Best way to handle profiteering scam in our condo?

[Mike West]

The juristic manager at our condo is clearly profiteering, what is the best way to approach this or get them sacked etc? 

[muzmurray]

12 minutes ago, Mike West said:

The juristic manager at our condo is clearly profiteering, what is the best way to approach this or get them sacked etc? 

 

A few more details of how might help people advise on your course of action.

 

[Mike West]

15 minutes ago, muzmurray said:

 

A few more details of how might help people advise on your course of action.

 

What kind of details? the manager is clearly profiteering, I don't know what details you need. 

[Briggsy]

You need to gain control of the condominium juristic person committee.

[muzmurray]

2 minutes ago, Mike West said:

What kind of details? the manager is clearly profiteering, I don't know what details you need. 

 

How is he making an excess profit?

 

Charging for non-existent services? Over charging, (in your opinion), for services? Petty fines for petty infringements of the condo's rules?

 

Now do you see why details are important?

[Berkshire]

4 minutes ago, Mike West said:

What kind of details? the manager is clearly profiteering, I don't know what details you need. 

 

"Clearly profiteering?"  So you have evidence of this?  Not hearsay or gossip.  But actual evidence.

[Mike West]

Just now, Berkshire said:

 

"Clearly profiteering?"  So you have evidence of this?  Not hearsay or gossip.  But actual evidence.

Yes I do.  

[Peterw42]

Is the manager misappropriating funds, is he doing a second job on condo time, is he selling and renting real estate for commission? Profiteering is a vague description.

If its illeagal, report to police. If its against condo bylaws, speak to the commitee etc

 

[Mike West]

1 minute ago, Peterw42 said:

Is the manager misappropriating funds, is he doing a second job on condo time, is he selling and renting real estate for commission? Profiteering is a vague description.

If its illeagal, report to police. If its against condo bylaws, speak to the commitee etc

 

Ok thank you, finally someone with some real advice, typical of TV, there are so many jealous trolls on here. 

[SaintLouisBlues]

Just now, Mike West said:

Ok thank you, finally someone with some real advice, typical of TV, there are so many jealous trolls on here. 

I'd have thought it was such a statement of the bleeding obvious you wouldn't need to ask. Have you never owned property before?

[theguyfromanotherforum]

6 minutes ago, Mike West said:

Ok thank you, finally someone with some real advice, typical of TV, there are so many jealous trolls on here. 

 

I am sorry I upset you and as a result you sent me a pile of abusive private messages. I was just stating my opinion. I can assure you that I am not jealous of you being ripped off.

[Prbkk]

Generally those on the committees are long standing owners, both Thai and farang, and complacent, wanting an easy life. A bit of 'padding' goes unchallenged. But when it becomes more serious and sinister, the only way to deal with it is to have membership of the committee and oversight of the accounts...and even then it's not easy. The last thing you want to do is make yourself a target by making allegations that are difficult to prove.

[worgeordie]

In what way is it affecting you ?,you have not answered requests 

on how the manager is clearly profiteering.

regards worgeordie

[sandemara]

21 minutes ago, Mike West said:

Ok thank you, finally someone with some real advice, typical of TV, there are so many jealous trolls on here.

 Would you count Drama Queen responses as a form of trolling too?

[Peterw42]

9 minutes ago, sandemara said:

 Would you count Drama Queen responses as a form of trolling too?

 

Asking for help then not saying what the problem is, could also be seen as trolling.

[A1Str8]

If you have evidence then what's the problem? Report it to the police. 

[LannaGuy]

I have been through this a few times... very, very difficult and my top six advice would be:

 

1. get control of the committee
2. elect an honest JPM or even better outsource the JPM as I have done three times
3. elect a farang Treasurer
4. review and revise the Condo Regulations 
5. get honest cheque co-signatories - one normally the JPM the other a committee member
6. do NOT challenge, head on, the JP who I assume is also the condo manager but do so by stealth as I have indicated above

good luck and vote, vote, vote  (be careful you have list of owners emails etc. to get proxies)

Edited January 4, 2017 by LannaGuy

[Rc2702]

You wanna get some hard evidence before making accusations to the law.

 

 

[NancyL]

Some good advice on this thread.  (also, some not-so-good).  Big question is if the "profiteering" is clearly benefiting the JM and not delivering value to the owners/renters.  As a renter in a long-established Chiang Mai condo building, I like the convenience of being able to go to the JM office and say "once again Hubby has gone off to a Rotary meeting in another country for a couple days and locked me out of the condo.  Can you please call in that locksmith that arrives in 20 minutes".  Sure I know the guy probably charges 100 baht more than the guy at Kad Suan Kaew mall, but I get to sit in the coffee shop at the condo and wait for the anointed guy to show up and let me into our condo.  Same with other services like pest control, air con cleaning, window repair, etc.  Sure, I know there is probably a kick-back from the "preferred" supplier to the condo office, but I also know they don't remain as the preferred supplier for long if they don't perform.  We had a few complaints about the preferred pest control people only coming on Friday mornings when we were out, and that was solved without us doing more than expressing mild displeasure.

 

 

[NancyL]

If the JM is doing more, like showing and renting vacant condos on behalf of absent property owners, then you'll find that's another service that is almost the norm here in Thailand.

 

If your concerns are more serious, then you have several choices.  You can get law enforcement involved (probably not a good idea) or you can decide to lead a grass-roots efforts over several years to totally reclaim management of the condo.  I know where this has happened to several buildings in Chiang Mai with very good results.  Hope you have some deep pockets.

[kannot]

13 hours ago, Mike West said:

Ok thank you, finally someone with some real advice, typical of TV, there are so many jealous trolls on here. 

Failure to let anyone know how he is profiteering really DOESNT help at all.............. wind yer angry neck in

[dbrenn]

Don't make accusations as others have said. Just organise a vote to change the management company at the next committee meeting. 

[KittenKong]

As usual, much confusion over what various people in a building actually do.

 

The Juristic Person Manager (JPM) is appointed by co-owner vote at a GM. His normal term is for two years after which time another election must be held. Under very particular circumstances, and as a temporary measure, the committee may appoint one of its own to be JPM pending a GM. The JPM is legally responsible for what happens in the building and is required by law to ensure that certain things do happen properly (regular GMs, financial statements, registrations, ownership quotas etc). This position can be salaried or not, and can be occupied by more or less anyone of suitable age and standing, co-owner or not. The JPM can overrule the committee, should he consider it to be in the building's best interest.

 

The building manager (if any) is merely a staff member, appointed by the committee (possibly through a management company, if any). He has no real authority and can be sacked at any time like any employee.

 

Sometimes, especially in smaller buildings, the JPM is also the building manager.

 

[KittenKong]

16 hours ago, LannaGuy said:

I have been through this a few times... very, very difficult and my top six advice would be:

 

1. get control of the committee
2. elect an honest JPM or even better outsource the JPM as I have done three times
3. elect a farang Treasurer
4. review and revise the Condo Regulations 
5. get honest cheque co-signatories - one normally the JPM the other a committee member
6. do NOT challenge, head on, the JP who I assume is also the condo manager but do so by stealth as I have indicated above

good luck and vote, vote, vote  (be careful you have list of owners emails etc. to get proxies)

 

This all looks good on paper but may be very hard to do in practice if the JPM or management or committee are corrupt (which happens far more often than some might think). There can be massive manipulation of proxy votes by the JPM, which renders any real votes largely worthless. The level of corruption here can be quite incredible and many co-owners are blind to it.

 

(4) may not be possible. It would not be in my building as we never have enough attendees at GMs.

 

As far as (5) goes, I think it is an extremely bad idea for the JPM to be a signatory to cheques (unless perhaps he is also a co-owner). Only co-owners should be bank signatories, and I think that three should be required as a minimum.
I also think that it is a bad idea for the management company to act as JPM, as then they are their own boss. This is also quite common here though.

[LannaGuy]

1 hour ago, KittenKong said:

 

This all looks good on paper but may be very hard to do in practice if the JPM or management or committee are corrupt (which happens far more often than some might think). There can be massive manipulation of proxy votes by the JPM, which renders any real votes largely worthless. The level of corruption here can be quite incredible and many co-owners are blind to it.

 

(4) may not be possible. It would not be in my building as we never have enough attendees at GMs.

 

As far as (5) goes, I think it is an extremely bad idea for the JPM to be a signatory to cheques (unless perhaps he is also a co-owner). Only co-owners should be bank signatories, and I think that three should be required as a minimum.
I also think that it is a bad idea for the management company to act as JPM, as then they are their own boss. This is also quite common here though.

 

Been there and done it a few times (I didn't say it was easy)

 

I have already made it clear that proxy votes are the key to it all as (4) does not need 'attendees' it needs proxies. As for (5) you are totally wrong, I'm sorry to say,  it is ESSENTIAL that the JPM co-signs the cheques as the JPM is the ONLY one legally responsible for the condo and condo finances and no one wants the JPM to be able to say 'it wasn't me' if an investigation takes place. They MUST be accountable and that means co-signing cheques and the same for Bank signatories the JPM is essential as a co-signatory to take 'ownership' and responsibility for what happens legally.  Please be careful when giving advice because what you have said is bad advice.

[LannaGuy]

1 hour ago, KittenKong said:

As usual, much confusion over what various people in a building actually do.

 

The Juristic Person Manager (JPM) is appointed by co-owner vote at a GM. His normal term is for two years after which time another election must be held. Under very particular circumstances, and as a temporary measure, the committee may appoint one of its own to be JPM pending a GM. The JPM is legally responsible for what happens in the building and is required by law to ensure that certain things do happen properly (regular GMs, financial statements, registrations, ownership quotas etc). This position can be salaried or not, and can be occupied by more or less anyone of suitable age and standing, co-owner or not. The JPM can overrule the committee, should he consider it to be in the building's best interest.

 

The building manager (if any) is merely a staff member, appointed by the committee (possibly through a management company, if any). He has no real authority and can be sacked at any time like any employee.

 

Sometimes, especially in smaller buildings, the JPM is also the building manager.

 

 

Please be careful as some of this is incorrect. There is only ONE person who manages the condo and condo staff and that is the JPM not the committee. Staff are NOT appointed by the committee nor can they legally have any say in how the staff are managed including for visa reasons. The committee are there to 'monitor' the JPM etc. and can 'suggest' to the JPM priorities but the JPM is under no legal obligation to adhere to the committee's 'requests'. Also where did you get this 2 year rule from? 

[Peterw42]

6 minutes ago, LannaGuy said:

 

Please be careful as some of this is incorrect. There is only ONE person who manages the condo and condo staff and that is the JPM not the committee. Staff are NOT appointed by the committee nor can they legally have any say in how the staff are managed including for visa reasons. The committee are there to 'monitor' the JPM etc. and can 'suggest' to the JPM priorities but the JPM is under no legal obligation to adhere to the committee's 'requests'. Also where did you get this 2 year rule from? 

 

The 2 year thing is in the condo act, JPM duties are usually (or should be) defined in an employment contract. JPM has obligation to the committee, the committee can sack JPM.

[LannaGuy]

5 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

 

The 2 year thing is in the condo act, JPM duties are usually (or should be) defined in an employment contract. JPM has obligation to the committee, the committee can sack JPM.

 

It's just not true please be careful. The committee CANNOT sack the JPM only the owners at an AGM or EGM and a JPM can ONLY be appointed by the owners. You are factually wrong. 

 

PS Condo Act does not stipulate 2 years - this is for the committee term and you are becoming confused between the two

Edited January 5, 2017 by LannaGuy

[Peterw42]

11 minutes ago, LannaGuy said:

 

It's just not true please be careful. The committee CANNOT sack the JPM only the owners at an AGM or EGM and a JPM can ONLY be appointed by the owners. You are factually wrong. 

 

PS Condo Act does not stipulate 2 years - this is for the committee term and you are becoming confused between the two

 

Yes, you are right. But Committee can arrange the meeting and call for votes to sack etc.

Although not in the act, I thought it was pretty standard to sign up the JPM to a 2 year contract, same as the committee. (Thats probably more a coincidence, at the blocks I have been involved with).

[LannaGuy]

7 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

 

Yes, you are right. But Committee can arrange the meeting and call for votes to sack etc.

Although not in the act, I thought it was pretty standard to sign up the JPM to a 2 year contract, same as the committee. (Thats probably more a coincidence, at the blocks I have been involved with).

 

Sorry peter I don't mean or enjoy contradicting you but I do think we need to be clear for the OP's sake. 

 

Yes the committee CAN call an EGM (as can the owners and the JPM) but let's be clear - the owners elect the JPM with a 50%+ vote and can choose a new one the same way NOT the committee. The JPM, once elected, does not have a term UNLESS stipulated by the owners (usually in the Condo Regulations) but there is no hard and fast rule and, as you agree, it's not in the Condo Act. 

 

It's a minefield, i know, from long experience - hope all goes well, cheers