's was a period of great change in UK higher education and the CNAA which conferred my degree no longer exists either.

 

EDIT- to reflect your edit- I am of course aware of Duke- I was being facetious

A student's honors and class standing is most often part of the transcript; however, I have had to provide separate certification of my election to national and international honor societies for some academic positions. Being given only class standing usually does not cut it; they want to know the specific courses and your grades therein. As mentioned in another post, employers who want transcripts usually demand sealed copies sent directly from the university to the employer--so the student must contact the university, pay a small fee, and have the university send the transcripts directly to the  employer 

[Slip]

5 minutes ago, smotherb said:

A student's honors and class standing is most often part of the transcript; however, I have had to provide separate certification of my election to national and international honor societies for some academic positions. Being given only class standing usually does not cut it; they want to know the specific courses and your grades therein. As mentioned in another post, employers who want transcripts usually demand sealed copies sent directly from the university to the employer--so the student must contact the university, pay a small fee, and have the university send the transcripts directly to the  employer 

Which puts some of us in a rather tricky position.  I am not the only UK graduate from this time who is having this problem.  I can only get a transcript from my university which doesn't exist anymore, at least from the point of view of being able to provide a transcript.

 

Actually I am just revisiting this since I last looked some months ago, and it seems things may have changed.  it looks like I should now at least be able to get a degree verification which was NOT possible last time I looked.

[smotherb]

4 minutes ago, smotherb said:

The early to mid 90's was a period of great change in UK higher education and the CNAA which conferred my degree no longer exists either.

Well, interesting that the TV system should attribute this quote to me; it wasn't I who said that, it was Slip in post 46.

 

However, that is the quote to which I refer. In my discussions with English teachers here in Thailand, a university which no longer exists was a common reason provided for not being able provide a transcript. Of course, claiming a non-existent school raises a red-flag with any employer--which may be why you are going through hassles. Of course, it is certainly possible that a fully-accredited legitimate university can go belly-up, but fully-accredited universities can usually find a new owner and stay in operation; hence, the red flag..

[mallyrd]

It is rampant the world over : https://www.fast-degrees-online.com/

 

These companies are paying big bucks and getting even bigger bucks from those who participate.

[kmj]

I have a 30 year old degree in computer science, just waiting for a time machine to be invented... then I can go back and use it.

 

If you have a good trackable resume, it's very often of more use than your degree... especially in the software industry.

 

Edited December 12, 2016 by kmj

[simon43]

Quote

 

What is your point?  I am 46 and graduated in the UK, hence no transcripts
 

 

 

and 

Quote

 

No transcripts in the UK before 1995
 

 

 

I'm 57 years old.

 

My MSc in Microwave Engineering from University College London was completed in 1986 and a transcript document was provided with the degree certificate.

 

My First Class Honours BSc in Electronics & Communications Engineering was completed in 1985 and a transcript document was provided with the degree certificate.

 

Are you sure you guys graduated from a real university? :)

 

Edit: The CNAA no longer exists, but there is a documented procedure to obtain a transcript document from the authority that now holds the CNAA records.

 

My Bachelor degree university no longer exists, but I can still get a copy of my degree and transcript if I wish.

 

The fact that the university that awarded your degree no longer exists is not a valid excuse for not providing a transcript or degree certificate.  Your graduation records will still be held by another authority - they are not 'binned'.

Edited December 12, 2016 by simon43

[elliss]

On 12/10/2016 at 8:57 PM, Old Croc said:

I know of someone who purchased his fake degree in Thailand and used it successfully elsewhere in Asia for some years.

 

  Can  we assume  most of the  farlangs   with degrees , fake or not teach  English .

   What is more important, is that the teacher is from a Country where English is the spoken language.  imo

 

  

     

     

Edited December 12, 2016 by elliss

[Slip]

5 hours ago, simon43 said:

 

and 

 

I'm 57 years old.

 

My MSc in Microwave Engineering from University College London was completed in 1986 and a transcript document was provided with the degree certificate.

 

My First Class Honours BSc in Electronics & Communications Engineering was completed in 1985 and a transcript document was provided with the degree certificate.

 

Are you sure you guys graduated from a real university? :)

 

Edit: The CNAA no longer exists, but there is a documented procedure to obtain a transcript document from the authority that now holds the CNAA records.

 

My Bachelor degree university no longer exists, but I can still get a copy of my degree and transcript if I wish.

 

The fact that the university that awarded your degree no longer exists is not a valid excuse for not providing a transcript or degree certificate.  Your graduation records will still be held by another authority - they are not 'binned'.

 I am genuinely happy for you.  But as I have already said in this thread- just because it is true for one person does not mean it is true across the board.   Yes I am sure that I graduated from a real university (well polytechnic actually), how condescending of you Simon.  Furthermore your comments about  a documented procedure for attaining transcripts are at least in my case quite wrong.  It always makes me smile when people who have not walked in your shoes claim to know your situation better than you.  

 

I don't intend to go into a lot of detail here, because as I said it looks like there might have been some changes since I last researched this several months ago.  But here are some screenshots that reflect the accuracy of what I have said.  You will notice that The Open University (who are now tasked with looking after such matters for CNAA graduates) specifically say that they can NOT provide transcripts.  I don't need to get a replacement certificate (although that too is impossible- they can only provide a pro-forma verification document)- I have a degree certificate.  You and others have no idea what my local Dept of Education office is requesting yet you seem confident to comment on it.

 

Please note that the university in question at this time said that they were not able to provide transcripts from the time when I studied at the associated establishment.

 

Oh and good on you for getting a 1st- such a clever boy- strange that you are not more open to understanding my earlier point about your experience not being the be all and end all.

 

 

[HooHaa]

On 12/11/2016 at 0:49 PM, Strange said:

 

I know what you mean, but the question is a bit.... I dunno... 

 

"Do you know anyone breaking the law?"

 

Its a hell of a question imho. 

 

 

Pretty damn specific and a bit loaded even if the intentions are for simple discussion. 

 

 

it is an attempt to generate traffic, nothing more nothing less, think of it as kicking the tefler's nest

[Slip]

7 hours ago, smotherb said:

Well, interesting that the TV system should attribute this quote to me; it wasn't I who said that, it was Slip in post 46.

 

However, that is the quote to which I refer. In my discussions with English teachers here in Thailand, a university which no longer exists was a common reason provided for not being able provide a transcript. Of course, claiming a non-existent school raises a red-flag with any employer--which may be why you are going through hassles. Of course, it is certainly possible that a fully-accredited legitimate university can go belly-up, but fully-accredited universities can usually find a new owner and stay in operation; hence, the red flag..

A fair point Smotherb.  However, for the last 15 years no one has asked me to provide anything other than my certificate.  My employer has no problem at all with my qualifications or my performance as evidenced by back-to-back top 5 percentile reviews throughout that time.  It is the local Dept of Education who are changing the rules with little thought for those who are not in a position to jump through all the hoops.  A bit like some here in TV really- they have no concept of anything being different to what they have decided MUST be the case without actually bothering to do more than a shred of research.  (I'm not referring to you).

 

I can assure you that my qualification has not lapsed, diminished or disappeared in that time, but I have become a victim of a situation created by those fakers mentioned in the OP, combined with the stubborn intransigence of the Thai bureaucracy.

[smotherb]

1 hour ago, Slip said:

A fair point Smotherb.  However, for the last 15 years no one has asked me to provide anything other than my certificate.  My employer has no problem at all with my qualifications or my performance as evidenced by back-to-back top 5 percentile reviews throughout that time.  It is the local Dept of Education who are changing the rules with little thought for those who are not in a position to jump through all the hoops.  A bit like some here in TV really- they have no concept of anything being different to what they have decided MUST be the case without actually bothering to do more than a shred of research.  (I'm not referring to you).

 

I can assure you that my qualification has not lapsed, diminished or disappeared in that time, but I have become a victim of a situation created by those fakers mentioned in the OP, combined with the stubborn intransigence of the Thai bureaucracy.

Yes, I can see your point and I am not doubting your degree; however, you must also try to see the DoE's point. They are trying to establish a standard for teachers; which is a verifiable degree. You have caused them to see a red flag because your degree cannot be verified.