Nationwide UK: received form from them

[macahoom]

 

I have received an “International tax compliance regulations self-certification form” from my Nationwide UK bank (building society).

 

Anyone else?

 

What do you make of it?

[doctormann]

I received one of thee forms from Aegon (aka Scottish Equitable).

 

I'm not totally sure why this is required but it's something to do with informing HMRC about your tax status - if you don't return the form.

 

As it's self-certification it's easy enough to do but I managed to confuse them a bit by being resident in Thailand.  They seemed to think that I had some tax liability here, which I don't because the dual taxation treaty between Thailand and UK is operative.  They wanted some proof that I had no liability here - probably not possible to prove this directly but I sent them a copy of my current PAYE Coding Notice and that seems to have satisfied them.

 

 

 

 

[macahoom]

20 minutes ago, doctormann said:

I received one of thee forms from Aegon (aka Scottish Equitable).

 

I'm not totally sure why this is required but it's something to do with informing HMRC about your tax status - if you don't return the form.

 

As it's self-certification it's easy enough to do but I managed to confuse them a bit by being resident in Thailand.  They seemed to think that I had some tax liability here, which I don't because the dual taxation treaty between Thailand and UK is operative.  They wanted some proof that I had no liability here - probably not possible to prove this directly but I sent them a copy of my current PAYE Coding Notice and that seems to have satisfied them.

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you for your reply.

 

I have a feeling they may question me further as well:

 

I have never worked here (Thailand). I have lived here year-round for about 12 years. I do not pay tax in the UK or here.

 

The form does not appear to take into consideration the fact that people in my situation exist. 

[Expattaff1308]

I too received the same from Nationwide, I responded but queried it with them, here is their reply:-

Quote

Thank you for your message today. 

Apologies for any confusion concerning your tax form. 
Whilst it does say USA citizen more prominently than anything else, what we mean is are you a citizen outside of the UK and Europe. 
You'd have been sent this as you're registered address with us is a Thai one, and the form is just to check and confirm you're paying the correct tax on any income you receive. 

I'd like to thank you for filling out and returning the form to us, as well as for being a loyal customer to us over the years. 

I hope this clears things up for you, and again, apologies for any confusion- maybe we need to look at re naming our forms! 

I do still pay Tax on my pension in the UK

Edited December 16, 2016 by Expattaff1308

[doctormann]

39 minutes ago, Expattaff1308 said:

I too received the same from Nationwide, I responded but queried it with them, here is their reply:-

I do still pay Tax on my pension in the UK

 

Me too!

[NUUM]

Thank you for your message today. 
"...the form is just to check and confirm you're paying the correct tax on any income you receive. "

 

Correct tax in which country ? 

[SchadeBoy]

41 minutes ago, NUUM said:

Thank you for your message today. 
"...the form is just to check and confirm you're paying the correct tax on any income you receive. "

 

Correct tax in which country ? 

The UK 

[Savilesghost]

6 hours ago, macahoom said:

 

Thank you for your reply.

 

I have a feeling they may question me further as well:

 

I have never worked here (Thailand). I have lived here year-round for about 12 years. I do not pay tax in the UK or here.

 

The form does not appear to take into consideration the fact that people in my situation exist. 

 

HMRC are starting to go after people who are fiddling their tax and or their pensions and they are checking up on people who appear to be resident for tax in the UK but claim to live somewhere else, these checks are going to get more frequent on "strange" accounts...ie someone has UK bank accounts, possibly property they are renting out and the person claims they live in another country are going to be put under the microscope by the UK tax man,

 

Dont forget things like interest on savings and investment accounts are no longer automatically taxed and one normally needs to submit a "tax return" if one is renting out property in the UK  

 

The only "clean way" as regards non residency for tax in the UK is to have no property there, no bank accounts, no property and dpend less than 90 days per year in the UK

 

 if one is maintaining a UK address and bank account to claim pension increases and things like winter fuel payments but in fact you live in Thailand year round, there is a chance they will come after you for fraud 

 

Below are the new "tests" for non residency for tax in the UK which is a good reference 

 

http://www.expertsforexpats.com/expat-tax/statutory-residence-test/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[lucky11]

23 hours ago, macahoom said:

 

Thank you for your reply.

 

I have a feeling they may question me further as well:

 

I have never worked here (Thailand). I have lived here year-round for about 12 years. I do not pay tax in the UK or here.

 

The form does not appear to take into consideration the fact that people in my situation exist. 

 

 I have had a bank account with the Nationwide for 10 years - when I retired to Thailand aged 51. It (the bank account) is registered in England at my parents address. I have not received one of these. Is this the reason why? or are your accounts also registered at an England address.

[macahoom]

18 minutes ago, lucky11 said:

 

 I have had a bank account with the Nationwide for 10 years - when I retired to Thailand aged 51. It (the bank account) is registered in England at my parents address. I have not received one of these. Is this the reason why? or are your accounts also registered at an England address.

 

The address for my account is a Thai one.

 

If the address for your account is a UK one, you will not be required to fill in this form. They will not send you one.

 

In case you don't know: it is impossible to open a new account with the Nationwide (and every other UK bank, I believe) using a Thai address, but the address for an existing account can be easily changed from a UK one to a Thai one.

[al007]

17 hours ago, Savilesghost said:

 

The only "clean way" as regards non residency for tax in the UK is to have no property there, no bank accounts, no property and dpend less than 90 days per year in the UK

 

 if one is maintaining a UK address and bank account to claim pension increases and things like winter fuel payments but in fact you live in Thailand year round, there is a chance they will come after you for fraud 

 

Below are the new "tests" for non residency for tax in the UK which is a good reference 

 

http://www.expertsforexpats.com/expat-tax/statutory-residence-test/

 

Some very good and simple advice

 

Many here get pension increases by claiming to be in the UK, if caught the consequences are dire

 

I would as a simple retired Chartered Accountant advise those who are beating the system, and advise the UK you are now in Thailand, and then hopefully what you have already received will stay safe and not be challenged

 

The UK authorities are becoming far more sophisticated in identifying fraud, which is what those who use UK addresses are doing

[lucky11]

13 minutes ago, al007 said:

 

Some very good and simple advice

 

Many here get pension increases by claiming to be in the UK, if caught the consequences are dire

 

I would as a simple retired Chartered Accountant advise those who are beating the system, and advise the UK you are now in Thailand, and then hopefully what you have already received will stay safe and not be challenged

 

The UK authorities are becoming far more sophisticated in identifying fraud, which is what those who use UK addresses are doing

 

 I have severed all ties to the UK but simply have my Nationwide account registered there to collect my company pension. I have been withdrawing it for 10 years from an ATM in Thailand now on a monthly basis so they must assume that I don't live in the UK

[DiDiChok]

I noted a clever change in the terms and conditions when I renewed my UK photocard Driving Licence recently, in that you sign to confirm that you are a UK resident.  It would be a shame if you thought you were non-resident and tripped up over that one.

[al007]

6 minutes ago, lucky11 said:

 

 I have severed all ties to the UK but simply have my Nationwide account registered there to collect my company pension. I have been withdrawing it for 10 years from an ATM in Thailand now on a monthly basis so they must assume that I don't live in the UK

 

Using ATM is expensive maybe you have internet banking and transfer to Bangkok bank in London they will send it to your Bangkok bank sterling foreign currency account here in Thailand, cost around 20 pounds plus a little, so do it once a month

[lucky11]

2 minutes ago, DiDiChok said:

I noted a clever change in the terms and conditions when I renewed my UK photocard Driving Licence recently, in that you sign to confirm that you are a UK resident.  It would be a shame if you thought you were non-resident and tripped up over that one.

 

 I cant drive - never bothered to learn to and my Thai wife drives. I will be 60 in January and my younger brother who also cannot drive is 56.

[lucky11]

1 minute ago, al007 said:

 

Using ATM is expensive maybe you have internet banking and transfer to Bangkok bank in London they will send it to your Bangkok bank sterling foreign currency account here in Thailand, cost around 20 pounds plus a little, so do it once a month

 

 The thing is, sometimes I like to keep it in the UK for holidaying In the UK, plus,  because I retired so early (51) my pension isn't that much and it would end up costing me more doing it this way rather than through ATM withdrawals.

[Savilesghost]

1 hour ago, lucky11 said:

 

 I have severed all ties to the UK but simply have my Nationwide account registered there to collect my company pension. I have been withdrawing it for 10 years from an ATM in Thailand now on a monthly basis so they must assume that I don't live in the UK

And this is the thing, you havent severed all ties with UK, as your maintaining a bank account there, if you couple that with spending "excessive" amounts of time in UK in a tax year, and you have direct family living there, HMRC can get it in their heads you are resident for tax in the UK and come looking for you

 

The whole resident/non resident for tax thing was changed in 2013 and its gone beyond just the number of days spent in the UK in any given tax year 

 

I read of a case some time back of a British pilot, who was resident in South Africa, who had a flat near heathrow which he stayed in on his layovers, he claimed non residency in UK for tax puposes, and the HMRC nailed his a@se to the wall because of the flat near Heathrow

 

 

 

[lucky11]

1 minute ago, Savilesghost said:

And this is the thing, you havent severed all ties with UK, as your maintaining a bank account there, if you couple that with spending "excessive" amounts of time in UK in a tax year, and you have direct family living there, HMRC can get it in their heads you are resident for tax in the UK and come looking for you

 

The whole resident/non resident for tax thing was changed in 2013 and its gone beyond just the number of days spent in the UK in any given tax year 

 

I read of a case some time back of a British pilot, who was resident in South Africa, who had a flat near heathrow which he stayed in on his layovers, he claimed non residency in UK for tax puposes, and the HMRC nailed his a@se to the wall because of the flat near Heathrow

 

 

 

 

 The tax authorities are fully aware of my situation and I never spend more than 30 days in the UK in a single year - I haven't been back for 2 years.

 The address that my bank account is registered to is completely severed from me. My two brothers are the owners now so I have no investments, property and zero financial ties with the UK.

 The only thing I have, other than family there now is my bank account with the Nationwide, so no worries for me.

[al007]

39 minutes ago, lucky11 said:

 

 The tax authorities are fully aware of my situation and I never spend more than 30 days in the UK in a single year - I haven't been back for 2 years.

 The address that my bank account is registered to is completely severed from me. My two brothers are the owners now so I have no investments, property and zero financial ties with the UK.

 The only thing I have, other than family there now is my bank account with the Nationwide, so no worries for me.

 

You are absolutely clean ' let the moan and complain brigade worry you

 

Happy Christmas

[SunsetT]

2 hours ago, al007 said:

 

Using ATM is expensive maybe you have internet banking and transfer to Bangkok bank in London they will send it to your Bangkok bank sterling foreign currency account here in Thailand, cost around 20 pounds plus a little, so do it once a month

Nationwide Flexplus account for £10 per month allows free ATM withdrawals abroad....Still liable for 200thb Thai bank rip off ATM fee though. Try worldfirst.co.uk or .com for free international transfers. I've been using them for a year now. Good service.

Edited December 17, 2016 by SunsetT

[Bogbrush]

I got the same type of letter and form from Barclays IOM and I think it's more serious than some guys think; for example, there're asking for your residential address in whichever country you're residing in (the assumption seems to be you're not in the U.K.) and also are basically saying they will pass your bank account status to the country of residence as a matter of course - that's how I read it.

 

The self-assessment form also asks for your current TIN (tax identification number) or a reason why you don't have one.... this has the propensity to open up a whole world of hurt.

[Baerboxer]

On 12/16/2016 at 11:58 AM, SchadeBoy said:

The UK 

 

No it's not. It's a form being used to request your confirmation of country of residence for tax purposes. If you do not register, and satisfy any request they make to prove your declaration, they will assume you are resident in the UK.

 

If you have income arising in the UK and complete a UK tax return you've nothing to worry about. 

[Baerboxer]

2 hours ago, Bogbrush said:

I got the same type of letter and form from Barclays IOM and I think it's more serious than some guys think; for example, there're asking for your residential address in whichever country you're residing in (the assumption seems to be you're not in the U.K.) and also are basically saying they will pass your bank account status to the country of residence as a matter of course - that's how I read it.

 

The self-assessment form also asks for your current TIN (tax identification number) or a reason why you don't have one.... this has the propensity to open up a whole world of hurt.

 

It does but the driver here is HMRC and EU. The former are putting off-shore providers under pressure to make sure they check more and more about their clients - proof of ID; proof of address; proof of source of assets held with them and income; and now this. They want to transfer the onus of checking to the account provider as they don't have the staff themselves. 

 

Therefore, even though they know your current address, and you may have been out of the UK for years of which they've been aware; they are asking that you fill this in. If not, they will assume you are still resident for tax purposes in the UK (which you may be under the new points scheme depending on your personal circumstances) and automatically provide HMRC with your account details and interest each year.

 

This is about them covering their <deleted> should HMRC ask. The old "look we've got a signed form and a TIN for country x" defense. 

[Baerboxer]

7 hours ago, lucky11 said:

 

 The tax authorities are fully aware of my situation and I never spend more than 30 days in the UK in a single year - I haven't been back for 2 years.

 The address that my bank account is registered to is completely severed from me. My two brothers are the owners now so I have no investments, property and zero financial ties with the UK.

 The only thing I have, other than family there now is my bank account with the Nationwide, so no worries for me.

 

There is a points system now to determine UK residency - sounds like you are fine though. More that just days spent in the UK, but unless you work over there, own property, have children under 18 resident there etc then nothing to worry about.

 

Do you complete a UK tax return ? If so there are explanatory notes on the Residence rules. If not, just go on their website.

[partington]

You all have got this back to front: it is NOT about being taxed by the UK.

 

In simple terms 100 or so countries have signed up to an automatic exchange of information agreement that starts for some countries in 2017, and the rest in 2018.  This is modelled on the US FATCA agreement, which basically compelled any bank in any country in the world to identify US citizens who have accounts with that bank, and send the information back to the US.  This is because, unlike every other country in the world (except Eritrea) the US taxes by citizenship and not by residency, so a US citizen living abroad must declare his income to the US even if none of it derives from the US.

 

Other countries that base their taxation on residency (world-wide income is taxable only on tax residents) not citizenship saw a similar agreement would make it easier to collect taxes on accounts that could be hidden because they were in other countries

 

As an example if a person living (tax resident) in Cyprus happened to be a UK citizen and have an account in the UK, he would be able to avoid Cypriot tax on income by  not revealing that this account exists to the Cypriot tax authorities. Similarly if a Cypriot went to live in the UK and had a huge investment account in Cyprus, he could avoid UK tax on income from this investment by simply not revealing the existence of this account to HMRC.

 

Now with this new agreement all the countries involved have agreed to share information automatically without being asked, and the first step is to identify the tax residency of account holders. Anyone with a foreign address or foreign deposits/withdrawals is suspected of having a tax residency in a country other than that where the account is held, and so is asked to say what countries they are tax resident in. Tax residency does NOT mean that you pay tax in that country, it means that if you WERE liable for tax, what country would you have to pay it to? Thus if you live in Thailand for 183 days you are tax resident, even if you never owe or never have to pay tax.

 

In the UK the agreed legal mechanism for information exchange is through HMRC, as the banks cannot share  your account information directly with a foreign government (except to the US as part of FATCA). This is why UK banks are asking for your residency information, and telling you they can report it to other tax authorities. They are not trying to find out if you are tax resident in the UK, but if you are tax resident anywhere else. If you say  to your UK bank 'I am tax resident in Cyprus' your bank is legally obliged to send  this information to HMRC, who will then pass it on to the Cypriot tax office, who will then tax you on your UK account income that you hoped to keep hidden.

 

Thailand is not part of this agreement, has shown no interest in signing up to it, and is not included in the information exchange. If you declare tax residency in Thailand your bank will not even bother to pass this information to HMRC, because this is not a "reportable account" under the OECD agreement, and so there is nowhere for HMRC to send this information and no legal requirement for them to pass it on.

 

This page and various links on it explain what this is about. HMRC is now a tax reporter to other countries and this is not fundamentally about identifying whether you owe UK tax, but about HMRC helping other states identify whether you owe them tax.

http://www.oecd.org/tax/automatic-exchange/crs-implementation-and-assistance/

Edited December 17, 2016 by partington
made example clearer I hope

[chiang mai]

I saw the OP's post and was going to try and reply but decided against it because it was going to be difficult to explain, I'm pleased however that Partington has answered the point and also made a good job of doing so.

[Expattaff1308]

8 hours ago, SunsetT said:

Nationwide Flexplus account for £10 per month allows free ATM withdrawals abroad....Still liable for 200thb Thai bank rip off ATM fee though. Try worldfirst.co.uk or .com for free international transfers. I've been using them for a year now. Good service.

I tried to sign up to Worldfirst.co.uk and got the following message:-

Quote

Unfortunately we can’t service clients in Thailand. However, if you have another residence outside of Thailand we might be able to help.

 

[misterphil]

14 hours ago, al007 said:

 

Using ATM is expensive maybe you have internet banking and transfer to Bangkok bank in London they will send it to your Bangkok bank sterling foreign currency account here in Thailand, cost around 20 pounds plus a little, so do it once a month

Use transferwise.com to transfer money from the UK to Thailand and the rate is 1%

 

 

[jacko45k]

Standard Chartered sent me one a month ago, just big-brother EU controlling the world!

 

I don't think there is much choice but to fill it in, possibly as vaguely as you can!

Edited December 17, 2016 by jacko45k

[al007]

13 hours ago, partington said:

 

Thailand is not part of this agreement, has shown no interest in signing up to it, and is not included in the information exchange. If you declare tax residency in Thailand your bank will not even bother to pass this information to HMRC, because this is not a "reportable account" under the OECD agreement, and so there is nowhere for HMRC to send this information and no legal requirement for them to pass it on.

 

This page and various links on it explain what this is about. HMRC is now a tax reporter to other countries and this is not fundamentally about identifying whether you owe UK tax, but about HMRC helping other states identify whether you owe them tax.

http://www.oecd.org/tax/automatic-exchange/crs-implementation-and-assistance/

 

Valuable information

 

Many people fail to appreciate how tax friendly Thailand is to retirees, I am not an expert but my understanding is pensions in Thailand are Tax free

 

Overseas income is not taxable in Thailand so long as it is not remitted in the years it is earnt, so IOM /Channel Islands accounts are not at risk

 

Savings remitted are not taxed

 

So with a little care one can live in retirement in Thailand and legally pay no tax, even if a very wealthy person

 

I am not wealthy but only pay tax at 2.5% on deduction at source on my QROPS pension from Gibraltar

 

Really very nice, makes up for a few of the minor irritations, like 90 day reports

Edited December 18, 2016 by al007