Can a farang do home remodeling on GF house w/o work visa?

[FritsSikkink]

3 hours ago, canuckamuck said:

The law and it's interpretation is purposefully vague. The intent of the law is to keep westerners from taking jobs from Thais, but It doesn't specifically say you can't, for instance paint your bedroom. However if you got the attention of the wrong person, you could be out for doing just that.

 

That being said, flipping houses is an interesting idea. Thais don't like to buy used houses, but maybe they would buy restored houses. You would have to due diligence and confirm that the house has no ghosts. Ghost removal might be an approved occupation here.

The law isn't vague, it isn't allowed.

[lonewolf99]

Thais do buy 2nd hand houses. My GF's brother bought a 2 bed bungalow near Satahip for 300,000 baht. Why so cheap?  Repossessed by the bank. This was about 6 years ago.

I do not remember him calling in any monks etc....

 

Don't remember the bank name - but it was on Pattaya Klang just past the traffic lights on 2nd road heading towards the beach left hand side. They had a large sandwich board in the bank with pictures and details of the properties they were selling off again. Probably still have.

 

Also I did not know there so many S's in repossessed...........had to use the spell checker.

[CharlieH]

As with many things in Thailand, it makes no difference what anyone "thinks" or what the 'law says" what matters is the person wearing a uniform stood in front of you "thinks" and how he/she is going to proceed.

[kowpot]

Flipping houses in Thailand would be a new concept to Thai's I would think. Thai's are not real big on buying second hand homes. That is why there are a lot of vacant houses. 

 I always thought the government could relax standards on foreigners by allowing them to buy and own a used houses. Then flipping houses could be very profitable. Also, it would make some Mu Baans with empty houses look better.

  The law states that a foreigner cannot do the work that a Thai person could do.  Take it from there. I know that doesn't actually answer your question very well. 

I mow my own lawn and I haven't been arrested yet. So, I gues

1 hour ago, scorecard said:

 

It's true, Thais generally don't buy second hand houses, whatever condition, flipped or not flipped.

 

Why? The main reasons:

 

1. - Thais always seriously consider what personal / family status value they will gain before they spend money (this is a serious consideration). Buying things (and especially big ticket things) which are obviously second hand brings very little status value. In fact it would often bring a comment like 'can't afford the real thing' which is exactly what the average Thai doesn't want people to think and this is even more true with folks who do have money. Whether it's a bargain, whether it's restored or flipped doesn't change this attitude.

 

An aligned point - how many houses do you see which need maintenance, but it doesn't happen? Many. This is a twist of what I said just above. 'Why would you spend money to maintain something which would never sell anyway / why would you spend money of something which is now old?'

 

2. - Very different point. Many Thais would wonder about the past history of an existing house. Did anybody die there? are their ghosts because of death of some other past activity. Is it a house which has bad luck because of something from the past?

 

I don't agree that it's only lower class people who think like this. In general rich Thai folks are just as superstitious as anybody.  

 

On the other hand making your gf's house more comfortable for her sake / your sake on a purely personal level is a different and personal consideration. And you can certainly find many cases where foreigners have completely built or remodelled a full house. 

 

Yes, by the law you would need a work permit to do the work personally. To get a work permit a foreigner must be employed by a Thai company in a specific job which would be stated in the work permit book (for Thailand there is no such thing as a personal work visa or a general work permit to do anything).  

 

At the start of the Thai Visa site there an extensive thread on this subject. as already said, one of the main purposes of the Thai laws on this subject is to protect Thais from losing jobs to non-Thai people. Being the boss or the supervisor changes nothing, by the law you still need a work permit.  

 

The thread I mentioned above has a specific list of which occupations cannot be undertaken by non-Thai people. Even if the occupation is not on the protected occupations list a foreigner still needs a work permit to work in Thailand

 

Some folks will tell you 'don't worry, just go ahead and do it', and ultimately that's your decision, however be aware that if caught or reported then there are penalties including possible deportation. 

 

 

Very well put.  

[sinbin]

1 hour ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

In this regard you have to look at "Work" in a different way. "Work" as something you do to achieve some financial gain or benefit.

Even doing free community volunteer work requires a work permit in Thailand I believe.

Quote

 

1. REQUIREMENT

This type of visa is issued to applicants who wish to participate in voluntary services in Thailand.

 

2. DOCUMENTS REQUIRED

• Passport or travel document with validity not less than 6 months
• Visa application form completely filled out
• Recent (4 x 6 cm.) photograph of the applicant
• Recommendation letter addressed to the Consulate
• Copy of registration certificate of the employer/foundation/organisation
• Copy of the previous/current work permit (if any)
• Copy of the employment contract (if any)

• Consular officers reserve the rights to request additional documents as deemed necessary

3. VISA FEE

80 USD

 

http://www.thaiembassy.org/hochiminh/en/services/2886/34924-Non-Immigrant-Visa-"O"---Voluntary-Servi.html

Edited March 18, 2017 by sinbin

[mngmn]

1 hour ago, mfd101 said:

If you look at how so many new houses get treated here by their occupants - looking like a slum after about 12 months, no maintenance, no garden just rubbish everywhere, and goodness knows what they're like inside - then it's not surprising that people would be reluctant to buy second-hand. But restored (and exorcised) can be a different story ...

Another problem is the expectation that the price of property goes up every year.  This usually results in an inflated price for second hand properties when compared to new properties.  My condo building is full of empty condos for sale at maybe 25% more than their true value (50% more if you are a foreigner).  I could buy a brand new condo across the road cheaper. Expecting supply and demand to fix prices in Thailand is a mistake.

[puffy]

2 hours ago, daveAustin said:

Thais do buy secondhand; the spirit thing is more the lower folk, those with their head screwed on couldn't give a monkeys. It's all about if it's a good moobahn or not. They also flip.

 

Working on 'own' house (one you're living in) shouldn't be an issue. Spent years sorting 'mine', doing everything - paint, building work, hard landscaping, electrics, plumbing, you name it - and everyone knew. As said, it's all about getting the attention of the wrong sort, or if a neighbour has a bee in their bonnet. But I would do this again, and flip, without a second thought. It's quite easy to beautify a house here and make it look better than others in the street even with a tiny bit of imagination because most other houses languish. Banks have the best deals... get friendly with them.

The other day I got a phone call from the wife of a friend of mine. She wanted to buy the house I lived in previously. They have a lot of money and her husband (who is Thai) works for a big International company and they regularly travel worldwide, and their son goes to an International school. The reason she called me was to ask if the reason I moved out of the house was because there was a ghost there. It was very difficult not to laugh. So even some well off educated Thais believe in this.

[kowpot]

6 minutes ago, puffy said:

The other day I got a phone call from the wife of a friend of mine. She wanted to buy the house I lived in previously. They have a lot of money and her husband (who is Thai) works for a big International company and they regularly travel worldwide, and their son goes to an International school. The reason she called me was to ask if the reason I moved out of the house was because there was a ghost there. It was very difficult not to laugh. So even some well off educated Thais believe in this.

Did you tell her yes?

[TheFishman1]

Your not inventing the wheel been done many times flipping houses here you run the chance of being caught working no w p and if anybody gets mad at u then problems will fallow I no one guy that does it but he stays way clear of involvement TIT

[puffy]

1 minute ago, kowpot said:

Did you tell her yes?

Lol, I should of, but alas no. Just moved for work reasons.

[Ian Maxwell]

Hi Elkski, 

I would like to ask you are you living here with your GF in Thailand ? as I see you are from the USA UTAH ! I would like to say that your observation is very interesting and I praise your train of thought good thinking I have looked into many prospective oppirtunities here and one of them is just what you are thinking its a good idea in my opinion and you should not be detered by doubting thomesas  there are loads that either are envious either because they don,t have the money to do it or just simply don,t have the guts ! be optermistic and do some more home work first be very careful about putting the house in her name if you are investing your own money to do these projects use a good qulified lawyer that you sellect without her nollage so as not be set up ! but if you trust her and it is mostly her money then just make a contract so all is in black and white in a lawyers office thats business follow the rules of business and all will be OK for you both in the end ! 

I would love to help you with your venture as I have had quite a lot of experience in the past with refurbs in Europe and Thailand I also have a lot of contacts with pros just let me know if you need help with this sort of thing we can find a way to meet up all the very best Ian.

 

[GOLDBUGGY]

22 minutes ago, sinbin said:

Even doing free community volunteer work requires a work permit in Thailand I believe.

http://www.thaiembassy.org/hochiminh/en/services/2886/34924-Non-Immigrant-Visa-"O"---Voluntary-Servi.html

Yes! We have been down that road before.

 

"Generally" Volunteer Workers also get free food and a place to live. Perhaps even some living expenses, which I don't know. This was ruled as a Benefit (something of value instead of money). Thus the whole Work Permit Issue.

 

I don't think this was right but?????

[foxboy]

3 hours ago, transam said:

Many Thai folk will not get involved with a house where someone has popped off, some go to adjacent houses to ask if someone has popped off in the place they are interested in.

 

I know a guy with a lovely place he is/was trying to sell, unfortunately a girl drowned in the swimming pool, big problem...

I've just asked my g/f would she buy a second hand house... her answer.. depends if somebody die there, maybe give you bad dream, cannot stay there 

[Elkski]

I'm just thinking of things to keep me busy and I enjoy this sort of work.   Maybe if I just do her house to sell then fix up the next one she buys. I doubt these two house projects would cause  an issue.   I will be careful with my money.  I will just invest what I think is fair rent.  Just trying to understand things better. I thought for sure someone would say why would you use your own sweat when you can hire labor so cheaply. 

[LannaGuy]

Renovation without work permit is against the law and working in real estate is on the list of prohibitive professions. Discrete within ones own home who cares?  basically you cannot undertake any work which 'might' deprive a Thai of employment - risk your visa at your peril!

[jayboy]

3 hours ago, sinbin said:

I live in a rural village where the intellect level isn't at a high point but but even for renters they do not have monks doing exorcist parties before taking up residence. The monks would be rushed off their flip flops with that and funerals.

Speaking of "intellect" level, you might wish to research the the meaning of "intellect" and "education" because they are rather different.

[sinbin]

The law is an arse in Thailand. It's only enforced when it suits the powers that be. Out in the fields of Isaan you'll trip over the illegal Cambodian gangs employed to harvest the cassava at a much cheaper price than local Thais. Do local Thais complain about this practice? No because, firstly they don't know who to complain to. And secondly complaining might bring down too much trouble for them.

I'd say the same regarding them reporting a farang for working. They firstly don't know who to complain to, and secondly they don't know what can of worms they may be opening up. Mai pen rai.

[FritsSikkink]

2 hours ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

Working in Thailand without a Work Permit is a Grey Area, as this is not clearly defined. To simply say that you are not allowed to do any work a Thai can do is ridiculous. That would mean that any Farang who was helping his wife with the super dishes, cutting his grass, working in his garden, or even picking up paper bags and rubbish in his yard is at risk of being arrested and deported. I don't think so!

 

In this regard you have to look at "Work" in a different way. "Work" as something you do to achieve some financial gain or benefit. Benefit in that you accept something else of value instead of cash money. If a person was to build a beautiful statue, then place that on his front lawn, then there is probably nothing wrong with that. But if a friend should pop by, and like your statue, and wants you to build one for him which he will pay you for, and you decide to do that, then it is not okay.

 

What makes this a Grey Area, and why I said "is probably nothing wrong with that" as you also have to consider your "Intent" also. If you built this statue to beautify your lawn, then this is fine. But if you built this statue to advertise your a skills in doing this, so you could sell more later, then it would not be okay.

 

From what you have told us, you have a 2 part question. Firstly is it okay to fix up your GF House? As long as you live their with her yourself, and as long as she is not paying you to do that, then I don't see you having any legal problems with this.

 

However, and which seems to be your "Intent" and leading to your second part of your question, if you plan fix up this place then sell it for a quick profit, then move onto the next property to do the same, then it is not okay.  You would need a Work Permit which in this case I think it would be hard to get. Keep in mind the Land Transfer Fee's and Taxes are much higher on a property you had for only one year, verses 5 years or longer.

 

Would you get caught by the law for doing that? I don't know! Probably not the first couple of times. But if you continued to do this the amount of land transfers at the Land Office may raise some warning signs. If they investigated you further I don't think it would be too hard to prove you are doing that. Then it is "Goodbye John!" And not "See You Next Year" either.  

"Working in Thailand without a Work Permit is a Grey Area, as this is not clearly defined." utter nonsense it is clearly defined but you don't want to know about. 

[sinbin]

8 minutes ago, jayboy said:

Speaking of "intellect" level, you might wish to research the the meaning of "intellect" and "education" because they are rather different.

On the case now.

[sinbin]

17 minutes ago, jayboy said:

Speaking of "intellect" level, you might wish to research the the meaning of "intellect" and "education" because they are rather different.

Okay I got it. Let me know if I can help some more.

 

 

Quote

 

The difference between intelligence and education

 

War And Peace

There is much confusion in the world about education and intelligence. Education is knowledge acquired in formal learning environments, such as school. Intelligence is that actual ability to learn, to acquire, assimilate, and use new knowledge.

We are taught from the time we first enter school to judge someone's intelligence by their education and their performance in such formal environments, also known as "book smarts". This is taught by words, actions, and attitudes, from both teachers and, later on, other students. This concept that education equals intelligence is pushed on us so hard that few people ever get totally past it, even as they grow older.

You Can Be Highly Intelligent Without Being Highly Educated

Two of the most intelligent people I've ever met did very poorly in school. One graduated, but just barely, and the other never finished high school. When it comes to learning anything that they don't associate with school, they learn fast… much, much faster than normal.

People of well above average intelligence sometimes do poorly in school due to boredom. They sit there in classes designed for the lowest common denominator which don't provide enough stimulation for them, so they become bored and stop paying attention. They are distracted by the smallest things. People of less intelligence, on the other hand may have more of their mind occupied by the class, and thus be less prone to boredom. They are also more likely to be aware that they need to work hard and study in order to do well, where smart people may feel that it's easy and not study even when they DO need it.

You Can Be Highly Educated Without Being Highly Intelligent

On the other hand, I have met people with advanced degrees, including doctorates, who are of no more than average intelligence. This is not a bad thing… they have shown that they are willing to put in the time and effort to master something that does not come easy to them. It does also show, however, that higher education is not proof of higher intelligence.

There are also certainly professions which require extensive training (education), but not extremely high intelligence. Your average family practictioner, for example, can operate just fine without needing to have a genius IQ. He is following established procedures, prescribing standard medications for conditions diagnosed by standardized methods. He needs the education to teach him those standards, but he is not creating the standards, just following them… so having average intelligence is not a big deal at all.

Conclusion

Education is not equal to intelligence, though it is often used as an external measure of it. Certain types of education can give you a pretty good idea that someone is at least of certain minimum intelligence (you can't actually be dumb and have an advanced degree in mathematics), but they don't provide a measure of how far beyond that minimum they are, and a lack of education says absolutely nothing about their intelligence.

And, by the way, neither education nor intelligence prevent you from doing stupid things. As far as I know, nothing in the world stops that

 

.

Source: http://www.amiracleaday.com/articles/2007/09/19/the-difference-between-intelligence-and-education/

[LannaGuy]

23 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

"Working in Thailand without a Work Permit is a Grey Area, as this is not clearly defined." utter nonsense it is clearly defined but you don't want to know about. 

Yup it is clear and your visa depends upon you understanding that work is NOT permitted but some take the risk and some get deported and blacklisted even for 'voluntary' work. You make the choice and take the risk  'up to you'  

[canuckamuck]

1 hour ago, FritsSikkink said:

The law isn't vague, it isn't allowed.

Painting your own bedroom is against the law? Is the specifically stated or are you interpreting this?

[transam]

I just repaired Mrs.Trans bicycle (true)............................In the toilet......

[Jonmarleesco]

In a word, no. But I suppose that would depend on whether they could see you, and whether they were to see you.

 

Given the Thais' oft slap-happy approach, and dependent on the particular job, I certainly trust my own abilities more than theirs.

 

I'll be interested to see if there's any reaction when I get to checking my car's tyre pressures, fluid levels, etc. 

[Peterw42]

5 minutes ago, canuckamuck said:

Painting your own bedroom is against the law? Is the specifically stated or are you interpreting this?

They cant make a definitive law either way. A law against painting a private bedroom would be ridiculous and unworkable. If they made a law saying its legal, next day someone would use it as a way of beating the law and open a bedroom painting business. Someone could get a receipt saying they are renting the room and painting there own room etc, finish the job and throw the receipt away.

Work laws are vague on purpose because once you make a definitive law, it will be abused.

[FritsSikkink]

54 minutes ago, canuckamuck said:

Painting your own bedroom is against the law? Is the specifically stated or are you interpreting this?

You can paint your own bedroom, he wants to do up a house which isn't his to start with.

[alex8912]

If you really want to renovate and flip a place you have to have the location of the property be your first priority or it will sit too long unsold. I personally can only see this happen in Bangkok near a BTS station. The last place I bought fixed up and lived in a couple years and sold was a 6 minute walk from Chong Nonsi BTS just off Satorn. The building was 20 years old and extremely well maintained. The entire neighborhood changed over a couple years and nice restaurants, coffee shops and high end new condo buildings went up around me. The new construction now has one bedrooms going for 6 million baht + for often 35 to 39 sq meters! Mine last unit was 55 sq meters with a great modem kitchen and incredible city views. What I showed potential buyers was an immaculate and almost new looking condo for 5 million. Guess who bought it? A single professional FEMALE Thai.  I sold it in 27 days!  Don't listen to negative comments. Several Thai buyers came to look and I even got another offer just after I accepted one from another Thai.  Good luck. 

[transam]

2 minutes ago, alex8912 said:

If you really want to renovate and flip a place you have to have the location of the property be your first priority or it will sit too long unsold. I personally can only see this happen in Bangkok near a BTS station. The last place I bought fixed up and lived in a couple years and sold was a 6 minute walk from Chong Nonsi BTS just off Satorn. The building was 20 years old and extremely well maintained. The entire neighborhood changed over a couple years and nice restaurants, coffee shops and high end new condo buildings went up around me. The new construction now has one bedrooms going for 6 million baht + for often 35 to 39 sq meters! Mine last unit was 55 sq meters with a great modem kitchen and incredible city views. What I showed potential buyers was an immaculate and almost new looking condo for 5 million. Guess who bought it? A single professional FEMALE Thai.  I sold it in 27 days!  Don't listen to negative comments. Several Thai buyers came to look and I even got another offer just after I accepted one from another Thai.  Good luck. 

Condo.....

[chickenslegs]

1 hour ago, transam said:

I just repaired Mrs.Trans bicycle (true)............................In the toilet......

Some people just take a newspaper in there to pass the time.

[alex8912]

4 minutes ago, transam said:

Condo.....

Yes. The single family houses near Satorn sit on land that is worth an incredible amount of baht and out of reach for non millionaires.  As the global mod pointed out flipping a home refers to buying , fixing up and then selling a house, town house or condo. You can also buy a condo if a foreigner in building with less than 50% foreigners which include most buildings near Satorn and Silom.