Harveyboy Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 Basically asked it all in the title ..some time ago I asked the best eay to protect an investment in a property ..given good advice Userfruct so how easy ..how expensive been told already safest way thanks for any info.you might share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackcab Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 Would the person granting you the Usufruct be your wife? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henryford Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 What good is a usufruct when the "brother" moves in, changes the locks and throws your stuff out on the lawn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taninthai Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 My usufruct cost me 4500 bht which is a bit overpriced ,however the land office did not want to set the usufruct up on the same day we payed for the land they said it raises suspicions higher up about proxy ownership.....I was leaving the country 1 week later so signed POA to a few other people and the usufruct was done and issued 1 month later while I was out the country......i did have to provide a few bits of paperwork to satisfy them it is not proxy ownership...........mine usufruct is from the ex wife...lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destiny1990 Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 You can have a life long usefruct from your thai wife but if your marriage ends then the usufruct agreement could be terminated as what i can recall of previous posts but i not completely sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackcab Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 26 minutes ago, Destiny1990 said: You can have a life long usefruct from your thai wife but if your marriage ends then the usufruct agreement could be terminated as what i can recall of previous posts but i not completely sure. It cannot be terminated by an ex-wife just because she wants to, but it could be terminated by the Court as part of the division of assets during divorce proceedings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Srikcir Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 23 minutes ago, Destiny1990 said: You can have a life long usefruct from your thai wife but if your marriage ends then the usufruct agreement could be terminated as what i can recall of previous posts but i not completely sure. http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/897904-usufruct-in-the-case-of-divorce/ See posts #4 and #5 See also https://translate.google.co.th/translate?hl=en&sl=th&u=http://www.thaicontracts.com/articles/8-thai-law-isn-t-simple/31-usufruct-in-thai-property-law.html&prev=search Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackcab Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 3 hours ago, Srikcir said: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/897904-usufruct-in-the-case-of-divorce/ See posts #4 and #5 Since I made that post I have followed up with a few land offices to get clarification. A Usufruct is a real property right and is not classed as an Agreement or a Contract. This is why it cannot be cancelled by the Usufructor, even if that is your ex-wife. It's the same situation as if you purchased a condo from your wife then a few months later you divorced. Your ex-wife can't go to the land office and ask them to reverse the sale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOUTHERNSTAR Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 If your wife is the owner of the property and you want certainty about future use, but at your death the property will go to your wife, then use Usufruct. If you want to pass this property on to someone else you must use a 30 lease. Remember under Usufruct you cant let someone inherit that right, but with a lease you can. The danger with Usufruct is that if your marriage go down the tube you can become a target for a hating ex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khunPer Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Major problem with Usufruct is that you may be worth more dead, than alive. Furthermore, contracts between husband and wife can be declared void. However, a Usufruct is very simple to establish and register, and can money-wise be done next-to-nothing, if you do the paperwork yourself. Remember to check Superficies as an option, as not many details are mentioned in Opening Post. You can read more in details about your various possibilities at "Samui for Sale". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
louse1953 Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 9 hours ago, Henryford said: What good is a usufruct when the "brother" moves in, changes the locks and throws your stuff out on the lawn. Easy peasy.Buy a bigger cop and locksmith,and your lawyer.Next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
louse1953 Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Mine was next to free,just money for a stamp or 2.Funny,they aked if i wanted more land as gf didn't trust herself when it come to family pressure.I ended up with a few more rai than i originally went in to get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
louse1953 Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 2 hours ago, Destiny1990 said: You can have a life long usefruct from your thai wife but if your marriage ends then the usufruct agreement could be terminated as what i can recall of previous posts but i not completely sure. Wrong,not sure you can do a usufruct with women after she is your wife.Never mind that,usufruct goes with your life,not your wife.or 30 years.Your wife or who ever gets willed the land,but you have the usufruct on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
louse1953 Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 14 minutes ago, khunPer said: Major problem with Usufruct is that you may be worth more dead, than alive. Furthermore, contracts between husband and wife can be declared void. However, a Usufruct is very simple to establish and register, and can money-wise be done next-to-nothing, if you do the paperwork yourself. Remember to check Superficies as an option, as not many details are mentioned in Opening Post. You can read more in details about your various possibilities at "Samui for Sale". That is one reason why not to marry in Thailand.God knows why men do it.Village marriage ok,no probs with that,but no bloody signature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackcab Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 1 hour ago, SOUTHERNSTAR said: Remember under Usufruct you cant let someone inherit that right, but with a lease you can. I'm sorry but in Thailand that is incorrect. If the lessee dies, their lease cannot be inherited or passed on to anyone else unless the lessor consents. This is because a lease is a contract agreement and not a real property right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEVUP Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 A Usufrut doesn't protect your investment at all As the word says USEfrut - So you take the first phrase Use the property for 30 yrs & the law states you can improve but not degrade the property So as another post stated whats the point 1- Foreigners cant own property (has to be handed to Thai within 1 yr) 2. The person who owns the Chanote still has total control regarding the Sale or Mortaging at any time (So what if your name is on the Chanote as a Usufrut) they will find a way to remove you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destiny1990 Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 3 hours ago, louse1953 said: Wrong,not sure you can do a usufruct with women after she is your wife.Never mind that,usufruct goes with your life,not your wife.or 30 years.Your wife or who ever gets willed the land,but you have the usufruct on it. Ehmmm do I understand it correctly that i should not fruct my wife while i am married?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jippytum Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 usufrunct is a good secure legal way to protect your investment regarding a joint investment with a Thai partner.You probably have a concern hence your inquiry.The cost is reasonable to ensure your absolute protection and peace of mind . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Srikcir Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 15 hours ago, louse1953 said: Wrong,not sure you can do a usufruct with women after she is your wife.Never mind that,usufruct goes with your life,not your wife.or 30 years.Your wife or who ever gets willed the land,but you have the usufruct on it. The duration of a usufruct made after marriage is questionable. http://www.thaicontracts.com/ask/view/17-can-i-do-a-usufruct-contract-with-my-thai-wife.html "the law gives in section 1469 of the Civil and Commercial Code both spouses the right to void any agreement concluded between them during marriage (without grounds). This means for example that a right of usufruct given by one spouse to the other during the marriage can be voided and cancelled." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackcab Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 3 minutes ago, Srikcir said: The duration of a usufruct made after marriage is questionable. http://www.thaicontracts.com/ask/view/17-can-i-do-a-usufruct-contract-with-my-thai-wife.html "the law gives in section 1469 of the Civil and Commercial Code both spouses the right to void any agreement concluded between them during marriage (without grounds). This means for example that a right of usufruct given by one spouse to the other during the marriage can be voided and cancelled." A Usufruct is a real property right and is not classed as an Agreement or a Contract. This is why it cannot be cancelled by the Usufructor, even if that is your ex-wife. It's the same situation as if you purchased a condo from your wife then a few months later you divorced. Your ex-wife can't go to the land office and ask them to reverse the sale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornishcarlos Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 My reason for a Usufruct is to protect my right to use the land should my wife pass away before me. Without it, the family could try to take the land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOLDBUGGY Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 IMHO, a Userfruct is the best and safest way to go which I also feels gives you the greatest protect and the best property rights in Thailand. No doubt in my mind! It is easy to do and not expensive either. I went to a Lawyer before I purchased the property and with a copy of the Land Title Certificate and explained what I wanted. She drew up the Legal Papers, and in a few days we went back to sign them. Then took them to the Land Office when we made the purchase of the property. If I recall this cost me about 8,500 Baht for the Lawyer, but besides the house and land it sat on, my Userfruct also included a lot of land. Which I also have total use of and in which all had to be documented. If you are purchasing this land with your wife, at the Land Office they will advice you that you cannot have true ownership of this land, and it will belong to you wife. But they will take your Userfruct Contract at this time to. They will first transfer this land to your wife, and once that is done that they will add your Userfruct to the Land Title. So now she can't sell or mortgage this property without your consent. That takes about 3 weeks, or so. A Userfruct will entitle you to full use of this house and land, to do with what you see fit for the rest of your life. You can even sublease it and rent it out if you so choose. Some people will quote you Thai Civil Laws and try to scare you out of this, in which says a contract between a husband and wife is not legal binding. Of course it isn't. It isn't anywhere else in the world either. Even Prenuptial Agreements are not legally binding either. The courts will look at them, but they can decide whatever they want to. So in Thailand Divorce Laws, which fall under Civil Law, will supersede any agreement you made with your wife during your marriage. But this may not be a bad thing at all. Maybe that you are going through a Divorce with your wife, you don't want to live there anymore and would rather sell this property and split the money. Thai Divorce Law states that a husband and wife share the property they acquired during their marriage 50/50. So if you can't make some kind of deal with your x-wife to stay there, then at least the property has to be sold and you get 50% of that. Maybe not great if you paid for everything yourself, but no divorce anywhere is great, and where the man walks away with everything. So I see this as better than nothing. In the mean time nobody can legally kick you out of their. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOLDBUGGY Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 1 hour ago, cornishcarlos said: My reason for a Usufruct is to protect my right to use the land should my wife pass away before me. Without it, the family could try to take the land. Yeah! You raised a very good point that I forgot about. That the Usufruct is as good and as long as you live, and not how long the owner lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOLDBUGGY Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 1 hour ago, blackcab said: A Usufruct is a real property right and is not classed as an Agreement or a Contract. This is why it cannot be cancelled by the Usufructor, even if that is your ex-wife. It's the same situation as if you purchased a condo from your wife then a few months later you divorced. Your ex-wife can't go to the land office and ask them to reverse the sale. I totally agree with you in that an x-wife can not just go down and cancel your Userfruct at the Land Office. Nor can she sell this property or put a lean on it like a Mortgage. She needs you to agree to cancel this before she can do any of this. But you also have to realize that Divorce Law supersedes any agreement you make with your wife during the marriage. Which could include this Court forcing the sale of this property and splitting this money 50/50. It could also include you staying there the rest of your life to. In my opinion, you are probably safer in doing this with an x-wife if you totally trust her, than the wife you live with now. But then if you have a good and long relationship with your wife you have nothing to worry about. So a Userfruct is pretty good insurance, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destiny1990 Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 Personnally i would prefer a 99 years lease for the landplot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacker Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 Five years ago, when I gave money for some land in central Thailand, the land office refused to give me this protection because I was not Thai. They insisted that the only people that can use it, were Thai people. So, of course we are in the same situation as with all immigration offices interpreting the law differently. Just another layer of fun to navigate thru. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harveyboy Posted March 12, 2017 Author Share Posted March 12, 2017 On 10/03/2017 at 11:56 PM, blackcab said: Would the person granting you the Usufruct be your wife? Yes it would be my wife Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harveyboy Posted March 12, 2017 Author Share Posted March 12, 2017 2 hours ago, bushwacker said: Five years ago, when I gave money for some land in central Thailand, the land office refused to give me this protection because I was not Thai. They insisted that the only people that can use it, were Thai people. So, of course we are in the same situation as with all immigration offices interpreting the law differently. Just another layer of fun to navigate thru. Yes I know mate tks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornishcarlos Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 7 hours ago, Destiny1990 said: Personnally i would prefer a 99 years lease for the landplot. Which you can't get, so pointless comment in this thread ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destiny1990 Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 17 minutes ago, cornishcarlos said: Which you can't get, so pointless comment in this thread ! Yeah i wonder when they will modernize their real estate laws instead of offering us sigars from our own box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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