Evaporation or leak?

[ChomDo]

I was wondering what is an acceptable water level drop per day in these weather conditions (Bangkok area). I've been reading online about the topic but the guidelines are for different weather conditions. Currently my pool's water level drops about 0.5 cm per day. Is this just normal or could there be a leak?

 

 

[jak2002003]

Sounds normal.  You will know if something is wrong if you start getting higher water bills than usual.

[carlyai]

I saw on another post, about the bucket test.
Think I've got this right, but maybe you should check further.
You float a bucket in your pool with the water level of the bucket and pool the same. If the bucket and pool water levels stay the same over a few days (week?), then it is evaporation. If they are different, then pool leak.

Sent from my SM-J700F using Tapatalk

[grollies]

Is the pool in shade or full sunlight?

 

Carlyai is right with the bucket test except you place it on a step, not float it.

[ChomDo]

2 hours ago, jak2002003 said:

Sounds normal.  You will know if something is wrong if you start getting higher water bills than usual.

Actually my pool is only 5.7 cubic metres so the 0.5 cm doesn't really show on the water bill. Last month I emptied and filled the pool up 2 times and had less than 100b extra on my water bill. 

[ChomDo]

I did the bucket test last week but I did't get a very accurate reading out of that since it's a question of just millimetres. The pool is not shaded and it gets direct sun from 8am until 3pm. Past few days have been sunny and hot but even when it was cloudy it did go down on average 0.5 cm per day.

[jak2002003]

3 hours ago, ChomDo said:

Actually my pool is only 5.7 cubic metres so the 0.5 cm doesn't really show on the water bill. Last month I emptied and filled the pool up 2 times and had less than 100b extra on my water bill. 

That's cheap for sure.... so even if it is leaking a bit you don't need to worry about the cost of water lol.

 

 

[sappersrest]

Sounds like evaporation.

 

remember every time you get in and out of the pool you take water out on the body swimmers etc.

Good luck hope its not a leak.

 

[grollies]

Before I built my pool I checked the rate of evaporation by placing a bowl of water, fenced so the dogs didn't drink it, and checked the rate in full sun.

 

Just checked my construction notes and lost 8mm in 24 hours. Windy day, full sun.

 

So, yeah, probably evaporation.

 

Edit: Pool is 90% in shade, surrounded by walls and hedge and I top up around 10mm every couple of weeks.

Edited April 16, 2017 by grollies

[ChomDo]

Thanks for all the advice. I hope it's just evaporation but I want to be sure because the pool was just built. The company that built the pool suspected that there could be a leak in the return pipe. They did a test by emptying the pool and putting extension pipes in the return pipes and filled them with water to see if the level inside the pipe would go down. The water level in the pipes did go down 5-10cm in a day which suggests that there could be minimal leaking somewhere. Luckily we haven't paid the last 20 % of the pool construction yet. They said that just to be sure (leak or not) they can block the return holes to the pool and replace them with new pipes and 2 new holes in the pool wall (for return pipes). 

 

I'm just wondering should I go trough that process if the water level now drops only 0.5-0.8 cm per day (kind of within the acceptable evaporation rate from what I understand).   

 

 

[grollies]

10 minutes ago, ChomDo said:

Thanks for all the advice. I hope it's just evaporation but I want to be sure because the pool was just built. The company that built the pool suspected that there could be a leak in the return pipe. They did a test by emptying the pool and putting extension pipes in the return pipes and filled them with water to see if the level inside the pipe would go down. The water level in the pipes did go down 5-10cm in a day which suggests that there could be minimal leaking somewhere. Luckily we haven't paid the last 20 % of the pool construction yet. They said that just to be sure (leak or not) they can block the return holes to the pool and replace them with new pipes and 2 new holes in the pool wall (for return pipes). 

 

I'm just wondering should I go trough that process if the water level now drops only 0.5-0.8 cm per day (kind of within the acceptable evaporation rate from what I understand).   

 

 

They need to pressure test the pipes to 1.5 x working pressure. Don't accept a leaking system.

[ChomDo]

1 hour ago, grollies said:

They need to pressure test the pipes to 1.5 x working pressure. Don't accept a leaking system.

What they did was put extension pipes (about 1 meter long pointing straight up out of the pool) up from the return holes and filled the pipes with water and let if stand for 24 hours. Next day we checked and the water level in this vertical pipe had gone down by 5-10 cm. I've read about the pressure test but what they did was not an actual pressure test. 

 

Of course we are not paying the remaining sum before we're absolutely sure there is no leak.  

[grollies]

19 hours ago, ChomDo said:

What they did was put extension pipes (about 1 meter long pointing straight up out of the pool) up from the return holes and filled the pipes with water and let if stand for 24 hours. Next day we checked and the water level in this vertical pipe had gone down by 5-10 cm. I've read about the pressure test but what they did was not an actual pressure test. 

 

Of course we are not paying the remaining sum before we're absolutely sure there is no leak.  

OK, the trouble with that is the water temperature. If they filled with warm water and your pipes are buried the water will cool, contract and the level will drop, possibly that much.

 

You need physical isolation (not valves, these may by-pass) at both ends and pressurize to say 1.5 barg.

 

With plastic pipe you need to frequently re-pressurize as initially (first few hours) the pipe will stretch with resulting pressure drop. After a few re-pressurizes the pressure should stabilize.

 

Then take pressure readings every 5 minutes over an hour.

 

If any pressure drop is linear you have a leak. If it drops and then levels off its air/pipe stretch and the test is OK.

 

Hope that makes sense.

[ChomDo]

Well I went out of town for a few days and closed all the pumps and systems. The water level went down 1 cm per day so it has to be a leak somewhere. We kind of lost trust in the pool company already so I suppose we won't pay the remaining balance and let another company fix it later. I've already asked a few pool constructors and the cost of closing the pipes and making new ones is about the same what we have left to pay the company who built my pool. As the leak is just one 1cm per day I won't rush with it now since it took them a frustrating 2 months to build the pool so I just want to relax and enjoy it for a while first. 

[ChomDo]

Just want to ask as a separate question. Does anyone know how it's possible that my pool outlet is still shooting peaces of concrete 2 months after the pool was constructed. In the beginning (the first few times the pumps were running) the outlet holes were full of concrete peaces and the pool guys took the while covers and flushed the pipes for as long as all the crap and concrete from construction came out. I thought it shouldn't even happen in the beginning but seems like they somehow managed to drop concrete into the pipes even though they did close the ends with plastic during construction.

 

Anyway yesterday I was wondering why the pool pump is not working normally (lots of air in under the pump cover). Checked the outlets and the other one was pushing in hardly any water. Then I realised there was a big chuck of concrete stuck in the hole. It was just big enough to block the whole hole. I managed to pull it out and then the pump was back to normal.

 

Just can't understand how is it possible that large concrete chunk got into the pipe that's been running for 2 months now (8 hours a day). I mean I can't believe that it was always in the pipe and didn't flush out earlier.

 

Any ideas how this is possible??

[grollies]

1 minute ago, ChomDo said:

Just want to ask as a separate question. Does anyone know how it's possible that my pool outlet is still shooting peaces of concrete 2 months after the pool was constructed. In the beginning (the first few times the pumps were running) the outlet holes were full of concrete peaces and the pool guys took the while covers and flushed the pipes for as long as all the crap and concrete from construction came out. I thought it shouldn't even happen in the beginning but seems like they somehow managed to drop concrete into the pipes even though they did close the ends with plastic during construction.

 

Anyway yesterday I was wondering why the pool pump is not working normally (lots of air in under the pump cover). Checked the outlets and the other one was pushing in hardly any water. Then I realised there was a big chuck of concrete stuck in the hole. It was just big enough to block the whole hole. I managed to pull it out and then the pump was back to normal.

 

Just can't understand how is it possible that large concrete chunk got into the pipe that's been running for 2 months now (8 hours a day). I mean I can't believe that it was always in the pipe and didn't flush out earlier.

 

Any ideas how this is possible??

Yep, crap builders.

 

I tested, cleaned and commissioned the channel tunnel cooling water pipes. After we had thoroughly cleaned them and someone decided it would be a good idea to leave the pipe ends open at the bottom of the Alimak lift shaft. I watched one shift change as a couple of hundred chaps thought it great fun to chuck stones up to see how much noise it made.

 

TML wondered why their filters were getting smashed up on a weekly basis.

 

We ended up installing temporary monster filter skid at Shakespear Cliff and leaving it flushing through for 6 months to clear the stone out.

 

Clean construction is vital using temporary cap ends. Did anyone get sacked off your job? Sabotage whilst not a regular thing, is not unheard of. Or some jealous builder doing it out of spite because you are farang.

 

You fixed your problem, just keep an eye on it.

[ChomDo]

The owner of the company sacked many of their teams off the project during the process. It's a very long story but we had 4 different teams from the same company constructing our pool (it took them over 2 months to complete our 2x3 m pool by the way). Finally we sacked the whole company and didn't pay the last 30 % for other reasons! We never had an issue with the teams and we were watching after them all the time so hardly any vandalism.

 

In any case if there still was a chunk of concrete in the pipe how could it have been there for 2 months and come out now?? I mean to me it seems like the only option is that it came in there from the outside of the pipe now but that can't be possible either.   

[Naam]

Quote

ChomDo said:

Actually my pool is only 5.7 cubic metres

are you sure you are talking about a pool? what are the measurements of this pool pray tell?

[janclaes47]

On 4/15/2017 at 11:11 AM, ChomDo said:

Currently my pool's water level drops about 0.5 cm per day. Is this just normal

 

I think 0.5 cm indicates that your pool is in the shadow most part of the day, because for a tropical country that is very little.

[ChomDo]

It's a concrete pool/jacuzzi with a waterfall wall, very small yes 2x3 meters (not for swimming). And the water level goes down 1 cm per day.

 

Anyway this is all off the point now. I'm asking if someone would have an idea how peaces of concrete get into the pipe and stuck in the pool outlet? I still can't figure out how it's possible considering what I explained above?  

[Naam]

3 hours ago, ChomDo said:

It's a concrete pool/jacuzzi with a waterfall wall, very small yes 2x3 meters (not for swimming). And the water level goes down 1 cm per day.

 

Anyway this is all off the point now. I'm asking if someone would have an idea how peaces of concrete get into the pipe and stuck in the pool outlet? I still can't figure out how it's possible considering what I explained above?  

off point: are you heating your "pool"?

concrete in pipe = sabotage!

[ChomDo]

15 minutes ago, Naam said:

off point: are you heating your "pool"?

concrete in pipe = sabotage!

No not heating it. This time of the year the water temperature stays between 32-34.

 

Even if the concrete was sabotage why would it still come out 2 months later. I mean the pumps have been circulating water for 60 days 8 hours a day. I just don't see how one chunk could come out now. The last day that the pool guys were testing everything we asked them to make sure no more sand or bits of concrete come out of the pipes and they flushed the outlets until nothing came out anymore. Now 2 months later a nasty chunk blocked the outlet, just mysterious to me. Luckily I like to check that the pumps are working smoothly and that there's no air under the pump cover. 

[Crossy]

We are still seeing fairly large chunks coming out of our house plumbing after 5 years.

 

They sit there, barely adhering to the pipe wall just waiting for a slight surge to dislodge them and start them on a mystery tour of the pipework.

 

[ChomDo]

33 minutes ago, Crossy said:

We are still seeing fairly large chunks coming out of our house plumbing after 5 years.

 

They sit there, barely adhering to the pipe wall just waiting for a slight surge to dislodge them and start them on a mystery tour of the pipework.

 

Oh really. I just didn't imagine that the pieces could be stuck in the pipe wall and not come out with that water pressure. I had the impression that whatever is in the pipe would flush out during the fist few days.

 

I hope there aren't any bigger chunks still to come as the last one now was about the size of the outlet hole (the small hole in the outlets white plastic ring).

[Crossy]

1 minute ago, ChomDo said:

I hope there aren't any bigger chunks still to come as the last one now was about the size of the outlet hole (the small hole in the outlets white plastic ring).

 

I wouldn't bet on it

 

That big bit was likely caught at a bend or diameter change, gradually eroding in the water flow until it was small enough to carry on with its trip.

 

I just clean the taps out when the flow gets too small, always bits in there much bigger than the filters should be letting through.

 

[Naam]

1 hour ago, Crossy said:

We are still seeing fairly large chunks coming out of our house plumbing after 5 years.

 

They sit there, barely adhering to the pipe wall just waiting for a slight surge to dislodge them and start them on a mystery tour of the pipework.

 

i would like to hear one rational explanation how chunks of whatever matter gets into pipes. This Is Thailand?

[Crossy]

2 minutes ago, Naam said:

This Is Thailand?

 

That is the rational explanation

 

I'm assuming the big bits got in during construction, mischievous workers, badly / not plugged ends etc etc. Most of the bits we find seem to be render type material.

 

If you think a few bits of concrete is bad, how about this. Recounted by a mate who used to commission power stations:-

 

Apparently one of the first tests required when steaming the system for the first time is a low-pressure blow-through. In this particular case the exhaust was high up on the building wall. During the test the steam pressure rose to 15-20 psi well above the 5 or 6 they were expecting, there also seemed to be rather too little steam exiting the exhaust. Whilst trying to work out where the obvious blockage was located there was a loud bang from the exhaust as a, somewhat distorted, hard-hat was blasted out. There was no name on the hat so it was never discovered if its owner was still somewhere in the steam system or had simply dropped his hat down an open pipe.

[janclaes47]

1 hour ago, Crossy said:

We are still seeing fairly large chunks coming out of our house plumbing after 5 years.

 

They sit there, barely adhering to the pipe wall just waiting for a slight surge to dislodge them and start them on a mystery tour of the pipework.

 

I agree with you, you're not alone

 

I had an identical problem with the air and water supply lines to my jacuzzi. The air line was so clogged that the Hayward Silencer would cut off because it overheated. Took quite some effort to get them cleaned out.

 

Reason is because they don't top of the lines during construction.

 

My shower heads in the beginning regularly clogged up, and each time I would find parts of bricks or concrete in them.

[ChomDo]

15 hours ago, janclaes47 said:

 

I think 0.5 cm indicates that your pool is in the shadow most part of the day, because for a tropical country that is very little.

Forgot to reply to this. My pool is in the sun from 8am until 3pm and the water level drops just about 1cm per day. You think a pool in the shade can evaporate 0,5cm per day? I mean I'm not disagreeing but sounds like a lot for a pool that's in the shade. I still can't believe my pool looses 1cm per day due to just evaporation. Also being in a tropical country means high humidity, which should decrease the evaporation (it's been 50-60% humidity in the day and maybe 80% in the night). 

[janclaes47]

2 minutes ago, ChomDo said:

Forgot to reply to this. My pool is in the sun from 8am until 3pm and the water level drops just about 1cm per day. You think a pool in the shade can evaporate 0,5cm per day? I mean I'm not disagreeing but sounds like a lot for a pool that's in the shade. I still can't believe my pool looses 1cm per day due to just evaporation. Also being in a tropical country means high humidity, which should decrease the evaporation (it's been 50-60% humidity in the day and maybe 80% in the night). 

 

Keep in mind that you are now in the hottest months of the year.

 

May be you should listen to what experts have to say about this, and they are talking about average countries, not thos where it's 35° most part of the year.

 

https://www.angieslist.com/articles/pool-level-dropping-it-leak-or-evaporation.htm

 

Our experience shows that a pool with no heater and no waterfalls or water features can lose as much as a quarter inch per day, averaged over several days. That’s more than one and a half inches in a week.