ATM fees on the rise

[naboo]

1 hour ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Needless to say, 3-4 days passed and nothing had been canceled or credited back to the debit card I used to pay for our breakfast. So I went back to the same hotel, sat around a bit waiting for the manager, who finally showed up after 15 minutes or so.  Apologized for not having run the credit, but she claimed their payment system would take up to 30 days to process the refund. And she didn't think I'd be happy about that, so she did nothing, perhaps thinking I'd eventually come back, which I did. Whereupon, she handed me 500+ baht in cash as a refund for the first wrong DCC charge, and apologized again.  All in all, a lot of hassle and annoyance for a correcting 500+ baht breakfast bill.

 

Better to try to get it right, the first time.

 

 

In that case, hit them where it hurts. Contest the first transaction when your credit card bill arrived. The hotel will need to show proof you signed for both transactions, which they won't be able to do. Double refund!

 

Companies who do this need to be put off doing it.

[Bikeman93]

The solution is to bring your own currency here. The change booths offer a much better exchange rate than the banks will through less commission ( less than 5% as opposed to in excess of 10) , this eclipses the 220 baht fee.

In addition you can select smaller denominations instead of those damn 1000 baht notes.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

27 minutes ago, Bikeman93 said:

The solution is to bring your own currency here. The change booths offer a much better exchange rate than the banks will through less commission ( less than 5% as opposed to in excess of 10) , this eclipses the 220 baht fee.

In addition you can select smaller denominations instead of those damn 1000 baht notes.

That's not really going to work for retirees who live here full-time, but whose sources of income come from their home countries, since most don't travel back to their home countries often/regularly. And many folks likely wouldn't feel especially comfortable on long international flights and travel carrying around lots of home country paper currency.

 

And as for the 220 baht Thai ATM fee on foreign card withdrawals, it's only an issue if your card issuing bank doesn't reimburse that kind of fee charged by other banks. Or, if you can't avoid it entirely by instead doing counter withdrawals using a foreign debit card, which usually will have no fee on the Thai end.

 

A lot depends on just how good, or bad, the banking policies and customer incentives are in your home country. Some countries have lots of banking options for their citizens. Others, members here have reported, either have very few or, like Thailand, numerous banks but uniform fees and charges from bank to bank due to a lack of meaningful market competition.

[Bikeman93]

Just now, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

That's not really going to work for retirees who live here full-time, but whose sources of income come from their home countries, since most don't travel back to their home countries often/regularly. And many folks likely wouldn't feel especially comfortable on long international flights and travel carrying around lots of home country paper currency.

 

And as for the 220 baht Thai ATM fee on foreign card withdrawals, it's only an issue if your card issuing bank doesn't reimburse that kind of fee charged by other banks. Or, if you can't avoid it entirely by instead doing counter withdrawals using a foreign debit card, which usually will have no fee on the Thai end.

 

A lot depends on just how good, or bad, the banking policies and customer incentives are in your home country. Some countries have lots of banking options for their citizens. Others, members here have reported, either have very few or, like Thailand, numerous banks but uniform fees and charges from bank to bank due to a lack of meaningful market competition.

So then you are also losing interest as well, the banks I checked don't offer any real interest at all. 20,000 could earn you 9% interest in some foreign banks, assuming you spend that much in a year that's about a grand after taking into account capital depletion.   

 

Damn banks are a complete rip-off and I try everything in my power to avoid them. Customers collectively continuing to pay these fees is a signal to them that the rip-off is not just acceptable but has room for increases.

Edited May 10, 2017 by Bikeman93
Addition

[Langsuan Man]

9 hours ago, Bikeman93 said:

20,000 could earn you 9% interest in some foreign banks,

Please list them so I can transfer lots of money to them, haven't gotten more than 1.01% interest since the banking crisis of 2008 

[Bikeman93]

Just now, Langsuan Man said:

Please list them so I can transfer lots of money to them, haven't gotten more than 1.01% interest since the banking crisis of 2008 

Google search "international term deposit rates" then go to the country itself you will find the rates are 2% higher than those quoted when you are on the ground.

Cambodia is offering 8.5pa for USD deposits for those with business visa. Paid monthly.

1.01% must be US or something, try developing nations. 

[Langsuan Man]

22 minutes ago, Bikeman93 said:

try developing nations.

[Bikeman93]

I don't see whats funny about this, I've been getting 9% since 2012 (when AUD/USD was on par) and just reinvested 5 more for same rate, effectively returning 14% with currency fluctuation taken into account. I then withdrawal the interest when I go for a trip and don't pay bank fees.

Highest is Argentina paying 29%, but don't mess with their currency.

Yeah the interest rate reflects the risk but when was the last time you heard of a large national bank going bust?

[robin33]

The first result in google
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bank_failures_in_the_United_States_(2008–present)


Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Tapatalk

[Bikeman93]

They are US banks during the GFC, under developed countries are not impacted as much if at all. These banks were set up to fail holding all the bad debts of their parent banks.

[robin33]

Yes they are us banks. You said "any national bank". Just google. Many banks. Especially from high risk countrys. Have stoped to be here now.


Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Tapatalk

[Bikeman93]

Said "large national bank"

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

16 hours ago, naboo said:

In that case, hit them where it hurts. Contest the first transaction when your credit card bill arrived. The hotel will need to show proof you signed for both transactions, which they won't be able to do. Double refund!

 

Companies who do this need to be put off doing it.

 

The card I used that day to pay for breakfast was a DEBIT card, not a credit card. So, the funds were already debited from my account as soon as the cashier ran my card thru their machine, even though I hadn't and never did physically sign the first charge slip run as a DCC transaction. So, no arriving credit card bill to contest in that kind of a situation. One of the risks that comes with using debit cards. Fortunately, I rarely have that kind of thing happen, and did end up getting my money back. It just took a bit of time and effort on my part.

 

And, this wasn't a situation where I was contesting a charge for a service or goodsthat wasn't provided. Of course, if the merchant had flat out refused to pay me back for double-charging my account (the first DCC charge and then the second correct THB charge), I could and would have contested the debit card charge with my card issuing bank. But fortunately, it didn't need to come to that. And I like to keep my home country bank out of any foreign transaction issues unless absolutely necessary.

 

[oldhippy]

I agree with Johnny that asking that a DCC transaction be undone can give a lot of hassles.

Small businesses may not have the knowledge for it, they are just following the suggestions of their crooked bankers.

As for the cashiers in big businesses.... I realize that they are just following orders, but I have no pity for the owners. And I am on retirement, so I have plenty of time - 555 maybe it is a FACE thing for both sides.

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

8 hours ago, Bikeman93 said:

Said "large national bank"

 

1. I don't think Cambodia, which you mentioned above, has any bank that is both "large" and "national."

 

2. I could be wrong about this, because I've never seriously considered putting any money into a Cambodian bank, but as best as I recall, Cambodia doesn't even have a semblance of a government-guaranteed deposit insurance system, unlike the one in the U.S., or even the untested one that currently exists in Thailand.

[Bikeman93]

Just now, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

1. I don't think Cambodia, which you mentioned above, has any bank that is both "large" and "national."

 

2. I could be wrong about this, because I've never seriously considered putting any money into a Cambodian bank, but as best as I recall, Cambodia doesn't even have a semblance of a government-guaranteed deposit insurance system, unlike the one in the U.S., or even the untested one that currently exists in Thailand.

It doesn't matter about a guarantee, the GFC has shown us that large financials in any country are protected by the government and taxpayers, "Too big to fail", all the smaller banks go bust first. The last one standing takes all the spoils. 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

The lack of government-backed deposit insurance may not matter to you. But it does matter to me, and I suspect, to most other people who might consider making any kind of deposit to a bank in a 3rd world country.

 

[oldhippy]

If a major bank goes bankrupt, where will the government / deposit insurance system get the money from to pay compensation?

That guarantee system was invented only to create trust, but would never work in reality.

 

That being said, I would never trust banks in underdeveloped = corrupt countries.

It is difficult enough to more or less trust banks in western countries.

 

 

[Bikeman93]

Just now, oldhippy said:

If a major bank goes bankrupt, where will the government / deposit insurance system get the money from to pay compensation?

That guarantee system was invented only to create trust, but would never work in reality.

 

That being said, I would never trust banks in underdeveloped = corrupt countries.

It is difficult enough to more or less trust banks in western countries.

 

 

The first paragraph I totally agree with.

Same the second, to the point where the implication that western banks are more trustworthy than others. 

[robin33]

Why would anybody be in stock or bonds if they could risk free get 9 to 29 prc on a bank...
bikeman93 can you explain?


Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Tapatalk

[Bikeman93]

Just now, robin33 said:

Why would anybody be in stock or bonds if they could risk free get 9 to 29 prc on a bank...
bikeman93 can you explain?


Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Tapatalk

Fear? I don't know exactly, but I totally agree with you on that post.

Why do you think?

[Bikeman93]

They in turn lend the money out at 30% (!) to failing foreign businesses to bide them some time until the business is sold. Also medical procedures, apartments, cars etc and keeps the banks in the business of currency exchange and ATM fees.

Get the picture?

[robin33]

Maybe i put it wrong, .. Why would a bank pay you 29,prc if they can Barrow money almost free on the market (if the bank was healthy)

Verstuurd vanaf mijn Moto G (5) Plus met Tapatalk

[Bikeman93]

What market, I am the market.

And they are still making a whopping 21% and ripping me off.

Edited May 11, 2017 by Bikeman93

[Bikeman93]

These are Cambo numbers, Argentina probably charges close to 100% to borrowers.

Although they wont tell you this number upfront , but when you add up loan application fees, compulsory insurance, maybe stuff like stamp duty and other taxes on small loans.

Edited May 11, 2017 by Bikeman93

[Bikeman93]

Banks don't invest directly in the stock much market anymore (they got more sense than that), the stock market is propped up by superannuation (retirement funds) which they then use to keep people working by creating a market crash and forcing people to work longer when the need arises.

[heybruce]

4 hours ago, Bikeman93 said:

It doesn't matter about a guarantee, the GFC has shown us that large financials in any country are protected by the government and taxpayers, "Too big to fail", all the smaller banks go bust first. The last one standing takes all the spoils. 

Depends on how big the deposits are.

 

"Depositors at bailed-out Cyprus' largest bank will lose 47.5% of their savings exceeding 100,000 euros ($132,000), the government said Monday."   https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/07/29/bank-of-cyprus-depositors-lose-savings/2595837/

 

So in Cyprus, in 2013, depositors with more than 100,000 euros took a serious haircut.

 

I don't think the international depositors in Iceland's banks took a technical haircut, but having money locked in the country by capital controls while the currency is plunging would have the same effect.    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008–2011_Icelandic_financial_crisis

 

However there is no guarantee that a Cambodian banking crisis would end in either of these ways.  It could be worse.  Cambodia's government is not as, um, let's say 'advanced', as European governments.

 

Strangely enough, Cyprus didn't even make the Wikipedia list of banking crises since 2000.     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_banking_crises

 

 

Edited May 11, 2017 by heybruce

[Bikeman93]

 

Search finds there are 15,000 banks in the world, I'll take my chances and lower the odds by selecting stronger banks in that country.

A term deposit can still be cashed early by the customer, just lose a few months interest, so if smaller banks go under take the money out. If that's not enough you can pay 1-2% for insurance, not my bag, insurance are worse than the banks (often the same entity).

9% is not especially high, some Cambo banks offer up to 12 but these are the riskier ones.

[robin33]

Well good lucky to you :),

Verstuurd vanaf mijn Moto G (5) Plus met Tapatalk

[lkn]

On 5/10/2017 at 5:22 PM, Bikeman93 said:

The solution is to bring your own currency here. The change booths offer a much better exchange rate than the banks will through less commission ( less than 5% as opposed to in excess of 10) […]

For my last bank transfer, the commission was 0.034% and the rate was 0.076% lower than the day’s average (but higher than the day’s low).

 

So compared to the day’s average rate with no commision, I lost 0.11% on the transfer.

 

Sounds like you’re dealing with rather low amounts to arrive at a 5-10% commission.