Don’t waste coup – reform country, Yingluck tells junta

[Bastos60]

On 5/22/2017 at 7:00 AM, champers said:

The people of Thailand could have voted her out. That's democracy.

Really? Are you serious? Even when they buy the votes?

[Eric Loh]

1 minute ago, Bastos60 said:

Really? Are you serious? Even when they buy the votes?

Really? Is wining an election that easy? Just buying votes? Then surely the Dem Party with their deep pockets elites and wealthy supporters would have done the same and need not conjure up a coup. Seriously give that a thought. 

[champers]

15 minutes ago, Bastos60 said:

Really? Are you serious? Even when they buy the votes?

Democratic system v current system: give me the democracy option. In your home country which would you prefer?

If the democratic system is flawed then repair it. Don't discard it.

[Bastos60]

2 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

Really? Is wining an election that easy? Just buying votes? Then surely the Dem Party with their deep pockets elites and wealthy supporters would have done the same and need not conjure up a coup. Seriously give that a thought. 

That is how you want to go with this discussion. 
Lets not forget about the rice scheme she implemented. Who wants to vote out a government that pay way over the market price for their crops. But at least she didn't buy submarines which aren't necessary. 

[Bastos60]

6 minutes ago, champers said:

Democratic system v current system: give me the democracy option. In your home country which would you prefer?

If the democratic system is flawed then repair it. Don't discard it.

A democratic system can only work if the elected people can be held accountable for their actions. 
But again, if nothing really works like it should, can you really talk about a democratic system?

 

But when politicians are able to go into exile to avoid prosecution, you can not be serious about democracy in Thailand. 

 

[owl sees all]

I think we have to look at this whole debate in different ways.

 

Yin Shin is actually addressing the Military in words and print. The only people I actually saw that physically stood up to them was at that big temple. The Junta can't afford any dissent. They have to crack down to keep everyone believing that what they do is for the good.

 

When the Military fist took charge our local eating place had two posters on the wall. One was a poster of Abbisit  with blood all over his hands had been there for a couple of years. Straight after the coup the other was put up (words in Thai); "It has not gone unnoticed that the people that were killing us are now ruling us". They were taken down within a week; not seen since. In the next village to me they will never forget one of their sons who was killed by a sniper in Bangkok. Always under the surface there is seething and hatred. Suddenly an incident could ignite the gunpowder. Remember the Arab Spring?

 

I'm a staunch democrat but I hope I'm not a blinkered one. The Shins were not perfect and neither the Junta but there is more to bringing a country out of the third world than simply citing 'democracy'. Although that would be a start, the cornerstones of Thailand have to be addressed and reformed.

 

The things I value most are love, truth, honesty, freedom and humour. The integrity for any is severely tested every day in Thailand.

 

 

Edited May 23, 2017 by owl sees all
syntax error

[soalbundy]

2 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

I think we have to look at this whole debate in different ways.

 

Firstly Y Shin is actually standing up to the Military in words and print. The only people I actually see that physically stood up to the military was at that big temple. The Junta can't afford any dissent. They have to crack down to keep everyone believing that what they do is for the good.

 

When the Military fist took charge our local eating place had two posters on the wall. One was a poster of Abbisit  with blood all over his hands had been there for a couple of years. Straight after the coup the other was put up (words in Thai); "It has not gone unnoticed that the people that were killing us are now ruling us". They were taken down within a week; not seen since. In the next village to me they will never forget one of their sons who was killed by a sniper in Bangkok. Always under the surface there is seething and hatred. Suddenly an incident could ignite the gunpowder. Remember the Arab Spring?

 

I'm a staunch democrat but I hope I'm not a blinkered one. The Shins were not perfect and neither the Junta but there is more to bringing a country out of the third world than simply citing 'democracy'. Although that would be a start, the cornerstones of Thailand have to be addressed and reformed.

 

The things I value most are love, truth, honesty, freedom and humour. The integrity for any is severely tested every day in Thailand.

 

 

You have to be able to afford integrity

[Eric Loh]

20 minutes ago, Bastos60 said:

That is how you want to go with this discussion. 
Lets not forget about the rice scheme she implemented. Who wants to vote out a government that pay way over the market price for their crops. But at least she didn't buy submarines which aren't necessary. 

So you agree that the hype on vote buying has no grounds. All parties pay money and kinds to voters but will not guarantee that they get their votes. 

 

All governments including this junta government have subsidized rice schemes that pay above low market prices so poor farmers will have a decent life. Why you only single out the previous government. You may not know that the Dem Party strong Thailand campaign spent more than the rice scheme but still the party can't win the 2010 election. 

 

PT won because they was able to introduce projects that benefited the marginalized sector of the population mainly in the north and north east; neglected by the establishment for too long.

 

 

[soalbundy]

I don't know what she is talking about, the country has already been 'reformed' beyond all recognition.

[ben2talk]

44 minutes ago, champers said:

Democratic system v current system: give me the democracy option. In your home country which would you prefer?

If the democratic system is flawed then repair it. Don't discard it.

I'm curios if the Junta ever considered setting up regional councils... those councils could be given some powers of self management - and issues could also be put up for a local vote... For example, decisions about public expenditure.

Such local councils could also hold meetings where people could turn up and make suggestions like 'instead of police trying to catch people taking this exit from the road to avoid an unnecessary 12km round trip - is it possible to build a slip-road to alleviate the problem'...

 

You know, use democracy as a revolutionary tool to work with people to improve the Kingdom.

 

At the time of writing this, I'd say NEVER. My son's school just announced a few changes - absolutely ridiculous changes which serve absolutely no apparent purpose. Discussion reveals that nobody else understands them (perhaps ONLY the owner of the school has any idea of the reasons).

 

Dictate. Shoot anyone asking questions, they're just causing trouble.

[Bastos60]

1 minute ago, Eric Loh said:

PT won because they was able to introduce projects that benefited the marginalized sector of the population mainly in the north and north east; neglected by the establishment for too long.

 

 

I am not really saying another party is better.  But in the current system or previous system, smaller parties without the deep pockets won't even gather enough votes to make a dent
in the decision making process. 

 

Well others might have subsidized rice farmers as well, but only the last government failed at it miserably.  But they encouraged farmers to change crops.
I wasn't so much against PT but I do feel concerns when the wealthy get into power and all kind of opportunistic events start occuring.

[Bastos60]

6 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

I don't know what she is talking about, the country has already been 'reformed' beyond all recognition.

 

And it will all change again once a new democratic government is elected.

[soalbundy]

2 minutes ago, Bastos60 said:

 

And it will all change again once a new democratic government is elected.

sort off

[halloween]

16 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

So you agree that the hype on vote buying has no grounds. All parties pay money and kinds to voters but will not guarantee that they get their votes. 

 

All governments including this junta government have subsidized rice schemes that pay above low market prices so poor farmers will have a decent life. Why you only single out the previous government. You may not know that the Dem Party strong Thailand campaign spent more than the rice scheme but still the party can't win the 2010 election. 

 

PT won because they was able to introduce projects that benefited the marginalized sector of the population mainly in the north and north east; neglected by the establishment for too long.

 

 

You continually refer to vote buying on the micro-scale, refusing to admit that PTP's string of unworkable populist policies was vote-buying on the macro. They didn't need deep pockets, they bought the election with other people's money - the people of Thailand.

Can you provide a link to any subsidy anywhere that paid 50% more than current world prices? And they continued that rate even as prices plummeted, encouraging more farmers to grow rice as the losses, and the stockpiles, accumulated; a stockpile that has assured the price stays low.

PTP's policies BOUGHT the voters of low income earners who contribute very little to the economy despite their numbers with taxpayers money that was intended to benefit ALL Thais.

[ben2talk]

16 minutes ago, halloween said:

You continually refer to vote buying on the micro-scale, refusing to admit that PTP's string of unworkable populist policies was vote-buying on the macro. They didn't need deep pockets, they bought the election with other people's money - the people of Thailand.

Can you provide a link to any subsidy anywhere that paid 50% more than current world prices? And they continued that rate even as prices plummeted, encouraging more farmers to grow rice as the losses, and the stockpiles, accumulated; a stockpile that has assured the price stays low.

PTP's policies BOUGHT the voters of low income earners who contribute very little to the economy despite their numbers with taxpayers money that was intended to benefit ALL Thais.

Don't underestimate the power of money. Many of the red-shirt protesters had no idea why we think they came. They came because someone came in a pickup and said 'Jump in, let's go get free somtum in the city and we'll give you 200 baht pocket money too'.

 

Many voters here don't think - it's one of the most powerful arguments against democracy here. The way the schools/education work here enforces blind ignorance.

 

Steal 5000 from his pocket, and make him love you by giving him 20 baht for a bus home. It's hardly rocket science.

[Eric Loh]

25 minutes ago, halloween said:

You continually refer to vote buying on the micro-scale, refusing to admit that PTP's string of unworkable populist policies was vote-buying on the macro. They didn't need deep pockets, they bought the election with other people's money - the people of Thailand.

Can you provide a link to any subsidy anywhere that paid 50% more than current world prices? And they continued that rate even as prices plummeted, encouraging more farmers to grow rice as the losses, and the stockpiles, accumulated; a stockpile that has assured the price stays low.

PTP's policies BOUGHT the voters of low income earners who contribute very little to the economy despite their numbers with taxpayers money that was intended to benefit ALL Thais.

All major parties try to influence voters with tax payers money whether giving directly to voters or through populist policies. The Dem Party did the same. Ahbisit used 117B of tax payer money to send SMS to tens of million of Thais mobile phone. His populist package even give 2,000 B to all Thais that earned less than 15,000B per month. Isn't that buying voters of low income earners too and yet they still can't win an election. Lift off your blinkers. It is more than just populist policies and you know it. 

[halloween]

6 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

All major parties try to influence voters with tax payers money whether giving directly to voters or through populist policies. The Dem Party did the same. Ahbisit used 117B of tax payer money to send SMS to tens of million of Thais mobile phone. His populist package even give 2,000 B to all Thais that earned less than 15,000B per month. Isn't that buying voters of low income earners too and yet they still can't win an election. Lift off your blinkers. It is more than just populist policies and you know it. 

How about a link on that Abhisit claim, and a figure more understandable than 117B? Is that supposed to be "billion"?  if 68,000,000 Thais received a B3 text, how much would that be, assuming there wasn't a bulk discount?

All governments  try to offer policies that voters will like. Not all offer unsustainable and unworkable con jobs like the rice scam, the tablet scam, big increases in the minimum wage, a cheap car, a cheap house, huge pay rises for graduates. any reasonable costing process would have shown them for what they were, pure BS to buy the mugs.

[GarryP]

3 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

All major parties try to influence voters with tax payers money whether giving directly to voters or through populist policies. The Dem Party did the same. Ahbisit used 117B of tax payer money to send SMS to tens of million of Thais mobile phone. His populist package even give 2,000 B to all Thais that earned less than 15,000B per month. Isn't that buying voters of low income earners too and yet they still can't win an election. Lift off your blinkers. It is more than just populist policies and you know it. 

Damn, damn, and double damn. I finally have to agree with you.  It is a hell of a lot more than populist policies. And the vote buying argument was put to bed long ago - it was shown to have no impact. The cat was let out of the bag and refuses to get back in - the people of the provinces, especially in the north and north east, were shown that their votes did matter (much to the chagrin of ruling elite). 

 

The Democrats are absolutely hopeless too. The party needs to totally reform and stop focus purely on its stronghold (stranglehold) provinces. Unless and until it truly starts representing , and is seen and felt to represent, all walks of life, all areas, all demographics, it will never win another election. And they have only themselves to blame. 

[heybruce]

3 hours ago, robblok said:

The bill could be revived and then passed. That was why protests went on. The government let their red terrorist do the dirty work killing people under the protection of the capo led by Charlem. The red supporters forget this.

That old, tired fallback.  Yes, any government can resurrect a bad idea.  Regular elections and freedom of press give elected governments incentives to not do so.

 

What incentives does the junta have to avoid doing something stupid--such as increases in defense spending and unnecessary submarines?

[heybruce]

2 hours ago, Bastos60 said:

Really? Are you serious? Even when they buy the votes?

Really?  Are you serious?  Are you unaware the 2011 election was internationally monitored and declared legitimate?  Are you unaware that the sham referendum that gave Thailand its flawed constitution was not?  Are you unaware that there is zero evidence that vote buying by either side influenced the results of the 2011 election?

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, Bastos60 said:

A democratic system can only work if the elected people can be held accountable for their actions. 
But again, if nothing really works like it should, can you really talk about a democratic system?

 

But when politicians are able to go into exile to avoid prosecution, you can not be serious about democracy in Thailand. 

 

"A democratic system can only work if the elected people can be held accountable for their actions."

 

You mean like by elections?  Like the one the PTP was trying to hold?

 

"But again, if nothing really works like it should, can you really talk about a democratic system?"

 

I've got to agree with that.  So long as the Thai military can stage coups at will and without retribution there will never be a secure democracy in Thailand.

 

"But when politicians are able to go into exile to avoid prosecution, you can not be serious about democracy in Thailand."

 

That happens all over the world.  Do you suggest Thailand start invading countries that deny extradition requests?

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, halloween said:

You continually refer to vote buying on the micro-scale, refusing to admit that PTP's string of unworkable populist policies was vote-buying on the macro. They didn't need deep pockets, they bought the election with other people's money - the people of Thailand.

Can you provide a link to any subsidy anywhere that paid 50% more than current world prices? And they continued that rate even as prices plummeted, encouraging more farmers to grow rice as the losses, and the stockpiles, accumulated; a stockpile that has assured the price stays low.

PTP's policies BOUGHT the voters of low income earners who contribute very little to the economy despite their numbers with taxpayers money that was intended to benefit ALL Thais.

"Can you provide a link to any subsidy anywhere that paid 50% more than current world prices?"

 

I can do much better:

 

"To protect its wildly uncompetitive farmers, Japan has erected one of the world’s highest tariffs: the duty on imported polished rice is 777.7%."  http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21590947-government-abolishes-previously-sacrosanct-agricultural-subsidies-political 

 

That is a purely populist subsidy to buy votes. Do you think Japan would benefit from a coup?

 

One person's populism is another person's legitimate government expense.  And policies that critics call populist are practiced all over the world without being used as a justification for a coup.  Of course only the junta huggers on TV are saying subsidies justified the coup, not even the military is that shameless.

[robblok]

That old, tired fallback.  Yes, any government can resurrect a bad idea.  Regular elections and freedom of press give elected governments incentives to not do so.
 
What incentives does the junta have to avoid doing something stupid--such as increases in defense spending and unnecessary submarines?

So finally you admit it. Good that is why they went on protesting as they knew it would else be revived. All because of Thaksin.

[heybruce]

10 minutes ago, heybruce said:

That old, tired fallback.  Yes, any government can resurrect a bad idea.  Regular elections and freedom of press give elected governments incentives to not do so.

 

What incentives does the junta have to avoid doing something stupid--such as increases in defense spending and unnecessary submarines?

 

2 minutes ago, robblok said:

So finally you admit it. Good that is why they went on protesting as they knew it would else be revived. All because of Thaksin.

Try reading the entire post before you reply. 

[halloween]

1 hour ago, heybruce said:

"Can you provide a link to any subsidy anywhere that paid 50% more than current world prices?"

 

I can do much better:

 

"To protect its wildly uncompetitive farmers, Japan has erected one of the world’s highest tariffs: the duty on imported polished rice is 777.7%."  http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21590947-government-abolishes-previously-sacrosanct-agricultural-subsidies-political 

 

That is a purely populist subsidy to buy votes. Do you think Japan would benefit from a coup?

 

One person's populism is another person's legitimate government expense.  And policies that critics call populist are practiced all over the world without being used as a justification for a coup.  Of course only the junta huggers on TV are saying subsidies justified the coup, not even the military is that shameless.

You don't know the difference between a tariff and a subsidy? There is nothing legitimate about a vote buying exercise that cost the Thai people 20 billion dollars and saddled them with a huge stockpile of degrading commodity. Nor was there anything legitimate about the tablet scam, a huge expense which achieved very little. Or the inflation causing minimum wage hike which caused only inflation. Policies drawn up on the back of a beer mat, probably by Chalerm, with no attempt to get value for money, they were buying an election without any cost to themselves.

[Bastos60]

1 hour ago, heybruce said:

"A democratic system can only work if the elected people can be held accountable for their actions."

 

You mean like by elections?  Like the one the PTP was trying to hold?

 

"But again, if nothing really works like it should, can you really talk about a democratic system?"

 

I've got to agree with that.  So long as the Thai military can stage coups at will and without retribution there will never be a secure democracy in Thailand.

 

"But when politicians are able to go into exile to avoid prosecution, you can not be serious about democracy in Thailand."

 

That happens all over the world.  Do you suggest Thailand start invading countries that deny extradition requests?

1) Nice try turning it into your own narrative. No they need to be held accountable, as in misappropriating funds/materials, abuse of power, fraud, bribery etc......
    Limiting the accountability to the next elections that can be won or lost, that is really short sighted. Politicians should be impeached and prosecuted in any of the mentioned events.
    Even if you use the mailmen from a state owned postal service to build a vacation home.

 

2) I was more thinking along the lines of justice. Look at how Erdogan handled a coup and how it was dealt with in Thailand. I didn't see much opposition, did you?
     But democracy is still far more secure in Thailand then it ever will be in Turkey.

 

3) It doesn't happen all over the world,  only rich and corrupt politicians can afford to go into exile for those reasons. 

[Bastos60]

1 hour ago, heybruce said:

Really?  Are you serious?  Are you unaware the 2011 election was internationally monitored and declared legitimate?  Are you unaware that the sham referendum that gave Thailand its flawed constitution was not?  Are you unaware that there is zero evidence that vote buying by either side influenced the results of the 2011 election?

Serious? As long as nobody is forcing people to vote one way at the ballot box the elections are legitimate. Do you really think there is an elaborate process involved monitoring elections? No gun to the head is sufficient to declare elections legitimate. Don't be so simple minded.

[Eric Loh]

31 minutes ago, halloween said:

You don't know the difference between a tariff and a subsidy? There is nothing legitimate about a vote buying exercise that cost the Thai people 20 billion dollars and saddled them with a huge stockpile of degrading commodity. Nor was there anything legitimate about the tablet scam, a huge expense which achieved very little. Or the inflation causing minimum wage hike which caused only inflation. Policies drawn up on the back of a beer mat, probably by Chalerm, with no attempt to get value for money, they were buying an election without any cost to themselves.

You don't think putting up a high tariff to prevent cheaper import and allow the farmers to continue selling rice at a high price is a not populist policy? 

If rice is degrading 3 years in junta administration, who's to blame. 

No value for money? GDP was 6.4% and revenue collection highest on record in 2012. 

 

[heybruce]

55 minutes ago, halloween said:

You don't know the difference between a tariff and a subsidy? There is nothing legitimate about a vote buying exercise that cost the Thai people 20 billion dollars and saddled them with a huge stockpile of degrading commodity. Nor was there anything legitimate about the tablet scam, a huge expense which achieved very little. Or the inflation causing minimum wage hike which caused only inflation. Policies drawn up on the back of a beer mat, probably by Chalerm, with no attempt to get value for money, they were buying an election without any cost to themselves.

With a tariff you are vote buying with the consumers money by driving up prices, with a subsidy you are vote buying with taxpayers money.  Either way you are vote buying with the money of the countries citizens, but if the voters agree with it politicians will use it. 

 

The PTP's policies were supposed to be judged by the voters in an election.  That's how democracy works. I prefer it, you clearly don't.

[heybruce]

44 minutes ago, Bastos60 said:

1) Nice try turning it into your own narrative. No they need to be held accountable, as in misappropriating funds/materials, abuse of power, fraud, bribery etc......
    Limiting the accountability to the next elections that can be won or lost, that is really short sighted. Politicians should be impeached and prosecuted in any of the mentioned events.
    Even if you use the mailmen from a state owned postal service to build a vacation home.

 

2) I was more thinking along the lines of justice. Look at how Erdogan handled a coup and how it was dealt with in Thailand. I didn't see much opposition, did you?
     But democracy is still far more secure in Thailand then it ever will be in Turkey.

 

3) It doesn't happen all over the world,  only rich and corrupt politicians can afford to go into exile for those reasons. 

"Limiting the accountability to the next elections that can be won or lost, that is really short sighted. Politicians should be impeached and prosecuted in any of the mentioned events."

 

Ok, accountability should come through elections or the courts..  Happy?  However it didn't work that way, democracy was sacrificed in order to prevent an election. 

 

There is no accountability with military rule.  Awfully shortsighted of you to overlook that.

 

I don't see how or why you can compare the attempted coup in Turkey than the successful coup in Thailand.

 

"But democracy is still far more secure in Thailand then it ever will be in Turkey."     

 

What are you smoking?  Since 1932 Thailand has had 13 coups, 20 constitutions, and one Prime Minister that successfully finished a term in elected office.  Get a grip on reality--there is no democracy in Thailand.  Whenever there is an attempt at democracy the military and the elites shut it down.

 

"It doesn't happen all over the world,  only rich and corrupt politicians can afford to go into exile for those reasons. "

 

Yes, that happens all over the world.  If by some miracle an attempt is made to bring the generals in Thailand to justice we can be certain they will also go into a very comfortable exile with no shortage of funds.