Motorbike accident deaths: Thailand number one in the world

[Airbagwill]

On 18/04/2017 at 3:44 PM, Destiny1990 said:

Got nothing against good helmets but it will not bring down the number of accidents right?

Mandatory speed limits for bikes will bring the number of accidents down same as better motorbike  lisence obtaining procedures and road rules behaviour testing.

Not necessarily ...you need to be clear. Are you talking about incidents or deaths. You need then to look at the percentage of incidents attributed to speeding and then see how much reduction is predicted and then estimate the concomitant drop in deaths. So it MIGHT bring about a small reduction in a small sector of death related incidents.

Again it needs to be said that the vast majority incidents a not the result of extremely rash behaviour they  are far more likely to be the result of relatively  minor human error and a combination of contributory factors. Blame, single issue solutions and racially based insults on the Thai victims are not helpful.

Edited April 20, 2017 by Airbagwill

[Airbagwill]

10 hours ago, olli room said:

Actually it's the combination of both speed and type of impact that makes the difference of whether you're going to live or die. But never mind, I'm not gonna endlessly split hairs over this subject.

If you come off a bike on a race track both your clothing and the track are designed to minimise any ensuing damage.... A major factor  of race tracks is perfect road surface and no trees accompanied by no oncoming traffic and a qualified medical team on permanent alert.. Try finding those conditions on a Thai road.

As for individual anecdotes ...there will be as many of those who died at ultra slow speed as at ultra hi speed..as any scientist will tell you, the plural of anecdote is not data

[olli room]

If you come off a bike on a race track both your clothing and the track are designed to minimise any ensuing damage.... A major factor  of race tracks is perfect road surface and no trees accompanied by no oncoming traffic and a qualified medical team on permanent alert.. Try finding those conditions on a Thai road.
As for individual anecdotes ...there will be as many of those who died at ultra slow speed as at ultra hi speed..as any scientist will tell you, the plural of anecdote is not data

Don't know why you're talking about race tracks, obviously missed the subject of this whole thread.
And 'individual anecdotes' can be incidents too, if they're reported and recorded properly. They then become part of a set of data, which can in turn be analyzed and evaluated by 'scientists'.

[Destiny1990]

1 hour ago, Airbagwill said:

Not necessarily ...you need to be clear. Are you talking about incidents or deaths. You need then to look at the percentage of incidents attributed to speeding and then see how much reduction is predicted and then estimate the concomitant drop in deaths. So it MIGHT bring about a small reduction in a small sector of death related incidents.

Again it needs to be said that the vast majority incidents a not the result of extremely rash behaviour they  are far more likely to be the result of relatively  minor human error and a combination of contributory factors. Blame, single issue solutions and racially based insults on the Thai victims are not helpful.

I talking about reducement of speed for all vehicles it  will reduce the number of accidents and the number casualties.Saying that a better driving examination education system is a racially comment says more about you than me.Make it more difficult to obtain a car or bike lisence more lessons more theory!

[Shiver]

If I am static and get squeezed between a truck and a car tying to pull out. I don't care what the speed limit is.

 

 

[Destiny1990]

1 hour ago, Shiver said:

If I am static and get squeezed between a truck and a car tying to pull out. I don't care what the speed limit is.

 

 

Either way u will pay the fine.?

[sarwardee]

I

Make it more difficult to obtain a car or bike lisence more lessons more theory!

Ahhh now there's a great idea.

Make the license tougher to get by raising the standard of education needed to get one. How simple and straightforward.

Sure it won't fix everything - but it's an excellent beginning to life on the road (excuse the pun)


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Destiny1990]

4 hours ago, sarwardee said:

 

 

Ahhh now there's a great idea.

Make the license tougher to get by raising the standard of education needed to get one. How simple and straightforward.

Sure it won't fix everything - but it's an excellent beginning to life on the road (excuse the pun)


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

Hi are you serious about that u  like mine opinion about making it much harder to obtain car and motorbike licenses?because  i am not used to get positive replies here ??so thats why reaction is suspicious 

Edited April 21, 2017 by Destiny1990

[Airbagwill]

23 hours ago, olli room said:

Don't know why you're talking about race tracks, obviously missed the subject of this whole thread.
And 'individual anecdotes' can be incidents too, if they're reported and recorded properly. They then become part of a set of data, which can in turn be analyzed and evaluated by 'scientists'.

QED    the plural if anecdote is NOT data.

[sarwardee]

Hi are you serious about that u  like mine opinion about making it much harder to obtain car and motorbike licenses?because  i am not used to get positive replies here [emoji3][emoji2]so thats why reaction is suspicious 

Yes absolutely. It's a great idea to raise the level of awareness & educate before the license is granted + it's easily do-able


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Airbagwill]

23 hours ago, Destiny1990 said:

I talking about reducement of speed for all vehicles it  will reduce the number of accidents and the number casualties.Saying that a better driving examination education system is a racially comment says more about you than me.Make it more difficult to obtain a car or bike lisence more lessons more theory!

Well if you reduce the legal limit to zero you will reduce the accident rate to a similar figure...but your assumptions are not directly backed up by the stats....speed needs to be practical and appropriate  or it can exacerbate the problem....Especially with multiple differentials on poorly marked and regulated roads....Anyone who comes upon a motorcycle and side car trying to negotiate a u-turn some kilometers sdistant will appreciate that.

As said most of the comments on this thread are pure assumption and long-held misconceptions

[Destiny1990]

2 minutes ago, sarwardee said:

 

Yes absolutely. It's a great idea to raise the level of awareness & educate before the license is granted + it's easily do-able


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

Okay cool than how about adding for all the people who already have their bike and car  license  a mandatory one full day traffic refreshment course?People most pay for this repetition of road safety and rules regulations traffic course  by them selves in order to have their license extended.

[sarwardee]

Okay cool than how about adding for all the people who already have their bike and car  license  a mandatory one full day traffic refreshment course?People most pay for this repetition of road safety and rules regulations traffic course  by them selves in order to have their license extended.

Yep. Seems like common sense to me.

Especially as the road rules and regulations are being updated and changed many times during the years.

This is a sensible, no frills solution that serves everyone for the better


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Destiny1990]

16 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

Well if you reduce the legal limit to zero you will reduce the accident rate to a similar figure...but your assumptions are not directly backed up by the stats....speed needs to be practical and appropriate  or it can exacerbate the problem....Especially with multiple differentials on poorly marked and regulated roads....Anyone who comes upon a motorcycle and side car trying to negotiate a u-turn some kilometers sdistant will appreciate that.

As said most of the comments on this thread are pure assumption and long-held misconceptions

Maybe u expect to much from an airbag will?

[Scott]

An inflammatory post has been reported and removed.  

[Bigdogfarang]

I was renting a motorbike in samui and was talking to the owner of the shop about how dangerous some people are on the roads and he said think how small samui is - we used to have 1 hospital now we have 6... kind of puts it into perspective 

[evadgib]

4 minutes ago, Bigdogfarang said:

I was renting a motorbike in samui and was talking to the owner of the shop about how dangerous some people are on the roads and he said think how small samui is - we used to have 1 hospital now we have 6... kind of puts it into perspective 

Not entirely; there wasn't an airport then either!

[Bigdogfarang]

1 minute ago, evadgib said:

Not entirely; there wasn't an airport then either!

50-100k people - 6 hospitals I'd say that's a high ratio ?

[richard_smith237]

One thing and one thing only will reduce the number of accidents on the Roads of Thailand, and in doing so reduce the deaths.... 

 

Education... 

 

It really is that simple... Educate both Car Drivers and Motorcycle Riders to ride and drive properly, educate motorcycle riders that helmets are important. Educate both to be courteous and respectful of each other on the roads.

 

Education can take many forms... Starting in Schools, continued on Road Traffic Campaigns on Television, to better enforcement of the road laws (which already exist and are pretty good), and of course, primarily with adequate driver training and licensing.

 

It would also involve Education of the Police officers to know these laws, enabling them to enforce them accurately. 

 

Educate those in positions of decision making power that rather than seasonal clampdowns, consistency is key, consistent enforcement all year round. 

 

Educate society to care for itself. At the moment, friends who drink and drive do not reprimand each other, those who ride dangerously are not ridiculed by their friends.... Social common sense is fairly low... educate people to recognize and act against stupidity.

 

 

It really is ALL about education... Until this is resolved the route cause of all these deadly accidents is simple Ignorance....  Stupid Ignorance, Innocent Ignorance, deliberate Ignorance at times, but the route is always some form of Ignorance towards consequence. 

 

 

[SABloke]

50-100k people - 6 hospitals I'd say that's a high ratio ?

 

It seems high. Thailand's average is 50 000 people per hospital. It could also be attributed to the fact though that Samui has people willing to spend money to not wait in queues all day.

 

[dick dasterdly]

On 4/19/2017 at 3:13 PM, Youbloodybeauty said:

 

Serious question, anyone know if there are many defensive driver courses in Thailand?
A quick Google search and seems there are very few. Maybe I'm missing if they are in Thai language.

 

Would love to get the relo onto one of these courses. My white knuckles are evident sitting the in-laws car. She constantly sits in the right-hand lane on the high speed roads in our area. Apparently the right lane is smoother  

...never-mind the speeders ripping up behind her.

More relevantly - in practice the right hand lane is generally for cars whereas the left hand lane is for scooters and four wheel vehicles driving very slowly.

 

Four wheel vehicle drivers (paying attention) move into the left hand lane when a faster vehicle is approaching.

 

 

[Youbloodybeauty]

17 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

More relevantly - in practice the right hand lane is generally for cars whereas the left hand lane is for scooters and four wheel vehicles driving very slowly

Relevantly, I'm talking about the road in the piccy below. Does the right lane look smoother? :) It's 60km/h but plenty driving at 100+

Sitting in that right lane even at 80km/h with plenty tour minibuses (in that area) you will have them sniffing your clacker. Extra slow vehicles, scooters etc ride on the far left and stay out of the 2 main lanes.

Makes me laugh on this road seeing cars at 100+ cutting the curves. On a left sweeping curve they start in the right lane and end up in the scooter lane and back out to the right lane lol.

Anyone know of a decent defensive driving course?

Edited April 23, 2017 by Youbloodybeauty

[tominbkk]

Moto riders fly by with impunity, constantly taking risks. I really could care less if they die, just don't do so and damage my car in the process.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[chrissables]

5 minutes ago, tominbkk said:

Moto riders fly by with impunity, constantly taking risks. I really could care less if they die, just don't do so and damage my car in the process.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

Cars fly past me when i am on my bike, was it you? If so i could not care if you die, and smash your car up too.

Edited April 23, 2017 by chrissables

[JAG]

51 minutes ago, Youbloodybeauty said:

Relevantly, I'm talking about the road in the piccy below. Does the right lane look smoother? :) It's 60km/h but plenty driving at 100+

Sitting in that right lane even at 80km/h with plenty tour minibuses (in that area) you will have them sniffing your clacker. Extra slow vehicles, scooters etc ride on the far left and stay out of the 2 main lanes.

Makes me laugh on this road seeing cars at 100+ cutting the curves. On a left sweeping curve they start in the right lane and end up in the scooter lane and back out to the right lane lol.

Anyone know of a decent defensive driving course?

Like this?

[Youbloodybeauty]

3 hours ago, JAG said:

Like this?

Haha that would sort out those pesky scooters, maybe a some bazooka's for the minibuses :D

Although, might take the sister-in-law a while to prepare one of those units after the setback this week.

Nose jutting (just) out of Makro carpark and a car hits/scraps by her and he was coming from far and plenty room.

Cost for nose out: 20,000baht damage to other car plus our car 10,000baht.

[dick dasterdly]

It will never be possible to know (far less prove) how many 'bike rider' deaths were a result of their own bad driving - or that of the person driving a four wheeled vehicle.  Nonetheless, it seems likely that more often than not a four wheeled vehicle is involved?

 

A few pissed 'bike riders kill themselves by running into pylons or whatever, but I suspect the vast majority of deaths involve cars and the like.

 

The number of four wheeled vehicles on the road is ever increasing, and therefore the number of 'bike rider deaths is also likely to increase.

[digibum]

On 4/19/2017 at 6:35 PM, Airbagwill said:

If you come off a bike on a race track both your clothing and the track are designed to minimise any ensuing damage.... A major factor  of race tracks is perfect road surface and no trees accompanied by no oncoming traffic and a qualified medical team on permanent alert.. Try finding those conditions on a Thai road.

As for individual anecdotes ...there will be as many of those who died at ultra slow speed as at ultra hi speed..as any scientist will tell you, the plural of anecdote is not data

 

While the absence of curbs and other obstacles does make a track more lay down friendly, whether a qualified medical team is on alert only makes a difference in life threatening situations.  Road rash is generally not life threatening.  Impacts tend to lead to higher fatalities.  

 

The point I was getting at is pure speed has nothing to do with survivability in an incident.  I would much rather be doing 100 mph and lay my bike down in a low side loss of control than going 40 mph head on into a driver turning in front of me.  Will the damage be worse if I impact at 100 mph vs 40 mph, statistically, yes.  

 

So bottom line, speed is not a singular factor to control for.  From a fatality perspective, you're likely to have only a very minimal impact by lowering speed limits because most fatalities are due to impact and you can't realistically lower the speed limit low enough to prevent fatalities due to impact by enough of a margin to make it beneficial to an entire society.  

 

Where speed does play a significant factor in *avoiding* accidents is reaction time and stopping distance.  But bikes tend to have better stopping capabilities than cars so they actually have an advantage.  It's just that once they get hit, what would be a fender bender in a car can kill someone on a bike.  

 

Ultimately, a motorcycle rider who is properly geared up (helmet, protective jacket with armor, pants that can handle 4+ seconds road friction, boots, gloves, etc) drastically, drastically can reduce their chance of death more with defensive driving than modifying any other variable.  If you ride assuming nobody else on the road sees you and that every car on the road is a drunken idiot, you're going to decrease your chance of ever being in an accident enormously.  

 

When I ride my bike I'm 10x more alert than when I drive a car.  At any moment I can tell you how many cars are behind me, where they are relative to me (at my 5 o'clock, etc), and whether or not they're oblivious to me or respecting my space (not driving in my blind spot or tailgating me).  In front of me, I'm constantly sweeping my eyes looking for anybody or anything that could potentially become dangerous.  I'm looking at how people are driving, what they're doing (are they texting?), whether or not they seem unsure when pulling into a turn lane (and might pull back into regular traffic), etc.  

 

So, so many accidents with motorcycles occur when someone turns left (again, in the US) in front of a bike going straight.  They never saw the bike.  My grandmother hit a guy on a bike like that.  If there's even someone in the left turn lane, stopped or rolling, I've already got two or three exit strategies planned out in my mind.  Some people try to make eye contact with the driver.  I look at the wheels on the car.  If they start moving, I start taking evasive action.  

 

But I see all kinds of people zip right through an intersection at 60 mph in a 45 mph zone relying on god and the driving skills of everyone else on the road to keep them safe.  And when luck runs out and some 90 year old lady pulls in front of him and he's being hauled off in an ambulance, people will say, "Oh, he was speeding.  They need to lower the speed limit."  Yeah, that was a contributing factor but he was also not driving defensively which could have avoided the accident in the first place.  He was relying on other drives to abide by the laws of the road instead of taking responsibility into his own hands.  

[digibum]

9 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

It will never be possible to know (far less prove) how many 'bike rider' deaths were a result of their own bad driving - or that of the person driving a four wheeled vehicle.  Nonetheless, it seems likely that more often than not a four wheeled vehicle is involved?

 

A few pissed 'bike riders kill themselves by running into pylons or whatever, but I suspect the vast majority of deaths involve cars and the like.

 

The number of four wheeled vehicles on the road is ever increasing, and therefore the number of 'bike rider deaths is also likely to increase.

 

In the US, 42% of all accidents involving a car and a motorcycle happen at left hand turns.  

 

But to your point about "the vast majority" of deaths involving a car and a bike, only about 56% of motorcyclists road fatalities are the result of a collision between a car and a motorcycle.  While it's still the majority, it's not quite a "vast majority".  25% of motorcycle deaths are caused by the motorcycle hitting a fixed object.  

 

I assume you don't ride.  I think you notice motorcycle accidents more when you ride and you see how many idiots went into a turn too hot and went into a light pole.  My local news always covers traffic fatalities (I guess I'm lucky to love somewhere where there are so few they still are worthy of reporting) and most of the accidents I see in the news are single vehicle accidents.  

 

Not looking to get into a cruiser vs sport bike debate and I know that there are idiots who ride both as well as responsible drivers who ride both, but I see way, way more sport bike accidents than cruiser accidents.  Some of that by virtue of there being more sports bikes on the road than Harley's but I also believe that people ride bikes differently.  

 

But there's a 95% chance that if someone blows by me in a business district doing 70mph in a 45mph zone, it's a sports bike.  Or on the highway, I'll be doing 70mph and someone will zip past so fast (I can only estimate 100+ mph) it looks like I'm standing still, and 95% of the time it's a sports bike.  

 

Go on Youtube and you can watch hundreds of videos of guys on sports bikes riding wheelies down city streets or on the highways.  Guys who like to stand on their seats at 70mph or turn around and ride backwards to show off to their buddies.  

 

And statistics somewhat prove what I'm saying as super sport bikes have 4x the number of the fatalities of other types of bikes.  

 

The point is that cruisers tend to be ridden by older, presumably more experienced, riders.  Sports bikes tend to be favored by younger, and thus less experienced, riders.  When you combine that with the explosive speed of sports bikes and the risk acceptance of younger people, you're going to get more accidents.  

 

Note:  I'm not saying that a 26 year old sport bike rider can't have more motorcycle miles than a 50 year old Harley rider going through a midlife crisis but the 50 year old has probably been operating some sort of vehicle for more years than the 26 year old has even been alive.  

 

Which goes back to my previous response that defensive driving plays a much bigger factor in road fatalities than nearly any other variable.  

 

[Destiny1990]

3 hours ago, digibum said:

 

While the absence of curbs and other obstacles does make a track more lay down friendly, whether a qualified medical team is on alert only makes a difference in life threatening situations.  Road rash is generally not life threatening.  Impacts tend to lead to higher fatalities.  

 

The point I was getting at is pure speed has nothing to do with survivability in an incident.  I would much rather be doing 100 mph and lay my bike down in a low side loss of control than going 40 mph head on into a driver turning in front of me.  Will the damage be worse if I impact at 100 mph vs 40 mph, statistically, yes.  

 

So bottom line, speed is not a singular factor to control for.  From a fatality perspective, you're likely to have only a very minimal impact by lowering speed limits because most fatalities are due to impact and you can't realistically lower the speed limit low enough to prevent fatalities due to impact by enough of a margin to make it beneficial to an entire society.  

 

Where speed does play a significant factor in *avoiding* accidents is reaction time and stopping distance.  But bikes tend to have better stopping capabilities than cars so they actually have an advantage.  It's just that once they get hit, what would be a fender bender in a car can kill someone on a bike.  

 

Ultimately, a motorcycle rider who is properly geared up (helmet, protective jacket with armor, pants that can handle 4+ seconds road friction, boots, gloves, etc) drastically, drastically can reduce their chance of death more with defensive driving than modifying any other variable.  If you ride assuming nobody else on the road sees you and that every car on the road is a drunken idiot, you're going to decrease your chance of ever being in an accident enormously.  

 

When I ride my bike I'm 10x more alert than when I drive a car.  At any moment I can tell you how many cars are behind me, where they are relative to me (at my 5 o'clock, etc), and whether or not they're oblivious to me or respecting my space (not driving in my blind spot or tailgating me).  In front of me, I'm constantly sweeping my eyes looking for anybody or anything that could potentially become dangerous.  I'm looking at how people are driving, what they're doing (are they texting?), whether or not they seem unsure when pulling into a turn lane (and might pull back into regular traffic), etc.  

 

So, so many accidents with motorcycles occur when someone turns left (again, in the US) in front of a bike going straight.  They never saw the bike.  My grandmother hit a guy on a bike like that.  If there's even someone in the left turn lane, stopped or rolling, I've already got two or three exit strategies planned out in my mind.  Some people try to make eye contact with the driver.  I look at the wheels on the car.  If they start moving, I start taking evasive action.  

 

But I see all kinds of people zip right through an intersection at 60 mph in a 45 mph zone relying on god and the driving skills of everyone else on the road to keep them safe.  And when luck runs out and some 90 year old lady pulls in front of him and he's being hauled off in an ambulance, people will say, "Oh, he was speeding.  They need to lower the speed limit."  Yeah, that was a contributing factor but he was also not driving defensively which could have avoided the accident in the first place.  He was relying on other drives to abide by the laws of the road instead of taking responsibility into his own hands.  

Often a bike speeds and than slides over to the upcoming vehicles from the other lane or the vehicles from behind ran over him ..but yes its about the right helmet haha!!