IT consulting and Work Permits

[FritsSikkink]

6 hours ago, jspill said:

 

I said freelance for overseas clients. There's no law against that. 

 

I don't choose to convince myself it's still illegal to work online in some capacity that has nothing to do with Thailand, Thai customers, no physical presence here, etc. That lifestyle has served me pretty well so far, been working for an overseas company in Thailand 7 years now. 

Stop talking BS, you were on 2 years overstay, worked illegally and didn't pay tax. you were happy as Larry when they gave you a tourist visa again. your luck will run out sometime.

[darrendsd]

4 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

 

 

Both of my links included comments from the employment officers or labor dept.. The immigration officer you try to distract with was answering about immigration rules, eg visas.. He said get a B visa BTW. 

Recently chinese language gang busted for purely online work.. Another group charged for lack of correct visa and work permit when also busted for porn. 

 

Do you have links to these?

 

Lack of correct visa WP for porn? Making? Distributing?

[JackThompson]

8 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

Of course you can.. It costs money to do so.. As it does anywhere.. 

I don't need 1M Baht capital for my businesses.  They are digital - all contractors have their own hardware.   I don't need 4 Thai employees, though I would consider hiring them one at a time, when/if I could find them.  Bottom line, the frameworks available do not fit. 

 

Moving the business to HK, and then opening a branch in Thailand might work - maybe for the OP, as well.  That would allow me to get  involved in operations, again, so I could search for Thais to join.  But I have no good info / contacts re: opening a business in HK, and not trusting the "just send $X-thousand to us" links I find with google. 

[rwdrwdrwd]

@JackThompson from personal experience, http://www.asiabs.com/ are very good.

[rwdrwdrwd]

@JackThompson however, a BVI company is a LOT less paperwork and ongoing expense. HK has also made it a lot more difficult to open corporate bank accounts recently.

Been looking into setting up a new business structure recently and leaning toward BVI company, Cyprus bank account. Easy setup, no annual return requirement, no tax on non BVI income. That would be my recommendation for what you describe.

[LivinLOS]

10 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

I don't need 1M Baht capital for my businesses.  They are digital - all contractors have their own hardware.   I don't need 4 Thai employees, though I would consider hiring them one at a time, when/if I could find them.  Bottom line, the frameworks available do not fit. 

 

Moving the business to HK, and then opening a branch in Thailand might work - maybe for the OP, as well.  That would allow me to get  involved in operations, again, so I could search for Thais to join.  But I have no good info / contacts re: opening a business in HK, and not trusting the "just send $X-thousand to us" links I find with google. 

 

 

EDIT sorry was confusing you with a previous poster. 

 

What you do or dont need really isnt the Thais problem... Its up to you to fit into the Thai laws or go where the laws do fit.. Its not up to Thai laws to fit your needs.

Being legal has costs, I dont need many of the things I have to do to satisfy governments, gather taxes for them, etc etc.. It also seems your "I am just a simple freelancer" isnt the full story either, you have contractors and staff.

 

There are multiple ways to legalize, incorporate, use a BOI umbrella company, etc.. The fact you dont wish to bear the costs of legalizing is neither here nor there. The law is still clear on the matter. 

[mngmn]

Try providing useful information to OP! 

 

Another thing to consider as a freelancer working for Thai companies is getting paid.  You will need to provide your  Thai tax registration details.  I am sure many companies will be quite slow to pay with some deciding that since you have little redress (even as a registered Thai company) there is no need to pay you at all.  This happens to Thais running small business completely above board and legit so imagine how exposed you will be if there is anything remotely illegal about the way you are working.

 

Forget the idea there are just to many issues that are difficult, expensive, impossible to resolve.

[jspill]

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

Who says there aren't?

 

We'd have heard about it by now, bloggers tend to make webpages about things that happened to them. 

 

Here's a thread I posted a couple years ago about a blogger who was told he's not a criminal, by Thai police. 

 

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, jspill said:

 

We'd have heard about it by now, bloggers tend to make webpages about things that happened to them. 

 

Here's a thread I posted a couple years ago about a blogger who was told he's not a criminal, by Thai police. 

 

 

I'm not sure prisoners have internet access or charging facilities for their laptops!

[PoorSucker]

If you want to work legally and pay taxes there are umbrella companies that offers that service.

Most freelance don't want to pay any taxes and work illegally.

 

I worked as a IT consultant before I moved here...

[JackThompson]

16 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

EDIT sorry was confusing you with a previous poster. 

 

What you do or dont need really isnt the Thais problem... Its up to you to fit into the Thai laws or go where the laws do fit.. Its not up to Thai laws to fit your needs.

Being legal has costs, I dont need many of the things I have to do to satisfy governments, gather taxes for them, etc etc.. It also seems your "I am just a simple freelancer" isnt the full story either, you have contractors and staff.

 

There are multiple ways to legalize, incorporate, use a BOI umbrella company, etc.. The fact you dont wish to bear the costs of legalizing is neither here nor there. The law is still clear on the matter. 

 

I started out as a freelancer - not in Thailand at that time.  Yes, it is my problem - though I think the Thais could benefit from facilitating small companies with foreign-sourced income (so not in direct competition with Thais, any more than they would be headquartered elsewhere).  The Thai overhead is, in my case, not proportionate to the business size or structure. 

 

But, I see the "branch in Thailand" as a possible option as a way to provide a way to make it work.  In the case of both myself and the OP - could open a branch here and begin operations in the country, pay taxes, etc.  I'd like to branch out here, and he'd like a way to operate his business here, so this might be a possible path.

 

3 minutes ago, PoorSucker said:

If you want to work legally and pay taxes there are umbrella companies that offers that service.

Most freelance don't want to pay any taxes and work illegally.

 

I worked as a IT consultant before I moved here...

 

Unless you know of a better deal than Iglu's 30% of a $2K min in gross-receipts, that isn't much of an option.   The taxes, alone, would be far less, and invoicing is not a significant expense.

[scorecard]

7 hours ago, jspill said:

 

I said freelance for overseas clients. There's no law against that. 

 

I don't choose to convince myself it's still illegal to work online in some capacity that has nothing to do with Thailand, Thai customers, no physical presence here, etc. That lifestyle has served me pretty well so far, been working for an overseas company in Thailand 7 years now. 

 

Maybe true, up to you, but that doesn't change the fact your clearly breaking the Thai laws about work permits.

 

If the actual client is offshore your still clearly breaking the Thai work permit laws.

 

The penalties for being caught working without a WP are severe. Ultimately work choice,

[impulse]

13 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

I started out as a freelancer - not in Thailand at that time.  Yes, it is my problem - though I think the Thais could benefit from facilitating small companies with foreign-sourced income (so not in direct competition with Thais, any more than they would be headquartered elsewhere).  The Thai overhead is, in my case, not proportionate to the business size or structure. 

 

Hard to separate the wheat from the chaff.  I suspect Thailand would love to open up to companies like yours, but struggle to come up with rules that would allow the good ones in to contribute and grow without a flood of wanna-be's tagging along, leaving behind a string of unpaid vendors, unpaid taxes, and western looking kids when they figure out their plan wasn't so good for the Thailand market and they repatriate on a midnight flight.

 

Seems like no matter what rules they come up with, people figure out how to game them.  Some of them are good people caught in a crappy system that keeps tightening up.  Others are oxygen thieves who will do whatever they can to keep the cheap sex flowing.

 

[Get Real]

7 hours ago, jspill said:

 

I said freelance for overseas clients. There's no law against that. 

 

I don't choose to convince myself it's still illegal to work online in some capacity that has nothing to do with Thailand, Thai customers, no physical presence here, etc. That lifestyle has served me pretty well so far, been working for an overseas company in Thailand 7 years now. 

You can turn it around however you want, and what you want or not want to convince yourself about has no relevans. What has relevans is that according to Thai law and regulations you can not even carry a bag of garbage out of your Thai wife´s restaurant without a work permit. Simply explained. No workpermit = No work! Disregarding what you do when you stay inside Thailand.

[LivinLOS]

32 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Unless you know of a better deal than Iglu's 30% of a $2K min in gross-receipts, that isn't much of an option.   The taxes, alone, would be far less, and invoicing is not a significant expense.

 

Its not really tho is it.. When you consider they do it all as a full service package.. 

 

Taxes

Social costs (health insurance)

Lawyers to do your work permits

Lawyers to do your extensions

Office workspace provided (leased lines and all the goods)

 

It used to be 25% of gross but there were not making enough (I think even losing it on some high earners). 

[JackThompson]

4 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

 

Its not really tho is it.. When you consider they do it all as a full service package.. 

 

Taxes

Social costs (health insurance)

Lawyers to do your work permits

Lawyers to do your extensions

Office workspace provided (leased lines and all the goods)

 

It used to be 25% of gross but there were not making enough (I think even losing it on some high earners). 

 

I am sure they must pay a lot into the right hands to keep their operation "in the green zone" with the right people - so not saying they are bad guys, given how hard it is to do such a simple thing here (hence the OP's issue).

 

That said, "workspace" = computer + internet connection + desk (at home); health-insurance is inexpensive (if under 60); lawyers for immigration paperwork are completely unnecessary; a Thai accountant / translator could prepare work-permit docs.  For older folks, it might pay for itself when considering the health-coverage, if they are OK with state-hospital care.

 

The "branch" route might work for a B-Visa and taxes.   Depends on the "lawyer" setup costs for the branch and work-permit paperwork, though.  The system in place, if too convoluted, might just make Tourist Visas (for me, nearing 50) or living elsewhere (for younger entrepreneurs still working their operations full-time and/or those wanting to sell services to locals) the only viable option.

[DaveBKK]

You can turn it around however you want, and what you want or not want to convince yourself about has no relevans. What has relevans is that according to Thai law and regulations you can not even carry a bag of garbage out of your Thai wife´s restaurant without a work permit. Simply explained. No workpermit = No work! Disregarding what you do when you stay inside Thailand.

This isn't really quite correct. Doing online freelancing doesn't apparently violate Thai laws as confirmed by immigration a few years ago when they raided a co-working space. Full story: https://asiancorrespondent.com/2014/10/thailand-immigration-officials-raid-chiang-mai-co-working-space/


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

[Get Real]

5 minutes ago, DaveBKK said:

This isn't really quite correct. Doing online freelancing doesn't apparently violate Thai laws as confirmed by immigration a few years ago when they raided a co-working space. Full story: https://asiancorrespondent.com/2014/10/thailand-immigration-officials-raid-chiang-mai-co-working-space/


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

 

Yep, they say that digital nomads are accepted here doing there work while on tourist visas. That probably mean that you can be accepted visiting Thailand as a tourist and do your digital work at the same time.

In all other cases Immigration has no relevans in the discussion, because it falls under Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Ministry of Labour. There if you read the rules and regulation they do not need a special law against what everyone call freelance or work done by digital nomads. They already have a point that regards "all other work" that doesn´t fall under the specified, and no one of the works mentioned can be done by a foreigner without a work permit.

[balo]

Please stop it now , we've had this discussion too many times in the past. I am a digital nomad freelancer, I do not pay tax in Thailand but my home country , my salary is paid into a bank account in my home country or Paypal .  Even Chiang Mai immigration officials has approved on digital nomads , there's at least 5000 right now working from Chiang Mai . 

 

As long as you have a valid visa to stay in Thailand , you can be active online , working from your laptop.  And at the same time contribute to the economy in Thailand by spending your well earned money here. 

 

 

[darrendsd]

2 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

 

 

Both of my links included comments from the employment officers or labor dept.. The immigration officer you try to distract with was answering about immigration rules, eg visas.. He said get a B visa BTW. 

Recently chinese language gang busted for purely online work.. Another group charged for lack of correct visa and work permit when also busted for porn. 

 

I'm pretty sure that in porn case they would throw the book at them as they were also acting illegally and breaking Thai laws regarding porn

 

Read the link that someone has posted above and before you say Immigration don't deal with people working without a WP i'm pretty sure they would have consulted the Labour Dept before releasing everyone without charge, if they were found to be working illegally they would have been charged, simple as that

 

You can say it is clear that DN's need a WP but actually it isn't, you cannot provide any official links that say it is illegal, either from the Immigration Act or the Labour Dept and until you can (which you can't because there is not any) you have nothing to support your claims

 

For the record I think it is a grey area but the difference between me and you is that I do not make claims I cannot back up

[JLCrab]

It seems to me that, for now, both the Labor Ministry and the Bureau of Immigration are taking the posture that, as long as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs at their Embassies/Consulates are willing to issue an endless stream of Tourist Visas upon request, don't expect us to do anything about what such persons do once they arrive in Thailand.

[LivinLOS]

54 minutes ago, DaveBKK said:

 

This isn't really quite correct. Doing online freelancing doesn't apparently violate Thai laws as confirmed by immigration a few years ago when they raided a co-working space. Full story: https://asiancorrespondent.com/2014/10/thailand-immigration-officials-raid-chiang-mai-co-working-space/


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

 

 Once again.. A miss quoted official (he actually said along the lines of "we are not concerned / involved with that" who is not responsible for that issue.. Saying hes not responsible for that issue.. 

[LivinLOS]

38 minutes ago, balo said:

Please stop it now , we've had this discussion too many times in the past. I am a digital nomad freelancer, I do not pay tax in Thailand but my home country , my salary is paid into a bank account in my home country or Paypal .  Even Chiang Mai immigration officials has approved on digital nomads , there's at least 5000 right now working from Chiang Mai . 

 

As long as you have a valid visa to stay in Thailand , you can be active online , working from your laptop.  And at the same time contribute to the economy in Thailand by spending your well earned money here. 

 

 

 

Not according to the labor dept.. As quoted so many times.. 

[LivinLOS]

35 minutes ago, darrendsd said:

 

I'm pretty sure that in porn case they would throw the book at them 

 

You can say it is clear that DN's need a WP but actually it isn't, you cannot provide any official links that say it is illegal, either from the Immigration Act or the Labour Dept and until you can (which you can't because there is not any) you have nothing to support your claims

1) so if they 'threw the book at them' it means they charged them with a valid law.. They cant be charged with a law that doesnt, as you claim, exist.. 

2) no links ?? You mean other than the definition of work and consistent and multiple statements from the labor dept ?? 

http://www.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers/Is-uploading-videos-YouTube-considered-work/1532

 

However, if you turn on YouTube ads while living in Thailand, or post them in your own blog where they can collect revenue, this could be considered work. Even if you posted videos while outside Thailand, but then activated or turned on ads related to them, this would still be considered work, as you would be making money while in the country. It means you are working while you are living in the Kingdom. 

 

http://www.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers/Do-need-0145business-visa-work-online/1175

Somkiat Baiadul, an officer at the work permit division of the Phuket Department of Employment

 

Doing business online is considered a type of work, so foreigners are required to have a work permit to do so.

 

Where exactly is the grey in that statement ?? 

[darrendsd]

1 minute ago, LivinLOS said:

1) so if they 'threw the book at them' it means they charged them with a valid law.. They cant be charged with a law that doesnt, as you claim, exist.. 

2) no links ?? You mean other than the definition of work and consistent and multiple statements from the labor dept ?? 

http://www.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers/Is-uploading-videos-YouTube-considered-work/1532

 

However, if you turn on YouTube ads while living in Thailand, or post them in your own blog where they can collect revenue, this could be considered work. Even if you posted videos while outside Thailand, but then activated or turned on ads related to them, this would still be considered work, as you would be making money while in the country. It means you are working while you are living in the Kingdom. 

 

http://www.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers/Do-need-0145business-visa-work-online/1175

Somkiat Baiadul, an officer at the work permit division of the Phuket Department of Employment

 

Doing business online is considered a type of work, so foreigners are required to have a work permit to do so.

 

Where exactly is the grey in that statement ?? 

 

Because you will have different Officers saying different things, TIT

 

The ones in CM were not charged with any offence that really should tell you it's a grey area, if the rules on DN were clear they would have been charged however the rules are not clear WHICH IS MY EXACT POINT

 

Show me links from either the Immigration Act or the  OFFICIAL Labour Dept website not just one officers take on the subject and I will stand corrected

 

But you can't, you just keep repeating the same source over and over again

[JackThompson]

It seems to me the whole "legal" vs "illegal" argument boils down the 3 points, relevant to the OP:

 

1. Thai Labor Law requires a work permit from any work not specifically exempted, and working online is not exempted.
2. Immigration and Labor are not currently pursuing these cases, as a matter of "policy," except where other laws may be broken in conjunction or, perhaps, if you tick-off the wrong person, and they want to throw the book at you.  People caught "red-handed" have been let go without charges.
3. At any time, they could change their "policy" and show up at work-centers, etc and round-up people found working there, plus anyone who puts up video or solicitations advertising their activity.  Those working quietly at home would be harder to detect.

Therefore, OP, if you come here expecting to work online, be aware of this situation.

[Get Real]

4 minutes ago, darrendsd said:

 

Because you will have different Officers saying different things, TIT

 

The ones in CM were not charged with any offence that really should tell you it's a grey area, if the rules on DN were clear they would have been charged however the rules are not clear WHICH IS MY EXACT POINT

 

Show me links from either the Immigration Act or the  OFFICIAL Labour Dept website not just one officers take on the subject and I will stand corrected

 

But you can't, you just keep repeating the same source over and over again

Why is everybody so misinformed? This is simple. First you can not do any work without a workpermit in Thailand. That´s just a fact. If there are people that work different with this is not relevant, because nobody in any kind of work can hold one line when working in this country. The fact is that you can´t work in Thailand without a work permit. That says the law.

Let´s just for a little while let you amuse me. Let´s say that it´s a grey area regarding digital nomads, because it´s not written anything about the specific work due to that the laws aren´t uppdated since this became popular.
This tread regarded people that wants to live and do work on Internet in Thailand. How you choose to look at it, you will get a problem. If you work over half year in Thailand you are, by law, bound to pay tax on your income in this country. You can not get a TIN, without being employed or own a company together with a work permit. Makes you can not pay tax, and therefore are still working illigal. Just sums it up, doesn´t it?

[ubonjoe]

This topic is now  since it has degenerated into a back and forth discussion that is nothing more than bickering between a handful of members. 

There have been many topics that have discussed this before.