Thailand’s corruption ranking drops from 76th to 101st in 2016 CPI

[Lung Mike]

From my personal experience, living and working here for almost 18 years, the corruption is definitely worse than a few years ago. The required under-the-table payments have more than doubled since the military took over. The corrupt officials must be scared to get caught, but instead of stopping their corrupt activities, they simply up the price. The police harassement of foreign businesses has also increased.

[rkidlad]

13 minutes ago, IMA_FARANG said:

I spent 5 years in South Vietnam during the war, and that government was far more corrupt than anything I have ever seen here in Thailand.

And I just looked at a hedge - what's your point?

[robblok]

5 minutes ago, smutcakes said:

I am sure you would be so understanding if the ranking had fallen under a PTP Government....

Not really, why would I corruption is hard to measure and I live in this country I prefer to look at the court cases processed laws amended to punish corruption.

 

Tell me what laws did the PTP amend to fight corruption better ? 

Tell me what big corruption cases were prosecuted in PTP time.. 

Do you remember that the amnesty would also be fore many corruption cases (good thing it was shot down)

 

Would you not say that people living in a country have a far better view of what is going on then some outside organisation. I can still remember the twisted facts the US used against our Dutch drug policies. 

 

[jayboy]

17 minutes ago, robblok said:

1)..I would see the bank loans forced by Thaksin that now has bankers in jail, Sondi case, case against the credit union theft that the monk is involved too, many others but not going to look through all news articles, fake GTG deals where high ranking members of the previous government were implicated with hard proof. Seems quite a bit but you will say political motivated.. as usual.

 

2) GT200 devices is old news and was not even pursued under other government at the time so cant make a difference in the rating as how it was handled is the same as previously (and a big shame as I agree something should be done about it)

 

3) People perceive democratie as the best and will always give bad marks if a government is not democratic as proven by saying that independent monitors (from other countries) should be there at the referendum, while none were in the US during election and that seems to be ok.. double standards.

 

3) as i said.. big part political game.. they don't like governments that are non democratic as it goes against their views

 

4) Agree here freedom of speech is less at this moment and declined. But given how much progress in cases has been made in 1 while goverment of YL was busy with corruption on whosale scale see fake GTG deals and an amnesty (thankfully stopped by the people) of 30.000 cases including many corruption cases i would say it would have to rate better as then. 

1.What major corruption cases have been pursued that were without some political motivation or unspoken agenda? None.

 

2.GT200 may be old news but members of Junta closely involved.Also other instances of military corruption and unexplained wealth.Nothing pursued.Key case will be upcoming Rolls Royce investigation since armed forces closely connected with Thai Air.

 

3.You seem confused.Transparency International (TI) certainly prefers open and democratic systems because corruption can be more easily monitored and prevented.It's not an ideological matter.

 

4.It's not really possible to argue that "now" is better than "then".TI - and there's no more respected arbiter - considers matters have deteriorated markedly.

 

 

[robblok]

5 minutes ago, jayboy said:

1.What major corruption cases have been pursued that were without some political motivation or unspoken agenda? None.

 

2.GT200 may be old news but members of Junta closely involved.Also other instances of military corruption and unexplained wealth.Nothing pursued.Key case will be upcoming Rolls Royce investigation since armed forces closely connected with Thai Air.

 

3.You seem confused.Transparency International (TI) certainly prefers open and democratic systems because corruption can be more easily monitored and prevented.It's not an ideological matter.

 

4.It's not really possible to argue that "now" is better than "then".TI - and there's no more respected arbiter - considers matters have deteriorated markedly.

 

 

Disagree completely... You call it all political.. I don't

 

Now turn the tables..

 

what has the PTP done... I have graced you with answers now you tell me what the PTP did what laws did they tighten up against corruption and what cases did they pursue.

Also tell me why the amnesty included corruption cases

 

I would say it has gotten better.. you prove me wrong with your answers please.. I replied now you do the same. 

[brucec64]

3 minutes ago, robblok said:

Disagree completely... You call it all political.. I don't

 

Now turn the tables..

 

what has the PTP done... I have graced you with answers now you tell me what the PTP did what laws did they tighten up against corruption and what cases did they pursue.

Also tell me why the amnesty included corruption cases

 

I would say it has gotten better.. you prove me wrong with your answers please.. I replied now you do the same. 

 

Here are the data sources for the Transparency International Corruption Perceptions Index 2016:

 

World Bank CPIA

World Economic Forum EOS

Global Insight Country Risk Ratings

Bertelsmann Foundation Transformation Index

African Development Bank CPIA

IMD World Competitiveness Yearbook

Bertelsmann Foundation Sustainable Governance Index

World Justice Project Rule of Law Index

PRS International Country Risk Guide

Varities of Democracy Project

Economist Intelligence Unit Country Ratings

Freedom House Nations in Transit Ratings

PERC Asia Risk Guide

Here are the data sources for the Robblok Corruption Index:

 

Robblok's feelings

 

Both make a good case...

[mtls2005]

Corruption is institutionalized at the highest levels here, via state-granted monopolies and to select individuals. It's been that way since the 1950's.

 

With the good people setting the standard it's really not hard to envision an entire society/country, from top-top bottom inured to corruption, including the military, clergy, police, civil service, education.

 

I think the ruling class's/Junta's definition of corruption only applies to common folks treading on their franchise. If they do it it's simple their right via sakdina.

[Enoon]

45 minutes ago, robblok said:

1)..I would see the bank loans forced by Thaksin that now has bankers in jail, Sondi case, case against the credit union theft that the monk is involved too, many others but not going to look through all news articles, fake GTG deals where high ranking members of the previous government were implicated with hard proof. Seems quite a bit but you will say political motivated.. as usual.

 

2) GT200 devices is old news and was not even pursued under other government at the time so cant make a difference in the rating as how it was handled is the same as previously (and a big shame as I agree something should be done about it)

 

3) People perceive democratie as the best and will always give bad marks if a government is not democratic as proven by saying that independent monitors (from other countries) should be there at the referendum, while none were in the US during election and that seems to be ok.. double standards.

 

3) as i said.. big part political game.. they don't like governments that are non democratic as it goes against their views

 

4) Agree here freedom of speech is less at this moment and declined. But given how much progress in cases has been made in 1 while goverment of YL was busy with corruption on whosale scale see fake GTG deals and an amnesty (thankfully stopped by the people) of 30.000 cases including many corruption cases i would say it would have to rate better as then. 

 

Not liking governments that are non-democratic is an indictment?

 

Thanks for making it 100% clear where you're coming from, and confirming the futility of any attempt to negotiate with you.

 

PS This government is more than "non",  it's ANTI.

 

 

Edited January 26, 2017 by Enoon

[jayboy]

11 minutes ago, robblok said:

Disagree completely... You call it all political.. I don't

 

Now turn the tables..

 

what has the PTP done... I have graced you with answers now you tell me what the PTP did what laws did they tighten up against corruption and what cases did they pursue.

Also tell me why the amnesty included corruption cases

 

I would say it has gotten better.. you prove me wrong with your answers please.. I replied now you do the same. 

Actually you haven't answered any of my questions.I make no claims for the PTP government so your attempt to deflect is irrelevant.The chief excuse for the military coup was to end corruption.Yet according to independent sources the position has deteriorated sharply.You make assertions based on what you "feel" and are unwilling or unable to respond to questioning.That's why - as you can see - you aren't being taken seriously.

[Enoon]

49 minutes ago, IMA_FARANG said:

I spent 5 years in South Vietnam during the war, and that government was far more corrupt than anything I have ever seen here in Thailand.

 

There is a lot of focus on the WAR.

 

The socio/political situation in Vietnam at that time is given far too little attention.

 

Change the names of one or two "interest groups", take away the urbanisation, and Thailand starts to look very similar.

 

But It will be "different" in Thailand.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Prbkk]

Hardly surprising when those at or very near the top seek to explain nepotism/cronyism with "but everyone does it" and answer questions about sources of wealth with "..don't ask me about that". Hardly reassuring.

[CGW]

1 hour ago, IMA_FARANG said:

I spent 5 years in South Vietnam during the war, and that government was far more corrupt than anything I have ever seen here in Thailand.

That was over 40 years ago!

 

40 years ago corruption in Thailand was probably on par? or very close! certainly in the past 30 years corruption is nowhere near as blatant as it used to be, but as long as it is deemed 'acceptable" it will remain.

What do I mean by "acceptable"? if people have money in Thailand they are looked up to! regardless of where their so called wealth came from!

[Jimbo2014]

Another HUB?.... 

[Morakot]

2 hours ago, backstairs said:

Protestant work ethics seem to be the winners.

Of course they made that ranking scale in the first place.

 

Those countries with public organization that can successfully move corruption into the private sector are the winners of this particular contest.

 

Some background reading to the biggest corruption fuelled by some fine work "ethics".

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34324772

Edited January 26, 2017 by Morakot

[smutcakes]

2 minutes ago, CGW said:

That was over 40 years ago!

 

40 years ago corruption in Thailand was probably on par? or very close! certainly in the past 30 years corruption is nowhere near as blatant as it used to be, but as long as it is deemed 'acceptable" it will remain.

What do I mean by "acceptable"? if people have money in Thailand they are looked up to! regardless of where their so called wealth came from!

For all the talk of corruption now, i shudder to think at how much used to be siphoned off at every level of every budget, purchase, contract prior to the internet and when no one questioned anything. Probably makes the last 20 years look like small change. No wonder people are so keen to keep the status quo, there is a lot to lose.

[xylophone]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

Fun to see that the least corrupt countries are all in Europe

Apart from New Zealand which ranks joint no.1 on the world index...........that's why I have so much trouble in "adjusting" to the widespread and blatant corruption here.

 

It sticks out like "racing dogs goolies" as the saying goes and the people in power just get wealthier...it stinks to high heaven.

[TheFishman1]

Corruption from the Top down everyone has there hand in the cookie jar TIT

[Essaybloke]

2 hours ago, aussieinthailand said:

Well well well, how in wonderful world of Disney will the junta hug___rs,,, Opps, I can' say that today as there is one or two people here that are just a little bit presious and get all bent out of shape when that turm is used or even ju__a fan club, they don't like that one also, Opp's, hehehehe.

Ok, ok, my bad,  So how will the few people here that just love the junta and think they are the duck's nutt's come out and spin this drop in corruption regarding the so-called self procliamed hero of the nation fighting corruption as long as you don't mention himself, his brother, sister inlaw, nephew, or any other close connections and or there bank accounts with the millitary's money in it,,,. Ummm my guess is what they useually say will be,    "it's been distorted, inaccurate, unfair, and bias, unballanced, properganda, Thaksin loving, he must have paid them, gossip, red shirt retohric"???

I like the 'it's been taken out of context' excuse.   And hey man, you should get yourself a spell and grammar checker for happy new year. 

[SOUTHERNSTAR]

5 hours ago, HiSoLowSoNoSo said:

Worse than Indonesia!!! Wonder how they will spin this?

Easy the dear great leader already said this rating is due to past corruption (before he came to power). What absolute @#$^% and an out right lie. SOMEONE MUST EXPLAIN TO HIM THAT THIS SURVEY IS DONE ANNUALY AND THE DOWNGRADE WAS NOT DUE TO PAST CORRUPTION BUT PRESENT.

[Bluespunk]

5 hours ago, webfact said:

The military junta also prohibited monitoring of the referendum. There is a clear absence of independent oversight and righteous debate.

Gotta love that righteous debate...

[Bluespunk]

1 hour ago, IMA_FARANG said:

I spent 5 years in South Vietnam during the war, and that government was far more corrupt than anything I have ever seen here in Thailand.

Probably why they lost... 

[SOUTHERNSTAR]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

I said fun to see..  about the Europe US thing.. fun to see.. do you call that eager.. and after that I said i don't trust this ranking (goes for the Europe Us thing too)

 

Tell me how can an organisation get a clear picture of all the countries in the world and be accurate..........

 

You can't even get an accurate view of road casualties all over the world because of different types of measuring and nobody is hiding that. Now corruption is hidden and they can get an accurate view of the whole world.....

They have representatives in countries and or regions which are specialists in those countries or regions and compile reports which get incorporated in the world wide report. They aren't the only one that is seeing increased corruption. http://government.defenceindex.org/countries/thailand/. Lets go through just a few corruption cases:

1. Appointment of family and friends by NLA members.

2. The B 680 million UNEXPLAINED assets of the PM and his brother wealth.

3. The appointment of the PM's son into a position.

4. Corruption park in HH and the unexplained death of a man that knew too much.

5. The human trafficking in the south that netted only one army officer while hundreds or even thousands must have at least known about it. Reminder one of the slave camps was 200 m from an army camp and slaves was transported pass army check points.

6. Running the country without any civilian oversight of the army budget and spending. After tearing up the 2007 constitution they got carte blanche in this regard.

7. Since 2015 the country have been run without a published budget. There are no internal or external audits published since the coup.

8. The allocation of oil and gas blocks.

9. The approval of mega projects and the approval of contractors without any oversight or transparency.

10. The purchase of the submarines and tanks. The normal procedure is transparent and subject to oversight.

11. Salary increases of civil servants at 3 times the inflation rate.

12. The replacement of civil servants that did nothing wrong. They contravened the labour laws of the country to enable them to put their people into positions of power. If you remember YS was taken to court due to a similar mistake she made. This was used to lift her from power but today that's not possible as such action could be fatal.

13. The unaudited rice stocks. Thailand had about 16 million tonnes of rice in stock. At no stage did this government order an internal (auditor generals office) or external audit of these stocks. They used soldiers to count the stocks and decide on the grade. This opened the system to corruption as good rice has been downgraded and then sold at higher than the official stock price but lower than the market price. Nice scheme which must have netted people billions. The difference between the official price and the selling price was the tea money.

 

May I also add that after the last coup there was an significant increase in corruption because they are untouchable and they know they are untouchable and that is the environment in which corruption thrive.

 

 

 

[LannaGuy]

11 minutes ago, SOUTHERNSTAR said:

They have representatives in countries and or regions which are specialists in those countries or regions and compile reports which get incorporated in the world wide report. They aren't the only one that is seeing increased corruption. http://government.defenceindex.org/countries/thailand/. Lets go through just a few corruption cases:

1. Appointment of family and friends by NLA members.

2. The B 680 million UNEXPLAINED assets of the PM and his brother wealth.

3. The appointment of the PM's son into a position.

4. Corruption park in HH and the unexplained death of a man that knew too much.

5. The human trafficking in the south that netted only one army officer while hundreds or even thousands must have at least known about it. Reminder one of the slave camps was 200 m from an army camp and slaves was transported pass army check points.

6. Running the country without any civilian oversight of the army budget and spending. After tearing up the 2007 constitution they got carte blanche in this regard.

7. Since 2015 the country have been run without a published budget. There are no internal or external audits published since the coup.

8. The allocation of oil and gas blocks.

9. The approval of mega projects and the approval of contractors without any oversight or transparency.

10. The purchase of the submarines and tanks. The normal procedure is transparent and subject to oversight.

11. Salary increases of civil servants at 3 times the inflation rate.

12. The replacement of civil servants that did nothing wrong. They contravened the labour laws of the country to enable them to put their people into positions of power. If you remember YS was taken to court due to a similar mistake she made. This was used to lift her from power but today that's not possible as such action could be fatal.

13. The unaudited rice stocks. Thailand had about 16 million tonnes of rice in stock. At no stage did this government order an internal (auditor generals office) or external audit of these stocks. They used soldiers to count the stocks and decide on the grade. This opened the system to corruption as good rice has been downgraded and then sold at higher than the official stock price but lower than the market price. Nice scheme which must have netted people billions. The difference between the official price and the selling price was the tea money.

 

May I also add that after the last coup there was an significant increase in corruption because they are untouchable and they know they are untouchable and that is the environment in which corruption thrive.

 

 

 

good list and it grows longer...  but there are none so blind as they who will not see

[Jai Dee]

Several flame and troll posts have been removed from this thread.

 

Please discuss the subject, not other members.

[gamini]

3 hours ago, smutcakes said:

For anyone with even an inkling of knowledge about Thailand, this should come as absolutely no surprise.

 

Would you trust the Thai Police Force to Govern the country? so why expect anything different from the army.

 

It is the army that is unearthing all the corruption which was swept under the carpet by previous governments. As they find more and more corruption, obviously, the country's corruption index changes.

[Andrew65]

3 hours ago, robblok said:

Fun to see that the least corrupt countries are all in Europe and that the US as a world leader is not doing a good job corruption wise. Though i do not trust this ranking 100% because i fail to see how they can gather good data from all over the world. For instance in Thailand they say just because the goverment did not let independent organisations monitor the referendum it was deemed corrupt.. I fail to see it that way because most countries don't let foreign entities check their elections plus its only a hint at corruption not proof at all. So I do have some questions on how they get and value their data. 

In other news:

 

IMF chief Christine Legarde was found guilty of involvement in corruption involving 400 million Euros whilst French Finance Minister. Penalty: Zilch.

 

Rolls Royce executives involved in paying inducements to Thailand and others to purchase their jet engines. Penalty: Zilch.

 

Wells Fargo bilking their customers by setting up fake/un-needed accounts, then charging fees for said accounts. Penalty so far: Zilch

[smutcakes]

19 minutes ago, gamini said:

It is the army that is unearthing all the corruption which was swept under the carpet by previous governments. As they find more and more corruption, obviously, the country's corruption index changes.

On a serious note, can you give me a couple of examples of cases of corruption the military has unearthed? Surely unearthing corruption would have the opposite affect on this index?

[robblok]

misspost because of slow internet.

Edited January 26, 2017 by robblok

[soalbundy]

well never mind, the government is like TAT, they have their very own statistics.

[elgordo38]

3 hours ago, robblok said:

Fun to see that the least corrupt countries are all in Europe and that the US as a world leader is not doing a good job corruption wise. Though i do not trust this ranking 100% because i fail to see how they can gather good data from all over the world. For instance in Thailand they say just because the goverment did not let independent organisations monitor the referendum it was deemed corrupt.. I fail to see it that way because most countries don't let foreign entities check their elections plus its only a hint at corruption not proof at all. So I do have some questions on how they get and value their data. 

The new term alternate truths will become alternate corruption problem solved.