Culture shock of a different kind

[kashmir1997]

I'm an Indian student who just returned from Thailand with a few fellow history students from my university on what you could call a 'pilgrimage' of sorts. We wanted to trace Thailand's Hindu-Buddhist history and explore its ancient and contemporary connection to India. We've always been fascinated with the land to the east of our country for this reason – They fervently follow the Buddha, Thailand's national emblem is a Hindu deity (the Garuda), there's the Erawan shrine, Ayutthaya, named after India's Ayodhya, there's Cambodia, named after India's ancient Kamboj tribe, there's the Angkor Wat. Even when we stepped into Bangkok's Suvarnabhumi (again, Sanskrit name) airport, we were quite stunned to see the statue that depicts the churning of the Ocean (a Hindu mythological story). It was like home. I also found out they celebrate Songkran, which a variation of our festival Sangkranti. 

 

It was our first time in Thailand and our trip was good, starting from Bangkok and culminating in the northern part of the country in Chiang Mai. We visited shrines, temples, monasteries, and it was deeply humbling. Thailand is probably the most Indianised country I've ever seen in terms of culture. It was also a really unique experience from a climate/geographic, perspective, because to document India's holiest sites we had to visit freezing and snowed-in temples tucked in the Himalayas at 5/6/7000m altitudes, so Thailand's overwhelmingly jungle and tropical landscape was a change from the high-altitude terrain of the Himalayas we're used to. The Thais were also wonderful, there were many of them in the 'Wat Khaek' we visited in Bangkok. It was quite surprising seeing Buddhists follow Hindu traditions by praying at the Erawan and Wat Khaek, but what we learnt from our trip was that Thai Buddhism is syncretised with Hinduism. 

 

Out of all the cities/towns we visited, the most unpleasant by far was Bangkok. This wasn't any fault of the Thais, but rather of the Caucasian/Britisher foreigners around. We didn't frequent any clubs/red light districts as that wasn't the purpose of our trip, but some of the "debauchery" spilled into the other areas we frequented and it was so shocking that I had to do a double take to make sure I wasn't hallucinating it. I saw old, almost infirm and obese Caucasian grandfathers with young Thai women, drunk Caucasian men sitting down on pavements and one or two of them vomiting because they presumably couldn't control their alcohol and Thai women "lovingly" patting their backs/"caring" for them, I saw open solicitation all over the streets, I saw a white man grope a Thai woman - or maybe it was a ladyboy - all over and attempt to forcefully make out with her while she resisted, and while I'm by no means any prude (coming from the land of the Kama Sutra), I was just stunned to see this happening in Thailand, especially considering I'd travelled to document its faith and culture for a university project but was instead confronted with mind-blowing levels of sleaze. To myself I thought, "where are the police? Does the government condone this?" I even witnessed a drunken altercation between Caucasians and local Thai men (presumably over solicitation) during my week-long stay in Bangkok and it was unreal.

 

I don't think I've seen this anywhere, and I've been to quite a few places. Stuff like this (Indian women openly selling themselves to white men) doesn't happen in Goa either which is pretty much our own little hub of debauchery. I'm posting on this forum today as I'm curious as to whether this kind of behaviour is condoned in Thailand by the Caucasian foreigners who frequent this forum. I've found out more about the "sexpat" stereotype in the last few days and I'm curious as to how the people on here perceive these "sexpats" because this was perhaps the biggest form of culture shock I experienced in Thailand. Also, could someone shed light on why the country tolerates something that would be cracked down upon in other nations? Plus, Thailand seems to be developing pretty quickly, so why do Thai women engage in such professions as opposed to finding other forms of livelihood? Thanks.

[tonray]

While much of what you say cannot be disputed...surely you realize the exploitation and outright brutalization of women that takes place in India ? Are you not outraged by that too ?

[kashmir1997]

12 minutes ago, tonray said:

While much of what you say cannot be disputed...surely you realize the exploitation and outright brutalization of women that takes place in India ? Are you not outraged by that too ?

 

I'm a 19 year old student who wants to know more about what I just experienced in a neighbouring /culturally similar country that we share a maritime border with. I'm not here to have an earful from a non-Asian foreigner whose perception of India is based on what the Daily Mail reports, when the U.S. has a much higher rape rate than my country and 10 American students from Texas were jailed yesterday for brutalising women. Could we please stick to the topic instead of having people who know 0 about my country derail this legitimate conversation, perhaps because they're embarrassed that they embody all that I just outlined in my original post? If you want to talk about women's rights, and take this conversation in that direction, start your own thread. Stop deflecting. India has improved by leaps and bounds, and if anything, the vast majority of exploitation happens not amongst the Hindu, Buddhist, Sikh, Jain, or Christian communities, but along the 14% demographic if you know what I mean. It's 'their' religious thing, nothing to do with India. 

[malt25]

Yawn !

[tonray]

12 minutes ago, kashmir1997 said:

 

I'm a 19 year old student who wants to know more about what I just experienced in a neighbouring /culturally similar country that we share a maritime border with. I'm not here to have an earful from a non-Asian foreigner whose perception of India is based on what the Daily Mail reports, when the U.S. has a much higher rape rate than my country and 10 American students from Texas were jailed yesterday for brutalising women. Could we please stick to the topic instead of having people who know 0 about my country derail this legitimate conversation, perhaps because they're embarrassed that they embody all that I just outlined in my original post? If you want to talk about women's rights, and take this conversation in that direction, start your own thread. Stop deflecting. India has improved by leaps and bounds, and if anything, the vast majority of exploitation happens not amongst the Hindu, Buddhist, Sikh, Jain, or Christian communities, but along the 14% demographic if you know what I mean. It's 'their' religious thing, nothing to do with India. 

 

So your problem is a philosophical one then ? You are curious why Asian women will prostitute themselves to fat white westerners but not curious why Asian or Indian women will prostitute themselves to their own respective ethnic groups ? Sounds  a bit racist at first glance.

[Jingthing]

Hi there, dude from India.

While I find the tone of your posts to be bordering on racialist incitement, the basic answer to your queries is that no, such behavior as you describe is not officially sanctioned by the Thai government and it's not in keeping with traditional Thai cultural values. Not so much the different age stuff or the prostitution, but the open flaunting of it rather than done discreetly in less public spaces. Thais will often frequent sex workers or have kept women or men, but they're not so inclined to take them out for dinner. Most of is "tolerated" though and the general feeling among Thais is that it's the westerners largely being exploited (financially) rather than the Thai sex workers. Houses are bought, fortunes are squandered. So sucking hard currency from such westerners can be seen overall as an economic boon for the nation. 

Enjoy your studies.

[Crossy]

People.

 

Please take a moment to read the forum rules here http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/terms/, particularly these:-

 

Quote

7) You will respect fellow members and post in a civil manner. No personal attacks, hateful or insulting towards other members, (flaming) Stalking of members on either the forum or via PM will not be allowed.

8) You will not post disruptive or inflammatory messages, vulgarities, obscenities or profanities.

 

I for one am not happy with the term "Britisher" which is a peculiarly Indian term certainly used on me in a derogatory manner whilst working there. Particularly our OP uses the term "Caucasian/Britisher foreigners" we Brits are Caucasian too, so why single us out?

 

I think I know which way this is going, so this is the one and only warning.

 

[kashmir1997]

7 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Hi there, dude from India.

While I find the tone of your posts to be bordering on racialist incitement, the basic answer to your queries is that no, such behavior as you describe is not officially sanctioned by the Thai government and it's not in keeping with traditional Thai cultural values. Not so much the different age stuff or the prostitution, but the open flaunting of it rather than done discreetly in less public spaces. Thais will often frequent sex workers or have kept women or men, but they're not so inclined to take them out for dinner. Most of is "tolerated" though and the general feeling among Thais is that it's the westerners largely being exploited (financially) rather than the Thai sex workers. Houses are bought, fortunes are squandered. So sucking hard currency from such westerners can be seen overall as an economic boon for the nation. 

Enjoy your studies.

 

Thanks, but re: "incitement", I think many people here need to understand that I'm not a Westerner nor is English my 1st language. We don't beat around the bush, we just speak bluntly and say things "as they are", so more people should keep that in mind when interacting with nonwhites who speak English to whites because our mentality and norms are different. I personally don't know why some whites on here are taking this personally, if they haven't committed any degenerate acts then what does my post have to do with them?

 

As for the main issue at hand, is Thailand's economic situation that dire? Even in countries with a lower GDP per capita, it's not common to see local women selling themselves to foreigners. An example would be Nepal. 

[tonray]

2 minutes ago, kashmir1997 said:

 

Thanks, but re: "incitement", I think many people here need to understand that I'm not a Westerner nor is English my 1st language. We don't beat around the bush, we just speak bluntly and say things "as they are", so more people should keep that in mind when interacting with nonwhites who speak English to whites because our mentality and norms are different. I personally don't know why some whites on here are taking this personally, if they haven't committed any degenerate acts then what does my post have to do with them?

 

As for the main issue at hand, is Thailand's economic situation that dire? Even in countries with a lower GDP per capita, it's not common to see local women selling themselves to foreigners. An example would be Nepal. 

Foreigners pay more than locals. 

[kashmir1997]

5 minutes ago, Crossy said:

People.

 

Please take a moment to read the forum rules here http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/terms/, particularly these:-

 

 

I for one am not happy with the term "Britisher" which is a peculiarly Indian term certainly used on me in a derogatory manner whilst working there. Particularly our OP uses the term "Caucasian/Britisher foreigners" we Brits are Caucasian too, so why single us out?

 

I think I know which way this is going, so this is the one and only warning.

 

"Britisher" is what we've called British people since the days of the Raj. Derogatory Indian terms towards whites are 'gora' and 'firangi'; the Thai word 'farang' etymologically descends from the latter. This is the first time I've heard someone say that 'Britisher' is used in a derogatory sense. It's just a simple linguistic difference, Indian English differs from British English just like Australian English does and since you've worked there, you should know. 

[Crossy]

"Britisher" was definitely used on me in a derogatory manner. I will say it was by older Indian people, so it's usage may have changed subtly over the years.

 

Whatever. Please be careful how you refer to others, I'm not ever sure referring to yourself as "non-white" is acceptable in our overly PC world

 

[Crossy]

And I've just deleted the first racist flame.

 

There will be no more!

 

EDIT And now I've removed the reply. Rather than responding to the flames please simply use the Report button at the top of every post.

 

EDIT 2 I'm sorry, I don't have the time nor the inclination to referee this match. Thread closed.

[Ron19]

You beat me to it.

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