Putting userfruct on property how expensive ..how safe

[tutsiwarrior]

10 hours ago, cornishcarlos said:

My reason for a Usufruct is to protect my right to use the land should my wife pass away before me.

Without it, the family could try to take the land.

 

 

yeah...my reason also...and if the wife dies whoever inherits can't sell without my consent...usufructs are simply a way of being able to control the property that you live on while yer alive...no one presumes that a foreigner has any ownership rights...

 

a lot of land office people see it differently and they know where they can go with their xenophobic BS...the local office tried to pull some shit on my wife when she went to register the usufruct (I was away) and the lawyer that I had engaged (who was present) got in their face and they backed off...money well spent on the legal assistance...

 

 

Edited March 12, 2017 by tutsiwarrior

[BEVUP]

21 hours ago, cornishcarlos said:

My reason for a Usufruct is to protect my right to use the land should my wife pass away before me.

Without it, the family could try to take the land.

 

& yes they can but inheretence laws state it will go to you first but being a foreigner you will have to give it to a Thai after 1 year  IE: your child hopefully

[cornishcarlos]

1 minute ago, BEVUP said:

& yes they can but inheretence laws state it will go to you first but being a foreigner you will have to give it to a Thai after 1 year  IE: your child hopefully

 

I would give it to one of my relatives but with the Usufruct on the chanote, I would be able to continue living there until I die....

[BEVUP]

19 hours ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

IMHO, a Userfruct is the best and safest way to go which I also feels gives you the greatest protect and the best property rights in Thailand. No doubt in my mind!

 

It is easy to do and not expensive either. I went to a Lawyer before I purchased the property and with a copy of the Land Title Certificate and explained what I wanted. She drew up the Legal Papers, and in a few days we went back to sign them. Then took them to the Land Office when we made the purchase of the property. If I recall this cost me about 8,500 Baht for the Lawyer, but besides the house and land it sat on, my Userfruct also included a lot of land. Which I also have total use of and in which all had to be documented.

 

If you are purchasing this land with your wife, at the Land Office they will advice you that you cannot have true ownership of this land, and it will belong to you wife. But they will take your Userfruct Contract at this time to. They will first transfer this land to your wife, and once that is done that they will add your Userfruct to the Land Title. So now she can't sell or mortgage this property without your consent. That takes about 3 weeks, or so.

 

A Userfruct will entitle you to full use of this house and land, to do with what you see fit for the rest of your life. You can even sublease it and rent it out if you so choose.

 

Some people will quote you Thai Civil Laws and try to scare you out of this, in which says a contract between a husband and wife is not legal binding. Of course it isn't. It isn't anywhere else in the world either. Even Prenuptial Agreements are not legally binding either. The courts will look at them, but they can decide whatever they want to.

 

So in Thailand Divorce Laws, which fall under Civil Law, will supersede any agreement you made with your wife during your marriage. But this may not be a bad thing at all. Maybe that you are going through a Divorce with your wife, you don't want to live there anymore and would rather sell this property and split the money.  

 

Thai Divorce Law states that a husband and wife share the property they acquired during their marriage 50/50. So if you can't make some kind of deal with your x-wife to stay there, then at least the property has to be sold and you get 50% of that. Maybe not great if you paid for everything yourself, but no divorce anywhere is great, and where the man walks away with everything. So I see this as better than nothing. In the mean time nobody can legally kick you out of their.

Absolute rubbish about unable to sell or mortgage - You may want to read Thai law

[BEVUP]

7 minutes ago, cornishcarlos said:

 

I would give it to one of my relatives but with the Usufruct on the chanote, I would be able to continue living there until I die....

I would presume within 30 yrs as Usufruts only last that long & hope the family don't need money from a loan shark ( it has happened even with a Usufrut )

[cornishcarlos]

6 minutes ago, BEVUP said:

I would presume within 30 yrs as Usufruts only last that long & hope the family don't need money from a loan shark ( it has happened even with a Usufrut )

 

Usufruct is for life if that is what you put on the chanote...

[cornishcarlos]

Property can be sold but Usufruct remains valid so not many people would be interested in buying.

[GOLDBUGGY]

2 hours ago, BEVUP said:

Absolute rubbish about unable to sell or mortgage - You may want to read Thai law

You may want to use some Common Sense before you read Thai Law.

 

Which Bank do you know who would give you a Mortgage on your Property knowing ahead of time they have no way to collect on it if you default? That they can't take back this property and sell it as they can't kick you out of there as you have a Userfruct for life and are registered at the Land Office as so?

 

Who would buy this Property for exactly the same reasons? Sure "Technically" it is possible and as pointed out by many here already this Property can change hands, on the death of the owner for example, but change of ownership doesn't change the Userfruct. So "Technically" it is possible, but in "Reality" it isn't.   

 

It is also possible your Thai Wife could bump you off to get this property back to sell or mortgage, which would be easier than going to the bank. But again I highly doubt that every Thai Woman is a Natural Born Killer. But I met a few Farangs who treated their wife like garbage, and probably deserved it though, 

[GOLDBUGGY]

3 hours ago, BEVUP said:

I would presume within 30 yrs as Usufruts only last that long & hope the family don't need money from a loan shark ( it has happened even with a Usufrut )

You are confused with this and a lease. A Lease can last a maximum of 30 years, renewal uncertain yet, but a Usurfruct can and does last for life, if this is what you want.

 

Of course there is all possibilities when dealing with anything. But you tend to always go to the most unlikely event. My wife going to a Loan Shark for money, knowing she has a Usurfruct with me, is almost unimaginable for me, as I am sure it is with many others here. The Guy was just looking for some good advice about a Usurfruct, and not some dreamt up story on your part.

 

But as your story goes she then doesn't pay back this loan and thus loses the property to the Loan Shark. But if they did get this land transferred to them, they still can't kick you out of your house.

 

Although I admit if this one in a million chance did happen, I am not sure I would want to stay there anymore. Better chance of getting bumped off then, I would think.

 

But even if I left they still legally can't sell it without the new owner knowing I can move back any time soon. I am not a Loan Shark, but if I were I think I would find a better property to pick on.

[tutsiwarrior]

On 3/13/2017 at 8:03 AM, cornishcarlos said:

Property can be sold but Usufruct remains valid so not many people would be interested in buying.

 

yeah...I stand corrected, whoever inherits can sell but there won't be many buyers when they see the usufruct on the chanote...

[ableguy]

On 3/11/2017 at 3:30 PM, Destiny1990 said:

You can have a life long usefruct from your thai wife but if your marriage ends then the usufruct agreement could be terminated as what i can recall of previous posts but i not completely sure.

This is not true, I have a usafruct with my gf of seven years, it is for life, even if she dies and leaves the house to her family.

the best way to handle this is for your partner to make a will leaving the property to you.

you then by law must sell the property within one year.

i bought a new house my lawyer did the usafruct at the land office the same day that the builder transferred the house to me.

[ableguy]

On 3/13/2017 at 11:10 AM, GOLDBUGGY said:

You are confused with this and a lease. A Lease can last a maximum of 30 years, renewal uncertain yet, but a Usurfruct can and does last for life, if this is what you want.

 

Of course there is all possibilities when dealing with anything. But you tend to always go to the most unlikely event. My wife going to a Loan Shark for money, knowing she has a Usurfruct with me, is almost unimaginable for me, as I am sure it is with many others here. The Guy was just looking for some good advice about a Usurfruct, and not some dreamt up story on your part.

 

But as your story goes she then doesn't pay back this loan and thus loses the property to the Loan Shark. But if they did get this land transferred to them, they still can't kick you out of your house.

 

Although I admit if this one in a million chance did happen, I am not sure I would want to stay there anymore. Better chance of getting bumped off then, I would think.

 

But even if I left they still legally can't sell it without the new owner knowing I can move back any time soon. I am not a Loan Shark, but if I were I think I would find a better property to pick on.

I agree with this, however if you took out a thirty year lease your wife or gf could legally borrow from a bank she then cannot or will not repay the loan so the bank re possesses the house, as they now own the house you do not have a thirty year lease with them and you are out, according to my lawyer.

[KittenKong]

On 11/03/2017 at 9:08 AM, Henryford said:

What good is a usufruct when the "brother" moves in, changes the locks and throws your stuff out on the lawn.

 

I think the brother is more likely to keep your stuff.

 

But I wonder what good is a usufruct even if the brother doesnt move in? Why bother upholding the right to live somewhere where none of the neighbours (who are probably all extended family) want you there? That sounds like a recipe for disaster in Thailand.

 

 

On 12/03/2017 at 0:31 PM, Destiny1990 said:

Personnally i would prefer a 99 years lease for the landplot.

 

Yes, as far as I'm concerned there are only two ways to buy property: freehold or on a lease that is significantly longer than both my lifespan and that of my (eventual) children. Anything less is not worth considering. I certainly would never consider Thai 30-year leases at the sort of prices they are generally offered at here.

[GOLDBUGGY]

8 minutes ago, ableguy said:

I agree with this, however if you took out a thirty year lease your wife or gf could legally borrow from a bank she then cannot or will not repay the loan so the bank re possesses the house, as they now own the house you do not have a thirty year lease with them and you are out, according to my lawyer.

I am sorry but I see you are still confused about a 30 Year Lease and a Usurfruct. They are not the same thing. A Usurfruct can be, and usually is, for the life of the person acquiring one. This also gives him full property usage, as the name implies, therefore in most case he can sub-lease this property to somebody else. This Usurfruct ends only upon his death (or in some case divorce). That is important to understand that!

 

Unlike renting a Condo, or Lease one for a year, a Usurfruct is a legal document which is registered at the Land Office and attached to that property. Just like a Mortgage is. In order to get a Usurfruct in the first place, the person offering this to you has to be in a position to do so. So if their is already a huge mortgage attached to this property, or the person offering this property doesn't own it, then the Land Office will not issue you a Usurfruct. Plain and simple!

 

Banks also have access to the Land Office Documents. They are not just going to take somebodies word they own a property, or have no liens on it. They will do a full Title Search before they will issue any money for a mortgage. Of this I am sure. Another thing I am sure of is a bank won't mortgage a property they can't legally take back and sell to recoup their losses.  

 

Is it possible for someone to sign a 30 Year Lease with some Landlord, then not register this at the Land Office, only to find out later that this same Landlord took out a huge mortgage on this property as no lien showed up on the Land Title? Then have the bank take back this property as he refused to pay and they kicked you out n the street? I suppose it is! But who's fault is that?

 

But is it possible that when you have a legal and registered Usurfruct at the Land Office, and a bank decides to give the Land Owner a Huge Mortgage, which he later refuses to pay back, and they take this property away from him, then kick you out on the street? No Way! It is because you have a Usurfruct that no bank in there right mind would knowingly give that person a mortgage. Unless of course he had other collateral to back that up. What would be the point of the Government and Land Office even having a Usurfruct, if anyone can come along and sell the property, or mortgage it, and then kick you out on the street?  

 

The only exception to this is in Civil Court under the Divorce Act, if it is your wife who owns this property, and all gloves are off.  But also under this law a divorced couple share everything and this property 50/50. Maybe not the best or what you wanted, but it never is when you go through a divorce and it is better than nothing.   

[GOLDBUGGY]

On ‎3‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 9:08 AM, Henryford said:

What good is a usufruct when the "brother" moves in, changes the locks and throws your stuff out on the lawn.

Sounds to me that your troubles are more with the Family than it is with a Usurfruct.

 

You obviously need a place to live and roof over your head. Is it better with the brother when you just rent somebody else's place then?

 

Why?

[GOLDBUGGY]

On ‎3‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 4:42 PM, blackcab said:

 

Since I made that post I have followed up with a few land offices to get clarification.

 

A Usufruct is a real property right and is not classed as an Agreement or a Contract. This is why it cannot be cancelled by the Usufructor, even if that is your ex-wife.

 

It's the same situation as if you purchased a condo from your wife then a few months later you divorced. Your ex-wife can't go to the land office and ask them to reverse the sale.

Yes! Good Research! "Property Right"! That was the word I was looking for!

 

The Usurfruct is a property right and for as long as you live. To "Usu" the "fruct" way you want to.

[GOLDBUGGY]

On ‎3‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 5:39 PM, SOUTHERNSTAR said:

If your wife is the owner of the property and you want certainty about future use, but at your death the property will go to your wife, then use Usufruct. If you want to pass this property on to someone else you must use a 30 lease. Remember under Usufruct you cant let someone inherit that right, but with a lease you can. The danger with Usufruct is that if your marriage go down the tube you can become a target for a hating ex.

Never heard of a Lease that could be passed down to an inherent. The only Lease Contract I have seen was between the Leasee and the Leasor? Never saw a spot where I could add my daughters name on a car lease or rental lease? But if you say so...

 

If you are concerned and want to pass this Usurfruct to you son for example, then why not make him the Usufruct to begin with and you sub-lease from him for as long as you live. Or get a 30 Year Sub-Lease from him and on your passing he would take over the Usurfruct. You can sub-lease on a Usurfruct. At least I can on mine.  

[GOLDBUGGY]

On ‎3‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 6:27 PM, louse1953 said:

Wrong,not sure you can do a usufruct with women after she is your wife.Never mind that,usufruct goes with your life,not your wife.or 30 years.Your wife or who ever gets willed the land,but you have the usufruct on it.

I got a Usurfruct from my Thai Wife not that long ago,

 

Why would you think you can't? As long as she is Thai and can own a property there is no problem at all.

[GOLDBUGGY]

On ‎3‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 6:15 PM, khunPer said:

Major problem with Usufruct is that you may be worth more dead, than alive. Furthermore, contracts between husband and wife can be declared void. However, a Usufruct is very simple to establish and register, and can money-wise be done next-to-nothing, if you do the paperwork yourself.

Remember to check Superficies as an option, as not many details are  mentioned in Opening Post.

You can read more in details about your various possibilities at "Samui for Sale".

That is also a major problem buying Life Insurance. So did that stop you from buying any in your lifetime?

[GOLDBUGGY]

On ‎3‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 10:08 AM, Srikcir said:

The duration of a usufruct made after marriage is questionable.

http://www.thaicontracts.com/ask/view/17-can-i-do-a-usufruct-contract-with-my-thai-wife.html

"the law gives in section 1469 of the Civil and Commercial Code both spouses the right to void any agreement concluded between them during marriage (without grounds). This means for example that a right of usufruct given by one spouse to the other during the marriage can be voided and cancelled."

And since they were obviously married when they made this agreement and bought this property, they now have to sell this property and split this profit 50/50. Does that sound worst to you?

 

Then who gets the new truck and kids? A Divorce is always messy and financially costly. Especially to Men! So if you don't feel secure in your marriage you should buy anything,. But that sure is one hell of a way to live.

[GOLDBUGGY]

On ‎3‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 0:31 PM, bushwacker said:

Five years ago, when I gave money for some land in central Thailand, the land office refused to give me this protection because I was not Thai.  They insisted that the only people that can use it, were Thai people.  So, of course we are in the same situation as with all immigration offices interpreting the law differently.  Just another layer of fun to navigate thru.

Some land is protect in Thailand and like most other places. Owning Forestry Land in Canada is reserved for Canadians or Canadian Companies. This is probably protected in Thailand to. What type of land did you try to buy, may help.

[cornishcarlos]

4 hours ago, KittenKong said:

 

I think the brother is more likely to keep your stuff.

 

But I wonder what good is a usufruct even if the brother doesnt move in? Why bother upholding the right to live somewhere where none of the neighbours (who are probably all extended family) want you there? That sounds like a recipe for disaster in Thailand.

 

 

 

Yes, as far as I'm concerned there are only two ways to buy property: freehold or on a lease that is significantly longer than both my lifespan and that of my (eventual) children. Anything less is not worth considering. I certainly would never consider Thai 30-year leases at the sort of prices they are generally offered at here.

 

My wife only has 2 sisters, so the brother problem is sorted.

The plot of land is nowhere near the family so the neighbour problem is sorted.

So I think upholding the right to use a property if my wife dies is very important. 

[agudbuk]

I have been told if you inherit land from your wife or another relative in Thailand and that you are not Thai then you have a limited period of time in which to sell 

[khunPer]

6 hours ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

That is also a major problem buying Life Insurance. So did that stop you from buying any in your lifetime?

Yes...

[khunPer]

1 hour ago, agudbuk said:

I have been told if you inherit land from your wife or another relative in Thailand and that you are not Thai then you have a limited period of time in which to sell 

That's true, 6 month or 12 month...

[ableguy]

13 hours ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

I am sorry but I see you are still confused about a 30 Year Lease and a Usurfruct. They are not the same thing. A Usurfruct can be, and usually is, for the life of the person acquiring one. This also gives him full property usage, as the name implies, therefore in most case he can sub-lease this property to somebody else. This Usurfruct ends only upon his death (or in some case divorce). That is important to understand that!

 

Unlike renting a Condo, or Lease one for a year, a Usurfruct is a legal document which is registered at the Land Office and attached to that property. Just like a Mortgage is. In order to get a Usurfruct in the first place, the person offering this to you has to be in a position to do so. So if their is already a huge mortgage attached to this property, or the person offering this property doesn't own it, then the Land Office will not issue you a Usurfruct. Plain and simple!

 

Banks also have access to the Land Office Documents. They are not just going to take somebodies word they own a property, or have no liens on it. They will do a full Title Search before they will issue any money for a mortgage. Of this I am sure. Another thing I am sure of is a bank won't mortgage a property they can't legally take back and sell to recoup their losses.  

 

Is it possible for someone to sign a 30 Year Lease with some Landlord, then not register this at the Land Office, only to find out later that this same Landlord took out a huge mortgage on this property as no lien showed up on the Land Title? Then have the bank take back this property as he refused to pay and they kicked you out n the street? I suppose it is! But who's fault is that?

 

But is it possible that when you have a legal and registered Usurfruct at the Land Office, and a bank decides to give the Land Owner a Huge Mortgage, which he later refuses to pay back, and they take this property away from him, then kick you out on the street? No Way! It is because you have a Usurfruct that no bank in there right mind would knowingly give that person a mortgage. Unless of course he had other collateral to back that up. What would be the point of the Government and Land Office even having a Usurfruct, if anyone can come along and sell the property, or mortgage it, and then kick you out on the street?  

 

The only exception to this is in Civil Court under the Divorce Act, if it is your wife who owns this property, and all gloves are off.  But also under this law a divorced couple share everything and this property 50/50. Maybe not the best or what you wanted, but it never is when you go through a divorce and it is better than nothing.   

It is you that does not understand me, I stated for e.g. , I bought a house  for cash got a usafruct as the house is in my gf name I can stay for life period, had I bought the house put it in her name as I must, and taken a thirty year lease from her she could borrow from the bank against the value of the house, does not pay it back , the bank repossesses I am out. Simply as I stated.

[GOLDBUGGY]

11 hours ago, ableguy said:

It is you that does not understand me, I stated for e.g. , I bought a house  for cash got a usafruct as the house is in my gf name I can stay for life period, had I bought the house put it in her name as I must, and taken a thirty year lease from her she could borrow from the bank against the value of the house, does not pay it back , the bank repossesses I am out. Simply as I stated.

Well I looked into a Usurfruct and not a 30 Year lease, so I am not sure how that works. But I do think that many here who have a 30 Year Lease would disagree with you.

 

I do know that a 30 Year Lease can be registered at the Land Office, but not sure how much weight that carries. Again I don't see the point of letting you Register that Lease if it carried no weight at all. That anyone can just sell this property under you feet. So I do find it very hard to believe what you are saying about that 30 Year Lease. Sorry! But it just doesn't make sense to me.

[BEVUP]

On 3/19/2017 at 10:44 AM, GOLDBUGGY said:

Well I looked into a Usurfruct and not a 30 Year lease, so I am not sure how that works. But I do think that many here who have a 30 Year Lease would disagree with you.

 

I do know that a 30 Year Lease can be registered at the Land Office, but not sure how much weight that carries. Again I don't see the point of letting you Register that Lease if it carried no weight at all. That anyone can just sell this property under you feet. So I do find it very hard to believe what you are saying about that 30 Year Lease. Sorry! But it just doesn't make sense to me.

Easy

It's a Lease/Usu not a land title 

Now maybe they can break a Lease on the resale of the property where as there may be a new contract that needs to be put in place 

But A Usu is not actually a money paying contract & goes along with the sale so I can't see how the new owner can kick you out

I know of a block of land that has a Usu on it & was signed over to a Loan shark which was defaulted on but could not resell as a prospective buyer did their home work. Then the Shark tried to sell it back to the original owner for some ludicrous amount