Hawaii judge halts Trump's new travel ban before it can go into effect

[ilostmypassword]

10 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Perhaps, but existing law and precedents on this particular question are already well established. The executive branch has authority over immigration.

Apparently not as well established as you think. Otherwise, why wouldn't the administration have appealed Trump's original executive order all the way to the Supreme Court?

[Credo]

15 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Perhaps, but existing law and precedents on this particular question are already well established. The executive branch has authority over immigration.

Yes, but there is that pesky little Constitution that gets in the way of all kinds of things that The Donald wants to do.   

 

It is a commentary on his lack of skills that he cannot even write an Executive Order or implement a policy in the area of which he has brought discretionary powers.   

 

On this one, he gets a fail.   

[Peterw42]

14 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Perhaps, but existing law and precedents on this particular question are already well established. The executive branch has authority over immigration.

Yes I agree, but in this instance the executive branch is introducing parameters not in the original legislation, a travel ban dependent on country of origin. Thats the judiciaries job, to interpret and enforce the existing legislation.

Legislation is usually long winded and written to cover lots of senarios, future developments etc, but if its not in the legislation, an executive order cant add it.

[Andaman Al]

3 hours ago, Grubster said:

I think Trump should begin to build some very large housing projects in Hawaii, then send all these immigrants there, problem solved.

 

3 hours ago, Linzz said:

Indeed it is a bit like all the Hollywood celebrities behind their mansion walls and gated communities. Plenty of outrage but will they open their doors?

 

3 hours ago, Grubster said:

No but they will open yours.

It is called the NIMBY effect, go ahead and do it just Not In My Back Yard. I guess just like the two of you want to do with the rest of the world. Let Europe and Australia etc etc pick up all the mess from the US invasion of foreign sovereign territories but don't let them come to the USA. Nice people over there.

 

I think this photo sums it up your attitudes quite nicely. Go, do whatever you want and then leave someone else to clean your crap up.

 

 

 

 

 

[Andaman Al]

33 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Using your logic any military operation with casualties is a failure? WWII using your logic was a complete failure and we should have let Germany take over Europe and left Asia to the Japanese so we would not take any casualties. People die during war (news flash) hopefully more of the other guys than our own. US Navy Seals are professional warriors, every one of them is a volunteer, and they know the risks of going into combat. 

A complete BS post and reply. The mission went wrong, that is a fact stated by the military commanders involved. Did I use the word failure? Nope you did. In your post you use the word 'logic' yet seem bereft of the ability to use it. The FACT is the Commander in Chief forgot the old saying "The buck stops here", instead after giving the order to conduct the operation, he blamed the Generals. THAT is a disgrace, and THAT is something unacceptable to the service men and women that serve their country. Trump expects people to give their lives, but he can't even accept responsibility from the warmth and comfort of his office. Try reading my post and applying a little comprehension, rational and 'logic' instead of shooting back from the hip with a ridiculous reply with ridiculous analogies.

[ilostmypassword]

1 minute ago, Andaman Al said:

A complete BS post and reply. The mission went wrong, that is a fact stated by the military commanders involved. Did I use the word failure? Nope you did. In your post you use the word 'logic' yet seem bereft of the ability to use it. The FACT is the Commander in Chief forgot the old saying "The buck stops here", instead after giving the order to conduct the operation, he blamed the Generals. THAT is a disgrace, and THAT is something unacceptable to the service men and women that serve their country. Trump expects people to give their lives, but he can't even accept responsibility from the warmth and comfort of his office. Try reading my post and applying a little comprehension, rational and 'logic' instead of shooting back from the hip with a ridiculous reply with ridiculous analogies.

He also blamed Obama.

[Ahab]

47 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Apparently not as well established as you think. Otherwise, why wouldn't the administration have appealed Trump's original executive order all the way to the Supreme Court?

Because the Supreme Court is currently one judge short and if tied the lower court ruling would stand. The lower court 9th circuit) is however overturned on appeal about 85% of the time (even the most liberal Supreme Court justices frequently rule against those idiots). 

 

Also so they may have lost on more narrow issues of immigration law regarding current Visa holders from those countries.

[Ahab]

32 minutes ago, Andaman Al said:

A complete BS post and reply. The mission went wrong, that is a fact stated by the military commanders involved. Did I use the word failure? Nope you did. In your post you use the word 'logic' yet seem bereft of the ability to use it. The FACT is the Commander in Chief forgot the old saying "The buck stops here", instead after giving the order to conduct the operation, he blamed the Generals. THAT is a disgrace, and THAT is something unacceptable to the service men and women that serve their country. Trump expects people to give their lives, but he can't even accept responsibility from the warmth and comfort of his office. Try reading my post and applying a little comprehension, rational and 'logic' instead of shooting back from the hip with a ridiculous reply with ridiculous analogies.

Something going wrong could also imply failure, my point was that a single KIA incurred during the storming of a terrorist enclave is something that may occur during those types of military operations. Casualties are part of military operations and that was my point.

[redwinecheese]

Trump is clearly violating the U.S constitution but it is not something to be wondering about because George W Bush said the constitution is just a Goddamn piece of paper

[stevenl]

There are millions of US citizens living below the poverty level, if we can't take care of them then why should we bring others to the mix?

And this is connected to security how?

sent using Tapatalk

[Srikcir]

5 minutes ago, redwinecheese said:

George W Bush said the constitution is just a Goddamn piece of paper

Unsubstantiated statement at best.

At worse a lie. There’s no record of Bush ever using these words in public and no other news organization has reported him using them privately.

http://www.factcheck.org/2007/12/bush-the-constitution-a-goddamned-piece-of-paper/

But as fake news has the same credibility as Trump's pronouncements.

 

[Linzz]

2 hours ago, Andaman Al said:

 

 

It is called the NIMBY effect, go ahead and do it just Not In My Back Yard. I guess just like the two of you want to do with the rest of the world. Let Europe and Australia etc etc pick up all the mess from the US invasion of foreign sovereign territories but don't let them come to the USA. Nice people over there.

 

I think this photo sums it up your attitudes quite nicely. Go, do whatever you want and then leave someone else to clean your crap up.

 

 

 

 

 

Take it easy. Not sure how you arrive at your conclusion when I spoke about the NIMBY effect in Hollywood despite the fact they are busy acting out hypercritical outrage. I agree that the US (and the UK) has largely caused a humanitarian crisis in countries like Yemen by supplying $ billions in arms to SA a sad legacy of the previous administration which I hope will now change but probably will be disappointed. Also I never said I agreed with the travel ban although I will not call it a muslim ban since muslims are admitted into the US every day from Europe and other countries.Extreme vetting is enough. However judges are again ruling politically based on what Trump said as a candidate  rather than what is worded in the document. They can't rule by their opinion of intent.

[Grubster]

3 hours ago, Andaman Al said:

 

 

It is called the NIMBY effect, go ahead and do it just Not In My Back Yard. I guess just like the two of you want to do with the rest of the world. Let Europe and Australia etc etc pick up all the mess from the US invasion of foreign sovereign territories but don't let them come to the USA. Nice people over there.

 

I think this photo sums it up your attitudes quite nicely. Go, do whatever you want and then leave someone else to clean your crap up.

 

 

 

 

 

No I think we should allow them to come and they should be very happy living amongst those who really want them, Hawaii, Hollywood, Manhattan, etc. Build housing for them there, whats wrong with that. These people in this camp do not have jobs, but sure can't seem to find a way to pick up the trash. No I would rather they do not move in next to me. Thank you

[redwinecheese]

20 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

Unsubstantiated statement at best.

At worse a lie. There’s no record of Bush ever using these words in public and no other news organization has reported him using them privately.

http://www.factcheck.org/2007/12/bush-the-constitution-a-goddamned-piece-of-paper/

But as fake news has the same credibility as Trump's pronouncements.

 

Unless you think Patriot Act is legitimate and does not violate the constitution! 

up to you

[Grubster]

42 minutes ago, stevenl said:

And this is connected to security how?

sent using Tapatalk
 

Its not, it is one of the reasons I don't want any immigrants, security is another. My grandparents were allowed to move to the US because the US wanted and needed immigrants not because Sweden was in bad shape, which it was.

[Godolphin]

5 hours ago, jesimps said:

POTUS is becoming redundant. May as well hand all the decision making to the lefty judges. Of course unlike the president, they won't bear any of the responsibility when things go wrong.

The lunatics seem to be running the asylum in the US. Dunno why they bothered with the vote. Bit like what GM and the Lords are doing in the UK.

Like taking responsibility for accusing the previous President of wire-tapping, taking responsibility for throwing airports into chaos with a hastily-thought-out order, taking responsibility for bizarre and inaccurate remarks about Sweden, for a vague and contradictory health care plan, for soft-peddling on obvious Russian interference in the election?

 

These "lefty" judges may actually believe in constitutional integrity, rule of law and not presidential whim.

 

It is as easy to label opposition to the President as "lefty" as it is to label his supporters as blind, ignorant simpletons. Once the labels get applied the real discourse gets thrown out and all you have is prejudice parading as argument.

[Andaman Al]

4 hours ago, Ahab said:

Something going wrong could also imply failure, my point was that a single KIA incurred during the storming of a terrorist enclave is something that may occur during those types of military operations. Casualties are part of military operations and that was my point.

And my point is the buck stops with the guy that ordered the mission - ALWAYS! You don't pass it down the chain when you are Commander in Chief. Leadership and Command 101.

[Andaman Al]

2 hours ago, Grubster said:

No I think we should allow them to come and they should be very happy living amongst those who really want them, Hawaii, Hollywood, Manhattan, etc. Build housing for them there, whats wrong with that. These people in this camp do not have jobs, but sure can't seem to find a way to pick up the trash. No I would rather they do not move in next to me. Thank you

It is not a camp - that is the whole point, read carefully. This is the aftermath of a music concert, everybody happy to go in and trash the place and expect others to clean up the crap - aka USA attitude towards Middle Eastern refugees. You started this crap and now want everyone except yourselves to be responsible for the cleaning up, take some responsibility.

[Grubster]

3 minutes ago, Andaman Al said:

It is not a camp - that is the whole point, read carefully. This is the aftermath of a music concert, everybody happy to go in and trash the place and expect others to clean up the crap - aka USA attitude towards Middle Eastern refugees. You started this crap and now want everyone except yourselves to be responsible for the cleaning up, take some responsibility.

Cleaning up after a concert is part of your ticket price. The US may have stirred the pot after 911, but saying we started this is a stretch of your imagination, I would prefer that the west stayed out of it completely and let the chips fall where they may.  I think we should have nuked Afghanistan and then apologized to the world while warning that any country knowingly harboring terrorists that are training to strike the US will suffer the same fate.

[joecoolfrog]

10 hours ago, Grubster said:

There are millions of US citizens living below the poverty level, if we can't take care of them then why should we bring others to the mix?

 

10 hours ago, Grubster said:

There are millions of US citizens living below the poverty level, if we can't take care of them then why should we bring others to the mix?

Considering that Trump doesn't give a damn about either set of 'peasants' , your point is moot.

[joecoolfrog]

9 hours ago, jesimps said:

POTUS is becoming redundant. May as well hand all the decision making to the lefty judges. Of course unlike the president, they won't bear any of the responsibility when things go wrong.

The lunatics seem to be running the asylum in the US. Dunno why they bothered with the vote. Bit like what GM and the Lords are doing in the UK.

You jest of course , the idea of Trump ever accepting responsibility would be highly amusing if it were not so pathetic.

[darksidedog]

14 hours ago, Ahab said:

Except for the fact that by law this is a specified duty of the executive branch. Using your logic, decisions to use military force by the President and congress could be stopped by the court action in a single state because one of its citizens would be inconvenienced or have difficulty getting a Visa for a family member. That is not how the separation of powers between branches of the US government is supposed to work. This will be overturned on appeal.

More chance of getting a blowjob from the pope.

[joecoolfrog]

50 minutes ago, Grubster said:

Cleaning up after a concert is part of your ticket price. The US may have stirred the pot after 911, but saying we started this is a stretch of your imagination, I would prefer that the west stayed out of it completely and let the chips fall where they may.  I think we should have nuked Afghanistan and then apologized to the world while warning that any country knowingly harboring terrorists that are training to strike the US will suffer the same fate.

You do realise that the US has supported and armed terrorists across the world. It was the arming of the Mujhardeen ( against the Russians) that gave such a boost to Islamic fundamentalism. 

I am pragmatic , politics is a dirty game , very few governments are innocent but some are far more hypocritical than others.

There are plenty of US citizens who have commited terrorist attacks ( in Central and South America , Asia , Africa ) or have aided and funded terrorism. By your logic Washington should be nuked , correct ?

Edited March 16, 2017 by joecoolfrog

[Grubster]

29 minutes ago, joecoolfrog said:

 

Considering that Trump doesn't give a damn about either set of 'peasants' , your point is moot.

We don't know that yet, I am speaking for the ones who do want to better themselves, there are those who never want to get off the dole and are very happy living at the lower end of living standards, those I don't care about either. My point is why I don't think immigration should be widely allowed when we don't have good jobs for our own citizens who want to move up a little.

[Grubster]

12 minutes ago, joecoolfrog said:

You do realise that the US has supported and armed terrorists across the world. It was the arming of the Mujhardeen ( against the Russians) that gave such a boost to Islamic fundamentalism. 

I am pragmatic , politics is a dirty game , very few governments are innocent but some are far more hypocritical than others.

There are plenty of US citizens who have commited terrorist attacks ( in Central and South America , Asia , Africa ) or have aided and funded terrorism. By your logic Washington should be nuked , correct ?

I agree that the US has done some bad stuff, and I think we should just get out of world problems until or unless they come to us. Its kind of like getting in the middle of a domestic quarrel, no good can come of it.  This is about immigration, and I don't think we need any immigrants at this time, sorry check back with us later.

[joecoolfrog]

19 minutes ago, Grubster said:

We don't know that yet, I am speaking for the ones who do want to better themselves, there are those who never want to get off the dole and are very happy living at the lower end of living standards, those I don't care about either. My point is why I don't think immigration should be widely allowed when we don't have good jobs for our own citizens who want to move up a little.

I understand what you are saying but it doesn't add up , I think you have just swallowed the hype without thinking it through. How many immigrants walk into high paid jobs that are desirable to US citizens ?  The answer is very few , and those that do are highly qualified , thats why they got the job !

[joecoolfrog]

17 minutes ago, Grubster said:

I agree that the US has done some bad stuff, and I think we should just get out of world problems until or unless they come to us. Its kind of like getting in the middle of a domestic quarrel, no good can come of it.  This is about immigration, and I don't think we need any immigrants at this time, sorry check back with us later.

Fair enough but my beef is with the nonsense you wrote about nuking Afghanistan or any other country that abets terrorism. Do you now accept that you were being ridiculous , given that you have recognised that the US( along with half the rest of the world ) also qualifies for your big bang ?

[beechguy]

40 minutes ago, joecoolfrog said:

You do realise that the US has supported and armed terrorists across the world. It was the arming of the Mujhardeen ( against the Russians) that gave such a boost to Islamic fundamentalism. 

I am pragmatic , politics is a dirty game , very few governments are innocent but some are far more hypocritical than others.

There are plenty of US citizens who have commited terrorist attacks ( in Central and South America , Asia , Africa ) or have aided and funded terrorism. By your logic Washington should be nuked , correct ?

On the other hand, which side of the border would you want to live in, North or South Korea? or the Berlin Wall in the 50's into the 80's?

[Grubster]

8 minutes ago, joecoolfrog said:

I understand what you are saying but it doesn't add up , I think you have just swallowed the hype without thinking it through. How many immigrants walk into high paid jobs that are desirable to US citizens ?  The answer is very few , and those that do are highly qualified , thats why they got the job !

You are very wrong on that, many immigrants come to take high tech jobs as they will work for much less. Others like the Mexicans took the roll of union busting in factories and construction sites across the US. Oh yes our excuse was that our own workers want to much money, and are too lazy to work for $8 an hour. With the higher education we have in the US we don't need these "highly qualified" workers from other countries.

[Grubster]

14 minutes ago, joecoolfrog said:

Fair enough but my beef is with the nonsense you wrote about nuking Afghanistan or any other country that abets terrorism. Do you now accept that you were being ridiculous , given that you have recognised that the US( along with half the rest of the world ) also qualifies for your big bang ?

No I still think we should have, it would have ended the whole mess I believe. I also highly supported the use of nukes in Japan rather than sacrificing 100,000 american troops to beat them in a conventional way. Sorry thats my stance and I think there would be a lot less dead today had we done it. Just don't elect me president and you should have no worries as the military machine is the primary reason we have these wars anyway, remaking one nuke just wouldn't get it with them. There will be wars and terrorists till the end of mankind no matter what you and I think.