Is The Term 'yellow' A Racist One?

[pampal]

Oriental and Occidental are not 'Brit-centric terms'. At one time, the British Empire was worldwide so how can anything have been east or west of it?

Occident - The West i.e. the countries of Europe and the Americas

Orient - The East i.e. the countries of Asia esp. SE Asia.

Both words are from Latin 'of the setting sun' and 'of the rising sun'

They are brit-centric as they were coined in England. You are right about the empire bit. I meant to say England and not the british empire. The same way that the prime meridian was unilaterally moved by the english from france to grenwich england, the brits had a notion of being in the center of the world. You can see as much in their maps of the period.

And yes they are latin words, as are many words in the english  language which stem from the Indo-european language tree. The suffixes and prefixes of many english words 

have a latin root or are latin. So it's easy to see if you are in the middle of the world, people are either to your east or west. Oriental and Occidental.

[LaReina]

Interesting how what sounds exotic to some can be offensive to others. For me.. Oriental sounds extremely exotic. I would not mind being called Oriental in the least.

But as other posters have stated, it SHOULD all come down to the tone of voice used and the manner.

The ideal thing would for everyone to call everyone everything and thus force any word that might be considered derogatory to lose it's meaning. eg the "N" word which would have lost its derogatory meaning if not for all the older people in the world who keep holding on to it as being negative (IMHO). For most younger people, it means an ignorant person.

I would say that referring to asians as yellow is derogatory and unkind, a generalization especially when you consider that they aren't all yellow and that they are actually many different skin tones.

As a diversion.....When I lived / worked in the Virgin Islands where the majority of the poulation is black, this was circulating through many offices as an amusing fax. When I saw it, I had to laugh.

[/size]

Based on your explanation of what makes "yellow" a derogatory word, how many "black" people have you met that were actually "black" vs. different shades of "brown". Or do your views on when colour is inappropriate start and stop with Asians?

Well Crossy Thai people can be brown in Isaan where you hang around but there are a lot of Thai people who are yellow, especially Thai-Chinese

There are Thai Chinese in Isaan. They are not yellow, they are whiter than I. I used to be yellow when I lived in Bangkok, changed to brown when first moving to Issaan, now white. I wanna be black - as Lou Reed says-

I wanna be black, wanna be like Martin Luther King

And get myself shot in the spring

And lead a whole generation, too

and ###### up the jews

You chose an interesting song to get your point (not quite sure what it was) across. BUT, your problem can easily be solved.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Anyone remember golliwogs?

Am I rascist if I don't throw my old one out?

Darkie toothpaste ?

Noddy's friend Big Ears is now Grey Beard so as not to offend people with big ears but we can offend people with grey beards!

I have big ears - is it ok for me to call him 'big ears'? Kinda like it's ok for black people to call themselves 'nigga'.

It is DARLIE nowdays

[PhilHarries]

Anyone remember golliwogs?

Am I rascist if I don't throw my old one out?

Darkie toothpaste ?

Noddy's friend Big Ears is now Grey Beard so as not to offend people with big ears but we can offend people with grey beards!

I have big ears - is it ok for me to call him 'big ears'? Kinda like it's ok for black people to call themselves 'nigga'.

It is DARLIE nowdays

I vaguely remember a brand of household mops in Thailand under the name Black Man or similar.

Anyone remember 'Till Death Us Do Part (Brit TV comedy) or how about Fawlty Towers when the old colonel was describing taking a lady friend to watch cricket at the Oval? Hugely funny but have no chance of being repeated without massive "remastering" by the PC police.

[gpt]

Do I detect a hint of Brit/non-Brit friction creeping in here? The terms were not coined in England. The Italian word for Orient is Oriente, French - Orient, German - der Orient. All of these words have the same source but, according to your logic, the British coined the term and exported it!

Britain and the map. Why does Britain appear to be in the centre of the map? I can only surmise; Orient is East and therefore looking at the map at the righthand side. The Occident goes to the left, by using this layout then we do not have to cut the Europe/Asia landmass. You can get other map projections -USA in the centre of the map, Australia in the centre and at the top and countless others. Maps of the Roman Empire show Rome in the centre.

Look at the three maps attached and tell me, purely from an artistic point of view, your opinion of layout

[pampal]

Do I detect a hint of Brit/non-Brit friction creeping in here? The terms were not coined in England. The Italian word for Orient is Oriente, French - Orient, German - der Orient. All of these words have the same source but, according to your logic, the British coined the term and exported it!

Britain and the map. Why does Britain appear to be in the centre of the map? I can only surmise; Orient is East and therefore looking at the map at the righthand side. The Occident goes to the left, by using this layout then we do not have to cut the Europe/Asia landmass. You can get other map projections -USA in the centre of the map, Australia in the centre and at the top and countless others. Maps of the Roman Empire show Rome in the centre.

Look at the three maps attached and tell me, purely from an artistic point of view, your opinion of layout

My point exactly. French,German,Italian,English etc... share the same roots (latin) and are Indo European languages.

But if you look at the suffix -al,   as in oriental and occidental, the french version and the italian and the german don't use this suffix. So Oriental and Occidental are the english equivilant and this form of the word as I rightly stated was coined in england. In france,germany and italy, they don't say oriental or occidental. They have their own form of the word which you have included in your post. Ethnocentric map projections have existed for a long time as have other projections which are not ethnocentric. I found the maps you included to be a good mixture of projections. the mere fact that the prime meridian is in grenwich can tell you a great deal about ethnocentric thinking.

so if the prime meridian is in england and at 0 degrees of longitude, where will the center of my map be?

India maybe or how about japan?

[gpt]

My point exactly. French,German,Italian,English etc... share the same roots (latin) and are Indo European languages.

But if you look at the suffix -al,   as in oriental and occidental, the french version and the italian and the german don't use this suffix. So Oriental and Occidental are the english equivilant and this form of the word as I rightly stated was coined in england. In france,germany and italy, they don't say oriental or occidental. They have their own form of the word which you have included in your post. Ethnocentric map projections have existed for a long time as have other projections which are not ethnocentric. I found the maps you included to be a good mixture of projections. the mere fact that the prime meridian is in grenwich can tell you a great deal about ethnocentric thinking.

so if the prime meridian is in england and at 0 degrees of longitude, where will the center of my map be?

India maybe or how about japan?

You, dear Sir, would have been better to stop when you were behind but seeing that you have decided to dig a deeper a hole then I will roll up my sleeves and help you.

English - An oriental country

French - Un pays oriental

Spanish - Un país oriental

Italian - Un paese orientale

Portuguese - Um país oriental

German - Ein orientalisches Land

So do you still maintain that it is only the English who add a suffix to orient to make it oriental?

Why is Greenwich the prime meridian?

It dates back to October 1884. At the behest of the President of the United States of America 41 delegates from 25 nations met in Washington, DC, USA for the International Meridian Conference.

At the Conference the following important principles were established:

It was desirable to adopt a single world meridian to replace the numerous ones already in existence.

The Meridian passing through the principal Transit Instrument at the Observatory at Greenwich was to be the 'initial meridian'.

That all longitude would be calculated both east and west from this meridian up to 180ฐ.

All countries would adopt a universal day.

The universal day would be a Mean Solar Day, beginning at the Mean Midnight at Greenwich and counted on a 24 hour clock.

That nautical and astronomical days everywhere would begin at mean midnight.

All technical studies to regulate and extend the application of the decimal system to the division of time and space would be supported.

Resolution 2, fixing the Meridian at Greenwich was passed 22-1 (San Domingo voted against), France & Brazil abstained.

http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/info/conference.htm

Where is the centre of your map? It is wherever you decide to put it!

Edited December 20, 2006 by gpt

[pampal]

Quote from gpt:

The Italian word for Orient is Oriente, French - Orient, German - der Orient

later he adds

English - An oriental country

French - Un pays oriental

Spanish - Un país oriental

Italian - Un paese orientale

Portuguese - Um país oriental

German - Ein orientalisches Land

So do you still maintain that it is only the English who add a suffix to orient to make it oriental?

So which is correct gpt, is it the first batch of names or the second?

Contradictions anyone

Or do all countries add an -al suffix?

As the -al suffix is latin, it doesn't surprise me to see them used.

Anyways similarity in related languages is not unheard of or strange in anyway. 

Do the chinese also use the suffix -al? 

So at least we agree oriental and occidental are not chinese words.

Do you deny the use of the word occidental and oriental in the english language. You say others use them, well others also use english words like computer. does that change the origin of the word. Many people in the world use the word doctor. does usage denote ownership?

And as to that conference, does the list of attendee countries add up to

all the countries in the world who would be affected or are they composed mainly of current,former

and aspiring empire builders?

The French did not adopt the Greenwich meridian until 1911 so obviously they were not in favor of such a move.

Many countries invited would have protested the placing of the meridian in grenwich, but it seems they had no input, or better yet, their input was unwanted as they were not invited.

The notion of the day being split in 24 hours was not conceived of at this conference nor the notion of a day starting at midnight.

So if you think I am brit bashing, I believe you are mistaken.

And roll your sleeves back down, it's getting cold in the LOS.

[Donz]

Does that mean Indians are considered yellow too??

[Neeranam]

Does that mean Indians are considered yellow too??

No, they're red.

[Donz]

Does that mean Indians are considered yellow too??

No, they're red.

Not sure if your being serious or not.

[bkkmei]

I'm of Chinese descent. I can't really remember 'yellow' being used in the same context as 'black' and 'white'. So can't say how I feel about it! As has been noted, depends on intention of speaker. Anyhow, I'm whiter than many 'white' people!

'Oriental' is an interesting term. I was pretty surprised when my US friends told me it was considered highly insulting. Growing up in the UK, had no sense that it was a derogatory term. Still don't actually.

BTW, all the talk about golliwogs - I've seen some toys in Central that look not exactly like golliwogs but caricatures of say African tribesmen - anyone else seen them?

[toptuan]

This notion of not being able to say certain words and terms is getting all out of hand.

Agreed!

Just in case people here don't know, Chinese proudly procliam themselves as the "yellow race".

So if you are speaking in Chinese, saying that they are yellow certainly will not be considered racist.

But God knows what implications it has in English!

...and it's probably one of those cases where they can call themselves "yellow" but you'd better not. Not unlike some blacks who often jokingly call themselves the "N" word, but, by God, you'd better not. On the same vein, I get hysterical laughs from my Thai friends when I explain the term "white trash" to them, and sometimes call myself that in certain funny situations. In their conversations, however, I'd prefer if they apply the moniker to someone else.

By the way, I've been both honored and insulted by the term "farang":

1) Village people on introducing me to Thai from other villages: "He's our farang!"

2) Thai college vice-presidential applicant on failing a verbal English exam administered by myself: "FARANG kee nok!" ("bird-sh#t foreigner!" Pretty close to "white trash" actually...)

Edited December 20, 2006 by toptuan

[gpt]

Quote from gpt:

The Italian word for Orient is Oriente, French - Orient, German - der Orient

later he adds

English - An oriental country

French - Un pays oriental

Spanish - Un país oriental

Italian - Un paese orientale

Portuguese - Um país oriental

German - Ein orientalisches Land

So do you still maintain that it is only the English who add a suffix to orient to make it oriental?

So which is correct gpt, is it the first batch of names or the second?

Contradictions anyone

Or do all countries add an -al suffix?

As the -al suffix is latin, it doesn't surprise me to see them used.

Anyways similarity in related languages is not unheard of or strange in anyway. 

Do the chinese also use the suffix -al? 

So at least we agree oriental and occidental are not chinese words.

Do you deny the use of the word occidental and oriental in the english language. You say others use them, well others also use english words like computer. does that change the origin of the word. Many people in the world use the word doctor. does usage denote ownership?

So if you think I am brit bashing, I believe you are mistaken.

And roll your sleeves back down, it's getting cold in the LOS.

Forget the GMT argument, it has no place on this thread. Feel free to start a new thread.

My first list is the noun 'orient' and its equivalent in other languages

The second is the adjective ''oriental' and its equivalent in other languages

Do you want me to put it in tabular form for you?

What has your statement "Do the chinese also use the suffix -al? So at least we agree oriental and occidental are not chinese words." got to do with this discussion? You are now using silliness instead of logic.

"Do you deny the use of the word occidental and oriental in the english language?" Now I know you are being silly! The words originated in Latin and migrated to other languages.

The reference to me rolling my sleeves down has nothing to do with the weather, more to do with the expression "He dug himself a hole...." I won't explain that to you if you have not heard it, just look it up.

[Ulysses G.]

'Oriental' is an interesting term. I was pretty surprised when my US friends told me it was considered highly insulting. Growing up in the UK, had no sense that it was a derogatory term. Still don't actually.

It is only considered derogatory to the hard-core, politically correct crowd. Normal people don't seem to mind it.

[Jamie]

They are brit-centric as they were coined in England. You are right about the empire bit. I meant to say England and not the british empire. The same way that the prime meridian was unilaterally moved by the english from france to grenwich england, the brits had a notion of being in the center of the world. You can see as much in their maps of the period.

And yes they are latin words, as are many words in the english  language which stem from the Indo-european language tree. The suffixes and prefixes of many english words 

have a latin root or are latin. So it's easy to see if you are in the middle of the world, people are either to your east or west. Oriental and Occidental.

pampal,

If these are indeed Brit-centric terms, then what about the terms for north (Boreal) and south (Austral). Were they using these terms to describe lands to the north of England and those to the south?

[thedude]

It really does come down to a bit of cutural sensitivity.

If a person or group of persons find a term offensive then far better not to use it.

What your think doesn't really come into the equation it is what the other party percieves that is offensive is what matters.

Tolley's post says it all.

In an increasingly globalized world, you will never find a uniform interpretation, if any word is risky, dont use it.

It is not what you think, but how it is received that matters.

[meadish_sweetball]

See http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=orient for a lowdown of the etymology of the word 'orient'.

[JimsKnight]

My girlfriend describes herself as yellow, and she is. Her friends do the same, and they mean her no slight. It's just plain silly how these descriptive words have taken on "racist" connotations. I used to spend time in Costa Rica, people would often use negro, nerito, blanco, flaco, gordo as descriptive terms among friends, or even strangers. They meant no ill will whatsoever. There are enough things to worry over, but I don't think this need be one.

Here here.

Its not a racist term unless you make it one. And I think everyone here should know the line and not cross it.

Yellow as in 'Hey! There are some yellow people over there lets go talk to them.' Is certainly not.

Talking to a girl who has yellow skin. 'Hey, I like your yellow skin!' Is definately not.

Using the term yellow with malice. 'You yellow Bstard, I'm going to get you for that!' Could be racist.

A big point that a lot of people missed was that nowadays many in western society is a lot thinner skinned than of old and has this big guilt trip where we the white man are to blame for many things. The Western World didn't really really enslave a lot of the yellow people or Chinese so I've never heard of it being a problem. Conversely, partly because of the African slave trade the eventual sympathy and regret in the 1980s and 1990s has caused pc gone totally the opposite way and overly racial vocab. to be taboo'd.

It almost seems like we panic that ethnic groups may take offence if we use their colour as a descriptor.

This descriptor is very handy for 'painting a scene' so to speak.

[PhilHarries]

Does that mean Indians are considered yellow too??

No, they're red.

Not sure if your being serious or not.

Depends on whether we are talking North American Indians or Asian Indians.

Either way the red or yellow term has little or nothing to do with their skin colour.

Red was applied to the North American natives by the invading European settlers. Maybe they were colour blind.

But I've never heard the term yellow being applied to any people other than those from the far eastern countries China, Japan etc. Therefore it's not a racial term as it is only applied to certain peoples of Asian race. Nonetheless, depending on how it's applied, the term yellow applied to Asians can be percieved as derogatory.

It's not what you say, it's how you say it.

[Casanundra]

Ok let's follow this through into everyday pragmatics.

Let's first look at the base colours of the rainbow. Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, Indigo, Violet

We cannot say:

RED because it may upset the Indians

ORANGE because it may upset all those with a fake sun tan

YELLOW because it may upset anyone with jaundice, liver problems or of oriental (Asian) descent

GREEN in case someone is feeling jealous and let's face it, who wants to be the wrath of that trait

BLUE in case someone is feeling sad and may burst into tears

So that leaves us with Indigo and Violet as the only rainbow colours that we are PC officially allowed to use and say unless of course you are an anti-royalist and then you may even take offence at using the royal colours as well.

We already know we cannot use brown, white, black or pink (offends the pigs) and so we are left with several shades of grey to play with. Ah! but even then we could offend some of the less colourful folk and the ones who are old and dare I say it grey so even there we are on thin ice.

We are meant to be one global world and when the meteor comes hurtling in to end the world as we know it, who on earth will consider themselves different and unqiue then. There is only one of us and so all this nonsense of walking on eggs and wondering what to say will eventually eliminate any use of the language as we know it and we will just all have to resort back to grnfs and grunts and groans instead and back to the caveman (sorry I should say cave person) mentality we will all return. It really is all very silly.

Edited December 21, 2006 by Casanundra

[steveromagnino]

Some of you are on the right track IMHO.

Calling someone yellow can be insulting, the same as calling someone a 'girl' can also be meant as a compliment, an objective description or an as insult.

Almost everytime I have been called yellow, it has been very clearly meant to be insulting; and it is perhaps a pity that the idiot (and in a couple of cases, relative of mine) involved could not come up with something more imaginative.

Saying to someone 'get the hel_l out of my country you yellow POS' is clearly an example where the yellow is meant in itself to be insulting.

In general, when people choose to say things like 'those yellow peoples' or 'the darkies' it is either because they want to be insulting or they are too stupid/uneducated to use an expression that is more accurate. Use it, and you look more stupid than nastily racist IMHO. Unless you mean it as an insult, in which case it will be interpreted as one.

Not particularly hurtful. I personally find 'Chink' 'Gook' or 'Chinaman' to be far more insulting; although i do recall getting into an enjoyable verbal sparring match with someone who called me a 'f'ing nip' and I think he could have been significantly better educated as a result if he had chosen to listen to me, as he would have learned that a person cannot easily be a f'ing chink and a gook and a nip at the same time. Sadly, my little lesson might have been lost on him.

To each their own; I know that some people consider Chinaman to not be remotely insulting at all; by comparison I doubt many Chinese would consider yellow to be worse than Chinaman.

In fact, there is even vernacular using terms like these that many of my Chinese friends use; 'banana' is of course an ethnic Chinese or Asian that is born and raised in the west and cannot speak (hence yellow skin, but white on the inside) while some guy with yellow fever is the white guy hanging around trying to get stuck into import tuner type girlies (for the most part).

Not sure you could easily use yellow in regards to Thais, as for the most part Thais are either brown or a shade of it (especially any around most westerners with 'yellow fever') rather than yellow.

BTW no one is suggesting you cannot use the words for colours. You can. Just looks a bit stupid when you use it to talk about Asians as a group, since so few actually have yellow skin. To refer to redheads as a bunch of gingers is perhaps making more sense, as redheads are actually gingery coloured.

[undercover]

Got in a little hometown jam

So they put a rifle in my hand

Sent me off to a foreign land

To go and kill the yellow man

................................

Bruce springsteen, born in usa.

[Livinginexile]

Why am I not offended when I am called white?

Maybe because you are not white? more a pastey grey like most of the farangs in Thailand?