How to ask for the usufruct at the land department ?

[JohnnyBKK]

Hello,

 

My ex wife agrees to give me the right to stay legally in the home I paid before.

What is the thai name (thai script if possible) of the usufruct that I need to ask the officers at Hua Hin Land Department ? Anything I need to know ?

 

Thanks

[AJBangkok]

I used a law firm in Hua Hin called chavalit and partners, there is a British woman there called Jane (forgot the last name) took 20 mins at the land office and a few thousand baht. Your wife will need to attend and you will have to sign something that says you don't have a financial interest in the house.

[tutsiwarrior]

+1

 

many land office types have absurd xenophobic proclivities and view any attempt by a falang to register a usufruct as a brazen effort to rip off the national patrimony...my wife got some shit when she went down to register our usufruct but fortunately the lawyer I hired was with her and was firm...this was in Suphanburi about 10 years ago...

 

best to have a lawyer with you at the land office so if folks misbehave you can tell them to stick their attitude where the sun don't shine...

 

 

[Langsuan Man]

18 hours ago, tutsiwarrior said:

many land office types have absurd xenophobic proclivities and view any attempt by a falang to register a usufruct as a brazen effort to rip off the national patrimony...my wife got some shit when she went down to register our usufruct but fortunately the lawyer I hired was with her and was firm...this was in Suphanburi about 10 years ago...

 

I just talked to my Pattaya based lawyer yesterday and he informed me that neither Pattaya Land Office or Satahip Land Office would issue usefruct's or 30 year leases to foreigners anymore

 

When pressed why,  he stated that both offices have been dragged into civil court cases by either Thais or foreigners trying to get out of those agreements so the easiest course was to not get involved in any way,  therefore a complete ban 

[JJJIIIMMM]

my wife and i got a usufruct from hua hin land office. it cost us 10k tea money. no lawyer was present.

 

usufruct in thai is this i believe, but maybe check first as i dont read thai

 

สิทธิสัญญาเก็บเก็บ

[topt]

On ‎27‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 8:52 AM, Langsuan Man said:

 

I just talked to my Pattaya based lawyer yesterday and he informed me that neither Pattaya Land Office or Satahip Land Office would issue usefruct's or 30 year leases to foreigners anymore

 

When pressed why,  he stated that both offices have been dragged into civil court cases by either Thais or foreigners trying to get out of those agreements so the easiest course was to not get involved in any way,  therefore a complete ban 

Why would a foreigner want to get out of it - they would just agree to cancel it? Possibly trying to enforce it I would understand.

 

Would be interesting to here any details available of these cases............

[Destiny1990]

On 4/27/2017 at 8:52 AM, Langsuan Man said:

 

I just talked to my Pattaya based lawyer yesterday and he informed me that neither Pattaya Land Office or Satahip Land Office would issue usefruct's or 30 year leases to foreigners anymore

 

When pressed why,  he stated that both offices have been dragged into civil court cases by either Thais or foreigners trying to get out of those agreements so the easiest course was to not get involved in any way,  therefore a complete ban 

Thats weird ur lawyer is saying that even 30 years leases are of the table?Time to change lawyer

[Langsuan Man]

8 hours ago, topt said:

Why would a foreigner want to get out of it - they would just agree to cancel it? Possibly trying to enforce it I would understand.

 

Would be interesting to here any details available of these cases............

If you read my post my lawyer stated that the prohibition applied to both Thais and Foreigners and his experience is limited to Pattaya and Satahip Land Office.    Posters here at TV think that they are the only ones that are impacted by Land Office policies.  That is not true,  Thais try and obtain unsefruct's and leases also and his comments were in the context of purchases via the company route.  And yes, many Thais purchase via the company route for various reasons, not paying transfer fees is one of the most popular ones

 

5 hours ago, Destiny1990 said:

Thats weird ur lawyer is saying that even 30 years leases are of the table?Time to change lawyer

See my answer above.  Don't shoot the messenger.  I don't need a lease or a usefruct and am only reporting what one lawyer told me, at one particular time.  Your mileage may vary  

[simoh1490]

It's the same all over Thailand, it's down to individual Land Offices whether they will issue them or not. It's not uncommon to find adjacent LO's with totally different rules on this, some will and some wont. BUT, some who say they wont actually will, if the right lawyer is used - such is the case in Chiang Mai at least.

[willi2006]

Khon Kaen land office declined to register a contract for me. But my lawyer asked to get the denial in writing to be able to sue them. The answer: Come again in a few weeks. When we came again the contract was registered without any further discussion for a fee of 85 Baht. My lawyer said the land office does not have any authority to decline registering a contract. They even don't have the right to see the contract. They just got told that the contract is without time limit and there's no monthly payment and thus no tax to be paid. The legality of a contract is up to the lawyers and the courts.

[topt]

2 hours ago, Langsuan Man said:

If you read my post my lawyer stated that the prohibition applied to both Thais and Foreigners and his experience is limited to Pattaya and Satahip Land Office.    Posters here at TV think that they are the only ones that are impacted by Land Office policies.  That is not true,  Thais try and obtain unsefruct's and leases also and his comments were in the context of purchases via the company route.  And yes, many Thais purchase via the company route for various reasons, not paying transfer fees is one of the most popular ones

 

You started your post with -

On ‎27‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 8:52 AM, Langsuan Man said:

he informed me that neither Pattaya Land Office or Satahip Land Office would issue usefruct's or 30 year leases to foreigners anymore

Read my reply again. I was querying why they would have a problem specifically with foreigners trying to get out of those agreements (your words). However I could understand a Thai partner trying to get an usufruct cancelled for example.

 

You also did not mention via the company route in your original posting

[KKr]

Living in the North, there were no issues when registering Usufruct or Superficies.
The cost is rather small, for Superficies about 100 Baht in case no consideration was received.
The Land office has standard contracts, just tell them what exactly you want.

On the web you can find the lawtext with translations.
Thailand Civil and Commercial Code Section 1410 - 1416 for Superficies  and Section 1417-28 for Usufruct.
In case the Law text is not clear to you, better hire a lawyer; or bring a professional bi-lingual real estate broker who should do the job for 1 or 2 K.

Good Luck !

[happylarry]

13 hours ago, willi2006 said:

Khon Kaen land office declined to register a contract for me. But my lawyer asked to get the denial in writing to be able to sue them. The answer: Come again in a few weeks. When we came again the contract was registered without any further discussion for a fee of 85 Baht. My lawyer said the land office does not have any authority to decline registering a contract. They even don't have the right to see the contract. They just got told that the contract is without time limit and there's no monthly payment and thus no tax to be paid. The legality of a contract is up to the lawyers and the courts.

Afraid this is wrong....of course the land office have to see the usufruct paperwork (assuming you are talking about a usufruct of course, as that is what the thread is about)....how else can they write the usufruct on the back of the Chanote title deed....lol

HL

[connda]

How to ask for the usufruct at the land department ?

"How would you like to make an extra 500 THB this afternoon?"  That's a good ice-breaker.

 

Have a good lawyer.  They can be a total pain-in-the-behind to deal with.

[GOLDBUGGY]

What I did was have a lawyer draw up the papers for the Usufruct. It doesn't cost too much. Mine probably cost more than the normal as I have several parcels of land that went with the Usufruct, each needing a legal description. So I had quite a few pages to my Usufruct, and with a lawyer more pages means more money. But in total I think it was around 8,000 Baht.

 

With that document we then headed to the Land Office. What we wanted to do was purchase the property first from the Seller, and then apply the Usufruct right after that. There was no problems at the Land Office (N.E. Udon Thani) and everything went smooth and according to what others have written.

 

What you need to know is that you don't get the Usufruct applied to the Land Title right away. Or at least not in my case. I had to wait about 3 weeks and go back for that. Which just meant picking up a new document from them. I think they first transfer the land to the new owner, then after that add your name to the deed. But for sure it is not complicated and I would get a Lawyer involved at the Land Office unless you need one. I didn't need one.  

[willi2006]

On 30.4.2017 at 10:10 PM, happylarry said:

....how else can they write the usufruct on the back of the Chanote title deed...

How can you write a usufruct or any other contract on the back of a chanot? There's just not enough space. You can only document on the chanot that there's a contract, but not its content. And the civil servants at the land office are no legal experts.

[happylarry]

49 minutes ago, willi2006 said:

How can you write a usufruct or any other contract on the back of a chanot? There's just not enough space. You can only document on the chanot that there's a contract, but not its content. And the civil servants at the land office are no legal experts.

Well you just said it mate....a contract documented on the back of the chanote,,,,what do you think a usufruct is.

Remember we are not talking about the chanote copy that the owner keeps at home but the main title deed in the land office.

Just for my own peace of mind I just checked with my wife who has done many usufructs for clients and they do literally write it on the back of the title deed naming the usufructee.

HL

[kuma]

On 4/30/2017 at 7:05 PM, KKr said:

Living in the North, there were no issues when registering Usufruct or Superficies.
The cost is rather small, for Superficies about 100 Baht in case no consideration was received.
The Land office has standard contracts, just tell them what exactly you want.

On the web you can find the lawtext with translations.
Thailand Civil and Commercial Code Section 1410 - 1416 for Superficies  and Section 1417-28 for Usufruct.
In case the Law text is not clear to you, better hire a lawyer; or bring a professional bi-lingual real estate broker who should do the job for 1 or 2 K.

Good Luck !

Great post with good information KKr, thanks for that.

 

Looking to possibly do this soon, will see what I can find out based on your info above

 

Thanks a bunch!

[watcharacters]

On 4/29/2017 at 9:50 PM, topt said:

Why would a foreigner want to get out of it - they would just agree to cancel it? Possibly trying to enforce it I would understand.

 

Would be interesting to here any details available of these cases............

 

 

I've only read a bit about the Usufruct but I definitely noted that the holder of such an agreement must pay taxes and maintenance on  said property as well as return it in an equal  or better condition at the end of the term.

 

 

Source: Siam Lawyers a forum sponsor.

[topt]

9 hours ago, watcharacters said:

 

 

I've only read a bit about the Usufruct but I definitely noted that the holder of such an agreement must pay taxes and maintenance on  said property as well as return it in an equal  or better condition at the end of the term.

 

 

Source: Siam Lawyers a forum sponsor.

What taxes specifically are you referring to? Why would you not want to maintain it as presumably you have chosen to live there rather than have a rental? If they want out and are leaving the house to whoever then my understanding is there is no problem for the usufruct holder to cancel it - the problem comes if the other party wants the usufruct holder out.

[watcharacters]

On 5/19/2017 at 7:05 PM, topt said:

What taxes specifically are you referring to? Why would you not want to maintain it as presumably you have chosen to live there rather than have a rental? If they want out and are leaving the house to whoever then my understanding is there is no problem for the usufruct holder to cancel it - the problem comes if the other party wants the usufruct holder out.

 

 

Sorry but you'd need to contact the Siam Lawyers for specifics on that.    I read general  information  written on their website for a usufruct and it was posted there as I wrote above.

 

In my brief reading of it all I found the whole thing fraught with issues.   It may be the best option for a falang in Thailand  interested in helping a Missus buy a place but  it left me far from comfortable.    If I ever considered one it would be with open eyes to the idea of only spending what i can afford to lose;    i.e. walk away from.

[JJJIIIMMM]

15 minutes ago, watcharacters said:

 

 

Sorry but you'd need to contact the Siam Lawyers for specifics on that.    I read general  information  written on their website for a usufruct and it was posted there as I wrote above.

 

In my brief reading of it all I found the whole thing fraught with issues.   It may be the best option for a falang in Thailand  interested in helping a Missus buy a place but  it left me far from comfortable.    If I ever considered one it would be with open eyes to the idea of only spending what i can afford to lose;    i.e. walk away from.

 

No taxes to be paid on a usufruct.  once it is issued, it is written on the chanote, single payment at the land office, and that is it

[watcharacters]

11 minutes ago, JJJIIIMMM said:

 

No taxes to be paid on a usufruct.  once it is issued, it is written on the chanote, single payment at the land office, and that is it

 

I wish you could notify the Siam Lawyers they should change the information  they post on their site about usufructs.   They are a  TVF sponsor.

 

And if you have experience with usufructs, perhaps you'd know if one can have one drawn up  merely by funding the construction of a house?

 

 

[JJJIIIMMM]

48 minutes ago, watcharacters said:

 

I wish you could notify the Siam Lawyers they should change the information  they post on their site about usufructs.   They are a  TVF sponsor.

 

And if you have experience with usufructs, perhaps you'd know if one can have one drawn up  merely by funding the construction of a house?

 

 

my usufruct was drawn up through the offer and payment of tea money. some land offices dont require that i believe. some do. the land owner has to agree to of course.

 

who funded the house is irrelevant. the usufruct refers to the land, not the house

[watcharacters]

1 hour ago, JJJIIIMMM said:

my usufruct was drawn up through the offer and payment of tea money. some land offices dont require that i believe. some do. the land owner has to agree to of course.

 

who funded the house is irrelevant. the usufruct refers to the land, not the house

 

 

Thank you for your reply.

 

I surmise it's all up to local interpretation (tea money) as I've read before.

[kimmy]

4 hours ago, JJJIIIMMM said:

 

No taxes to be paid on a usufruct.  once it is issued, it is written on the chanote, single payment at the land office, and that is it

 

Civl code in section 1426 the usufructuary shall, for the duration of the usufruct, bear expenses for the management of the property, pay taxes and duties, and be responsible for interests payable on debts charged upon it. 

 

it is not that you are right or wrong or the info online is right or wrong but in practice you always have to pay some form of tax or duties to the government.... whether it is actually paid or not does not matter, it is always there.. even small amounts that are not always collected by officials.. unless contractually excluded the usufructuary always has to pay tax! 

[tomwct]

The best rule in Thailand, if you can't walk away from it do not buy it or build it! I've been here 14 years and I always obey that rule! You'll always be happy and free here.

[BEVUP]

On 5/21/2017 at 9:55 PM, kimmy said:

 

Civl code in section 1426 the usufructuary shall, for the duration of the usufruct, bear expenses for the management of the property, pay taxes and duties, and be responsible for interests payable on debts charged upon it. 

 

it is not that you are right or wrong or the info online is right or wrong but in practice you always have to pay some form of tax or duties to the government.... whether it is actually paid or not does not matter, it is always there.. even small amounts that are not always collected by officials.. unless contractually excluded the usufructuary always has to pay tax! 

* Bear expenses for the management of the property - Yes sounds right as the Usufrut gives you the right to use the property & states that you shall not degrade it in any way

* Pay taxes & duties - As like above since you have use of the property

* Now here's the contentious issue - Well for starters I think you cannot get a Usufrut on a Mortaged property as it would not belong to the person granting the Usufrut (correct me if im wrong ) - so are you actually talking about interest from unpiad taxes & ect

[happylarry]

I think you need to bear in mind the original reason that they started giving usufructs on properties.

Years ago farmers used to rent the land from unscrupulous landowners and after working all hours to tend the land and the expense of seeding etc. the landowners could then throw the farmers off the land and reap the profits themselves. Well the government then issued the usufructs to the farmers before they started working the land so that they then had the peace of mind that they were working for themselves.

So when reading the fine print of the usufruct rules and regs remember they aren't there for a house and garden but are more aimed at farmland, producing crops for sale therefore generating the taxes etc.

By the way, you are correct, you cannot get a usufruct if the house is mortgaged.

HL

[Langsuan Man]

13 hours ago, happylarry said:

I think you need to bear in mind the original reason that they started giving usufructs on properties.

Years ago farmers used to rent the land from unscrupulous landowners and after working all hours to tend the land and the expense of seeding etc. the landowners could then throw the farmers off the land and reap the profits themselves. Well the government then issued the usufructs to the farmers before they started working the land so that they then had the peace of mind that they were working for themselves.

So when reading the fine print of the usufruct rules and regs remember they aren't there for a house and garden but are more aimed at farmland, producing crops for sale therefore generating the taxes etc.

By the way, you are correct, you cannot get a usufruct if the house is mortgaged.

HL

You are correct, unfortunately farangs here in Thailand think these rules are for them, they are not  

 

Just like buying property in a company name is not designed for foreigners to get around land ownership rules but is designed for Thais to minimize the transfer taxes on land.  Both the usefruct and the company route have just been adopted by foreigners and their lawyers to game the system