Refugees in Greece and Serbia forced to endure sub-zero temperatures

[LammyTS1]

 
If I had of said "most British people" you would have had a point, but as I didn't, and in fact did not generalise on British people as a whole, then you have no point at all, your desperation is leading to you writing utter nonsense, give it a rest.
 
Nothing stopping a U.K. Student applying for the job, other than not being able to compete for whatever reason with the immigrants, now what reason could that be?  And you are of course wrongly assuming that the seasonal work is during the summer when most of it is in the Autumn, perhaps you have never even noticed what season fruit and veg are ready to be picked!
 
Having been a UK employer I can assure you I was not given a minority quota, not that there are not unemployed minorities in the U.K.?  Right?  Lol, how daft can you get, and we have a minimum wage, they can pay that to an immigrant or a British citizen the same, but it is the immigrants who apply and the immigrants who get the job while the British unemployed do nothing to change their situation except moan about immigrants.

You are profiling MOST British citizens, shameful that you tar most people with the same brush.

When I picked fruit & veg as a student, I never saw 1 migrant working alongside
me so why do we suddenly need them when we never before?

Minimum wage? Ha ha. Tell that to all the Indian restaurants and all the other employers who are raided each year and fined for employing illegal immigrants!


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[LammyTS1]

 
Who said they were in Europe?  Not me!  The suggestion was first that Saudi should take them all, and then that the US should take them all, nothing about where they happen to be at the moment, what would what continent they are in have to do with who should take them?
 
The ISIS attacks are in attempt to create fear of genuine refugees and halt their embarrassment of having their people walk out on them, it is only the likes of you who are helping them.
 
Calling people who are fleeing a war economic migrants is not only factually incorrect but also demonstrates a shameful lack of humanity, I don't suppose you would know much about that though!

Genuine refugees? So perhaps 1% of the people currently in Greece & Serbia!

Yes I have humanity and will show that to the genuine 1%.

Fleeing war? Sorry I did not realise that Tunisia, Morocco & Egypt was at war?



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[dick dasterdly]

4 minutes ago, yogi100 said:

 

There are those who hates their own kind Dick. They'll always take the side of a member of any ethnic minority, immigrant or an asylum seeker each and every time no matter what the issue. They're what's described as self haters. I don't know what makes them tick unless it's because they were bullied at school like Ken Livingstone.

 

Nationalism to them is a dirty word yet they never the less see fit to visit a country that regularly deports Burmese, Laotian and Cambodian nationals who arrive in the LOS seeking work and a better life. They even towed a boat lacking any means of propulsion full of Burmese out into open waters and left them at the mercy of the elements a few years back.

 

No way would I patronise an Islamic nation because of the way they often treat women, homosexuals and non Muslims and even their fellow Muslims yet many on the left have no qualms nor hesitation when it comes to spending money in a country that must be an anathema to them, something that should be detested or shunned, a country that is so nationalistic that it accepts no immigrants at all. Run out of cash or fail to get the right visa and out you go even if you have sired a child with a Thai woman!

I don't agree with any of this post either....

 

My point was that Shaun pretends that he listens and responds to other posters, but actually ignores their valid points (one of which was a post of yours) and instead 'answers' a question that he has invented .

[Shawn0000]

6 minutes ago, LammyTS1 said:

 

You are profiling MOST British citizens, shameful that you tar most people with the same brush.

When I picked fruit & veg as a student, I never saw 1 migrant working alongside
me so why do we suddenly need them when we never before?

Minimum wage? Ha ha. Tell that to all the Indian restaurants and all the other employers who are raided each year and fined for employing illegal immigrants!


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

 

 

No, I didn't say most British people, I spoke of the unemployable, you are starting to make your self look silly now.

 

We have used migrants to pick fruit and veg for 500 years, it was the Irish for most of the time, but since 1945 we have used Eastern Europeans through the Seasonsal Agricultural Work Scheme. The recent increase of dependence on immigrant labour being caused by the growing scale of corporate retailers taking the profit margin away from the farmers, not as you imagine, through greater supply of labour.  If you do not like it then petition your MP regarding monopoly law within the food industry, immigration has exactly nothing to do with the issue.

 

You conflate issues, legal immigrants winning jobs and illegal immigrants working for below minimum wage are two separate issues.

[Shawn0000]

9 minutes ago, LammyTS1 said:

 

Genuine refugees? So perhaps 1% of the people currently in Greece & Serbia!

Yes I have humanity and will show that to the genuine 1%.

Fleeing war? Sorry I did not realise that Tunisia, Morocco & Egypt was at war?



Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

 

 

Perhaps you are completly wrong, do you really think people risk their lives crossing seas in overloaded boats because they have perfectly safe lives back home?

 

no, you do not have humanity as you assume 99% of them are liars, you are shameful.

 

Tunisians are regularly refused asylum, I have not heard of Moroccan asylum seekers, not sure how you missed the unrest in Egypt, there are plenty being persecuted there, but anyway, about half who arrive are coming straight from a war zone and the majority of the other half are fleeing slavery, your 1% nonsense is just a childlike dream.

 

[Shawn0000]

10 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I don't agree with any of this post either....

 

My point was that Shaun pretends that he listens and responds to other posters, but actually ignores their valid points (one of which was a post of yours) and instead 'answers' a question that he has invented .

 

Wow, pretty sure I just set you straight on that one, I responded to an erroneous point within their comment, no made up question, just a correction, probably best you stick to commenting on things you can understand.

[yogi100]

7 minutes ago, LammyTS1 said:

 

You are profiling MOST British citizens, shameful that you tar most people with the same brush.

When I picked fruit & veg as a student, I never saw 1 migrant working alongside
me so why do we suddenly need them when we never before?

Minimum wage? Ha ha. Tell that to all the Indian restaurants and all the other employers who are raided each year and fined for employing illegal immigrants!


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

 

 

When I was a kid loads of us London youngsters used to spend our summer holidays down in Kent fruit picking. The fruit and hop picking industry depended on seasonal casual labour and it was a great life.

 

Now a lot of it is automated and the hops are mostly picked by machines. But also the health and safety and child labour wallahs poked their noses in and put a stop to it and our wonderful summers down in the Kent countryside living in cabins earning what was a decent bit of cash for a youngster in those days came to an end.

 

The Eastern Europeans who do it now are probably not on much better money that we were. The hop pickers got good money compared to us.

[simple1]

6 minutes ago, LammyTS1 said:

 

Genuine refugees? So perhaps 1% of the people currently in Greece & Serbia!

Yes I have humanity and will show that to the genuine 1%.

Fleeing war? Sorry I did not realise that Tunisia, Morocco & Egypt was at war?

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

 

 

You & others keep posting known misinformation in breach of forum rules across all the asylum seeker topics.

 

Numerous reports in 2016  state around 40% of asylum seekers in the EU are vetted as genuine refugees. In 2015 the average across EU countries was around 50%, with 80% arriving in Greece expected to be positively vetted.

 

http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2015/09/economist-explains-4

 

In the last 4/5 pages of comments I don't believe any actually relate to the OP topic.

 

 

[yogi100]

17 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I don't agree with any of this post either....

 

My point was that Shaun pretends that he listens and responds to other posters, but actually ignores their valid points (one of which was a post of yours) and instead 'answers' a question that he has invented .

 

Well you may disagree but the fact is you can't become an immigrant in the LOS. And they do forcibly deport foreigners.

 

And I have never nor would I ever consider going to a Muslim country whether you agree with it or not. And for the last 14 years I have only ever traveled to the LOS with Thai, EVA or BA.

 

[dick dasterdly]

16 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

No, I didn't say most British people, I spoke of the unemployable, you are starting to make your self look silly now.

 

We have used migrants to pick fruit and veg for 500 years, it was the Irish for most of the time, but since 1945 we have used Eastern Europeans through the Seasonsal Agricultural Work Scheme. The recent increase of dependence on immigrant labour being caused by the growing scale of corporate retailers taking the profit margin away from the farmers, not as you imagine, through greater supply of labour.  If you do not like it then petition your MP regarding monopoly law within the food industry, immigration has exactly nothing to do with the issue.

 

You conflate issues, legal immigrants winning jobs and illegal immigrants working for below minimum wage are two separate issues.

Funnily enough my mum used to 'pick' fruit and veg. along with other neighbours when I was a child, and on weekends us children would join them to earn some money!

 

Not an immigrant to be seen at the time.

[dick dasterdly]

13 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

Wow, pretty sure I just set you straight on that one, I responded to an erroneous point within their comment, no made up question, just a correction, probably best you stick to commenting on things you can understand.

Again, OK .

[LammyTS1]

 
Perhaps you are completly wrong, do you really think people risk their lives crossing seas in overloaded boats because they have perfectly safe lives back home?
 
no, you do not have humanity as you assume 99% of them are liars, you are shameful.
 
Tunisians are regularly refused asylum, I have not heard of Moroccan asylum seekers, not sure how you missed the unrest in Egypt, there are plenty being persecuted there, but anyway, about half who arrive are coming straight from a war zone and the majority of the other half are fleeing slavery, your 1% nonsense is just a childlike dream.
 

Do you really believe they are leaving behind families & children in war torn countries? You must start to listen to truth rather than liberal media lies.

The people in Greece/Serbia are economic migrants who flee from no persecution. They are simply there to try and reach a country where most free hand outs can be found whilst also working illegally for unscrupulous employers.






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[dick dasterdly]

11 minutes ago, simple1 said:

 

You & others keep posting known misinformation in breach of forum rules across all the asylum seeker topics.

 

Numerous reports in 2016  state around 40% of asylum seekers in the EU are vetted as genuine refugees. In 2015 the average across EU countries was around 50%, with 80% arriving in Greece expected to be positively vetted.

 

http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2015/09/economist-explains-4

 

In the last 4/5 pages of comments I don't believe any actually relate to the OP topic.

 

 

Blame Shawn who insists on 'answering' questions that were never asked (reminds me of writing to companies with a complaint - they do the same thing....).

[Shawn0000]

7 minutes ago, LammyTS1 said:

 

Do you really believe they are leaving behind families & children in war torn countries? You must start to listen to truth rather than liberal media lies.

The people in Greece/Serbia are economic migrants who flee from no persecution. They are simply there to try and reach a country where most free hand outs can be found whilst also working illegally for unscrupulous employers.






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You are taken by tabloid lies, I have family in an area where they are passing through daily, no they are not leaving their families behind, most of them are women and children, and they are coming straight from conflict zones of Syria, not all of them though, and it is those that you illiberal rag has concentrated on, photographed and used rhetoric that gave  you the ludicrous impression that it is 99% who are not refugees.

[Shawn0000]

9 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Blame Shawn who insists on 'answering' questions that were never asked (reminds me of writing to companies with a complaint - they do the same thing....).

 

Get a grip on yourself, if you don't know the difference between correcting someone's point and answering a question then best not to embarrass yourself and just keep quiet.

[Shawn0000]

18 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Funnily enough my mum used to 'pick' fruit and veg. along with other neighbours when I was a child, and on weekends us children would join them to earn some money!

 

Not an immigrant to be seen at the time.

 

So what?  Oh, did you think your tiny little bit of circumstantial evidence counted for something?  I have explained to you why the number of immigrants have increased recently, clearly that, like most other things you comment on, went over your head.

[thai3]

Genuine refugees, or lying economic migrants it makes no difference, we don't want them. There is a limit and we have enough already.

[Morch]

On 1/13/2017 at 5:07 AM, simple1 said:

 

The ratio of children & causal reasons has been addressed a number of times on this forum by person/s very familiar with asylum seeker / refugee issues which are understandable and logical,, though of course repeatedly ignored by those who post in these topics; perhaps you personally have not read such content.

 

Yes I agree the EU had / has not put in sufficient policies / resources / funding to asylum seeker processing both within the EU and more to the point in places such as Turkey, though IMO this does not absolve Greek authorities from very poor management of the challenges and disbursement of EU funds.

 

Of course screening has to be properly managed, but given the asylum seeker issue has been ongoing for a few years now, together with plenty of warning about the potential for a crisis, again IMO overall very poorly funded, resourced and managed.

 

As I said in my post, there are factors and reasons which could address this ratio. The point I was trying to make is that regardless of such explanation, the public perception is essentially correct, even if based on an inaccurate assumptions. What many Europeans see, and what even more people watch on the media, are adults, mostly men and often young. Combine these images with a general less than favorable economic situation, cultural differences and fears of violence - and these explanations, even if correct, do not amount to much.

 

The same goes for all those definitions tossed around - "refugee", "migrant", "asylum seeker", "illegal immigrant", "economic migrant" and whatnot. The differences make sense for those interested in details, as far as the general public goes, the differences are less obvious - and further, hold less meaning as time goes by. Hence the point made with regard to the OP, which uses both "migrants" and "refugees". Bottom line, what people see, is a bunch of foreigners from alien cultures arriving at their countries. That some would feel threatened (in whichever way) by these events, is normal. Not saying that's quite how I see things, but I can get their point of view.

 

This exactly relates to the issues pertaining to EU handling (or rather, mishandling) of the crisis. It doesn't matter much if one wishes to portray the EU or specific member countries the main culprits. Seems like most responses can be characterized as either incompetent or populist (sometimes both). That doesn't help with prevalent public sentiment that things are out of control (again, without getting into a debate over the correctness of this perception).

 

IMO, what makes things worse are those on both political extremes exploiting the situation to further their views and goals.

[Morch]

On 1/13/2017 at 5:56 AM, simple1 said:

 

Firstly the correct definition is 'asylum seeker', after they have been positively vetted they are assigned 'refugee' status. In some EU countries e.g. France, the process can take up to two years during which they are not permitted to work. In the past few years of those claiming refugee status approx 40% are positively vetted. A large majority of those rejected are actually from Balkan countries or North Africa.

 

What happens to them approx 60% who fail to be positively vetted? How do these figures stack compared to those bypassing the vetting procedures?

[Morch]

On 1/13/2017 at 7:46 AM, Shawn0000 said:

 

We killed over 1 million people in the process, that kind of overshadows all the "good" we did by removing their "tyrants" who could not have caused so many deaths and so much suffering in a hundred of their lifetimes.

 

"We" didn't. That's just harping on a supposed collective guilt trip. Not everyone is buys into it or accepts being co-opted to this agenda.

[Morch]

On 1/13/2017 at 1:35 PM, Shawn0000 said:

 

Religions do not have opposites, what were you thinking there?  Neither do cultures, its not even that Syria was very different from Europe before the war, they were a liberal country, the people escaping want to live liberal lives.

 

And yes, all countries should take in people in these times of need, regardless of religion and culture, people are people.

 

I am not suggesting making them go anywhere, that would be you.

 

If you knew the first thing about Syria you would know that their social values are more close to ours than to Saudis, they are escaping ISIS who have much more in common with Saudi values than their own.

 

Anyway, your assumption that it would be disrespectful to expect people to socialise with people of differing religions and values is actually very disrespectful.

 

...its not even that Syria was very different from Europe before the war, they were a liberal country, the people escaping want to live liberal lives.

 

Syria was a liberal country. Right. Not very different from Europe. Right. Someone's engages in a "bit" of historical revisionism.

 

And yes, all countries should take in people in these times of need, regardless of religion and culture, people are people.

 

We should all leave peacefully and love each other also, so what? The "should" bit doesn't come into it, and the aren't such expectations applied to all countries. As an obvious example, you do not see Russia taking refugees in, even though it's heavily invested in increasing their numbers. Somehow, with certain types of political thought it's always "the West"'s fault and responsibility - whatever "it" is.

[Morch]

On 1/13/2017 at 1:57 PM, Shawn0000 said:

 

Clearly not many, 5 million odd refugees and just a few terrorist attacks so far.  But keep helping out ISIS if you want, the only reason they have sent those terrorists is to try to get us to take the attitude you are taking, myself I will not fall for that one and I will do nothing to help ISIS.

 

I daresay those effected by those attacks may see things differently, your expert opinion on ISIS goals notwithstanding.

[Morch]

22 hours ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

Perhaps you are completly wrong, do you really think people risk their lives crossing seas in overloaded boats because they have perfectly safe lives back home?

 

no, you do not have humanity as you assume 99% of them are liars, you are shameful.

 

Tunisians are regularly refused asylum, I have not heard of Moroccan asylum seekers, not sure how you missed the unrest in Egypt, there are plenty being persecuted there, but anyway, about half who arrive are coming straight from a war zone and the majority of the other half are fleeing slavery, your 1% nonsense is just a childlike dream.

 

 

Not all of these people arrive from war torn countries. That doesn't mean that their lives back home were perfectly safe. It's just that the provisions afforded are not intended for all kinds of adverse conditions, but to their extreme instances. Otherwise, things would get out of hand. And yes, people do go to extreme lengths to better their situation, and not always because their lives are directly threatened.

 

The "unrest" in Egypt is not, to the best of my knowledge, widely recognized as a humanitarian crisis. Considering this preamble and your previous nonsense, doubt that the rest of your take on the composition of arrivals holds much merit.

 

Also, the constant pontificating and moral grandstanding are, as ever, childish and ridiculous.

 

 

[Shawn0000]

39 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

"We" didn't. That's just harping on a supposed collective guilt trip. Not everyone is buys into it or accepts being co-opted to this agenda.

 

I was replying to Yogi who said "we" helped overthrow Saddam, if we are to collectively claim the good we did then we must also collectively accept responsibility for the bad we did.  If you are going to jump in at least try to keep pace.

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

I was replying to Yogi who said "we" helped overthrow Saddam, if we are to collectively claim the good we did then we must also collectively accept responsibility for the bad we did.  If you are going to jump in at least try to keep pace.

 

Yeah yeah...he started it.

 

[Shawn0000]

25 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Not all of these people arrive from war torn countries. That doesn't mean that their lives back home were perfectly safe. It's just that the provisions afforded are not intended for all kinds of adverse conditions, but to their extreme instances. Otherwise, things would get out of hand. And yes, people do go to extreme lengths to better their situation, and not always because their lives are directly threatened.

 

The "unrest" in Egypt is not, to the best of my knowledge, widely recognized as a humanitarian crisis. Considering this preamble and your previous nonsense, doubt that the rest of your take on the composition of arrivals holds much merit.

 

Also, the constant pontificating and moral grandstanding are, as ever, childish and ridiculous.

 

 

 

I am not the one claiming 99% of asylum seekers are not genuine despite over 40% of their claims being successful. I am neither the ridiculous one nor the childish one.

 

You write off all I say out of pure ignorance, last year a boat sank carrying 600 Egyptian refugees, 200 of them died, you are coming from nowhere with your humanitarian crisis remark, refugees are refugees regardless of how an outsider defines the countries situation as a whole.

[Shawn0000]

5 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Yeah yeah...he started it.

 

 

Just another example of your inability to keep pace, you don't even understand the simplistic concept of applying someone's logic against their own arguement. 

[simple1]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

What happens to them approx 60% who fail to be positively vetted? How do these figures stack compared to those bypassing the vetting procedures?

 

EU organisations such as Frontex publish statistics on those removed from the EU e.g. in 2015. Interesting to note the percentages from Balkan countries which have previously been referenced by the German government. 

 

the number of return decisions issued by the Member States (286 700) and the number of effective returns (175 200) remained relatively stable when compared to the previous year. Albanians accounted for 17% of all effective returns, trailed by Ukrainians (8.6%) and residents of Kosovo* (5.8%).

 

http://frontex.europa.eu/news/frontex-publishes-risk-analysis-for-2016-NQuBFv

 

 

It has been reported EU member countries are lacking sufficient legislation, process  & resources to effectively process applicants & remove those whose applications have been declined, though these issues are slowly being addressed. As an example, in France, it has been reported it currently takes up to two years to process applications. In the meantime those waiting for a decision are not permitted to work, creating even more resentment regards costs which is exploited by those to the 'right' of politics.

 

Don't know the stats on who are actually illegal migrants by bypassing the immigration processes, overstaying and so on. I do recall the number in the UK was/is in the hundreds of thousands. By way of comparison Oz has approx 57,000 illegals.

 

The above is off topic, so Mods please forgive in this instance

 

EDIT: With the massive influx during 2016 EU governments have been overwhelmed and I'm sure numbers will indicate huge challenges with removing 'illegals' as EU governments endeavour to put in place govt to govt agreements to ensure legal and managed returns of those declined

Edited January 14, 2017 by simple1

[Morch]

10 minutes ago, simple1 said:

 

EU organisations such as Frontex publish statistics on those removed from the EU e.g. in 2015. Interesting to note the percentages from Balkan countries which have previously been referenced by the German government. 

 

the number of return decisions issued by the Member States (286 700) and the number of effective returns (175 200) remained relatively stable when compared to the previous year. Albanians accounted for 17% of all effective returns, trailed by Ukrainians (8.6%) and residents of Kosovo* (5.8%).

 

http://frontex.europa.eu/news/frontex-publishes-risk-analysis-for-2016-NQuBFv

 

 

It has been reported EU member countries are lacking sufficient legislation, process  & resources to effectively process applicants & remove those whose applications have been declined, though these issues are slowly being addressed. As an example, in France, it has been reported it currently takes up to two years to process applications. In the meantime those waiting for a decision are not permitted to work, creating even more resentment regards costs which is exploited by those to the 'right' of politics.

 

I think that in general, Europeans have less issues with letting people from Eastern Europe, Ukraine and the Balkans, compared to those arriving from the Middle East and Africa - and it is them that get most of the unfavorable attitude and/or media coverage. Again, this is not an opinion about the right or wrong of it.

 

The quote provided is preceded by "The number of asylum applications in 2015 rose to an unprecedented level of 1.35 million, according to EASO. However,....". Kinda puts things in a different light there. Also, the return figures (decision and effective) pertain only to countries bordering with the EU. Must be somewhat easier to decline and enforce. It would have been more to the point to bring up figures relating to arrivals from the ME and Africa.

 

Another figure from the link you provided tell of over 1.8 million illegal border crossings in 2014 alone. Many of them happening after arrival (legally or not) in the EU.

 

It is hardly just the "right" of politics which exploits matters, as we can see on these ongoing topics. Those of the left persuasion often paint anyone and everyone not on board with their views as a closet fascist,  racist and all the rest ists. Then there's the co-opting of the population to go along with the policies. I don't think there would have been that much resistance if things were managed at a more reasonable pace. People need time to adjust to changes, calling them names and shoving these changes down their throats regardless of their views ain't gonna make them receptive.

[simple1]

9 hours ago, Morch said:

 

I think that in general, Europeans have less issues with letting people from Eastern Europe, Ukraine and the Balkans, compared to those arriving from the Middle East and Africa - and it is them that get most of the unfavorable attitude and/or media coverage. Again, this is not an opinion about the right or wrong of it.

 

The quote provided is preceded by "The number of asylum applications in 2015 rose to an unprecedented level of 1.35 million, according to EASO. However,....". Kinda puts things in a different light there. Also, the return figures (decision and effective) pertain only to countries bordering with the EU. Must be somewhat easier to decline and enforce. It would have been more to the point to bring up figures relating to arrivals from the ME and Africa.

 

Another figure from the link you provided tell of over 1.8 million illegal border crossings in 2014 alone. Many of them happening after arrival (legally or not) in the EU.

 

It is hardly just the "right" of politics which exploits matters, as we can see on these ongoing topics. Those of the left persuasion often paint anyone and everyone not on board with their views as a closet fascist,  racist and all the rest ists. Then there's the co-opting of the population to go along with the policies. I don't think there would have been that much resistance if things were managed at a more reasonable pace. People need time to adjust to changes, calling them names and shoving these changes down their throats regardless of their views ain't gonna make them receptive.

 

Well we differ in opinion as one of the major challenges for the EU is the volume of economic migrants (claiming asylum seekers status) into the EU who originate from the Balkans, is often referenced as an ongoing major problem in the EU. With regards to those of the 'right'. personally I consider their politics far more dangerous to the future stability of the EU than other political groups, as has been called out by a number of Western security agencies.

 

You could have easily located other stats on asylum seekers, such as originating countries, but never mind I have provided another example of official info below.

 

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Asylum_statistics

 

Of course a better managed inflow of asylum seekers would have contributed to a possibly better acceptance rate, there again as demonstrated on this forum over the years many just simply loath Muslims in general. Merkel made a strategic error with her 'invitation', but there are also numerous  other factors contributing to the current mess.

Edited January 14, 2017 by simple1