British police says responding to serious incident at Manchester Arena

[simple1]

3 minutes ago, Grouse said:

This is the explosive of choice — called the “Mother of Satan”. 

 

 All of its ingredients are easily obtained, and the process of making it is simple and (relatively) stable. In other words, we cannot stop it from happening.

 

Our future is one in which either we hyper-regulate many common chemicals, or we get used to the gentle sound of explosions and the wailing of victims. 

 

To make TATP more difficult to make we MUST make hydrogen peroxide a tightly controlled substance. (Acetone is too ubiquitous - nail varnish remover)

Legislation already enacted...

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/supplying-explosives-precursors/supplying-explosives-precursors-and-poison

[Grouse]

2 minutes ago, simple1 said:

Legislation already enacted...

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/supplying-explosives-precursors/supplying-explosives-precursors-and-poison

Thanks!

 

That's more like you, Simple1, useful factual information. 

 

I wonder how how he obtained the acetone and hydrogen peroxide (30 vol) required.

 

Interesting to see sodium chlorate on the list. As kids we used this weed killer with sugar to blow stuff up!

[vogie]

3 hours ago, 7by7 said:

How about calling someone an apologist for, justifier of, sympathiser with or excuser of terrorists?

 

A tactic much employed by people like you when you have nothing with which to counter an argument.

This has got to be the dumbest post of the year, oh dear I thought even you could come up with something better than this, a post of desperation. If you don't like someone do you find a post from someone else and pin it on them? How about blaming me for the Suez Crisis too? Sad.

[Scott]

I very strongly suggest that posters get back on topic and CEASE will the personal remarks and commentary.  

[stevenl]

10 hours ago, vogie said:

I did not mention security forces, my original post said intelligence officers, should a poster wish to change what what was original written to suit his own personal agenda, that is up to him and not me! And please refrain from personal insults, better still ignore my posts if they bother you so much!

So somebody mentions security forces, you reply referring to intelligence officers, and you refute my reply because 'nobody here has referred to security forces'. You're not making any sense at all, and are just distracting from the real issue here: your post was nonsense.

 

But I'm out of here with you, there really is no point in a discussion with somebody who does not know what he is reacting to.

Edited May 27, 2017 by stevenl

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, stevenl said:

So somebody mentions security forces, you reply referring to intelligence officers, and you refute my reply because 'nobody here has referred to security forces'. You're not making any sense at all, and are just distracting from the real issue here: your post was nonsense.

Have you read what Scott has just posted?

[MaxYakov]

14 minutes ago, Grouse said:

This is the explosive of choice — called the “Mother of Satan”. 

 

 All of its ingredients are easily obtained, and the process of making it is simple and (relatively) stable. In other words, we cannot stop it from happening.

 

Our future is one in which either we hyper-regulate many common chemicals, or we get used to the gentle sound of explosions and the wailing of victims. 

 

To make TATP more difficult to make we MUST make hydrogen peroxide a tightly controlled substance. (Acetone is too ubiquitous - nail varnish remover)

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetone_peroxide

 

Note this can not be detected by airport explosive detectors....

"Our future is one in which either we hyper-regulate many common chemicals, or we get used to the gentle sound of explosions and the wailing of victims."

 

I hope you are as unserious about the false choice as you are the "gentle sounds of explosions" and the "wailing of the victims" - many of which will be deceased or unconcious and cannot. 

[Orton Rd]

13 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 I challenge you to produce one, just one post where I have ever excused, apologised for or in any other way shown sympathy with terrorists, Islamic or otherwise.

 

People like you throw this accusation around a lot; usually when you have run out of arguments and are confounded by facts.

 

But you can never back it up.

 

Produce your evidence; or admit that you are wrong.

From what I have read you are very clever with the wording you use and never ever condemn the causes of terror, which are the violent passages in the Quran and the terrorist actions of the prophet which encourage terror attacks today. He is quoted in the haddith as saying he was victorious by terror, Muslims need to denounce the bad in their scriptures and the conduct of the terrorist prophet, but like you never will.

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, MaxYakov said:

"Our future is one in which either we hyper-regulate many common chemicals, or we get used to the gentle sound of explosions and the wailing of victims."

 

I hope you are as unserious about the false choice as you are the "gentle sounds of explosions" and the "wailing of the victims" - many of which will be deceased or unconcious and cannot. 

That was actually a quote from a third party and should have been in inverted commas ( it was in my post). It is obviously a prosaic understatement by the author. I will look up the reference. 

 

Dont quite understand your point though. Please explain

 

Obviously the chemicals must be regulated and this has indeed been done. I don't see any other choice. (I don't think the penalties for contravening the new regs are harsh enough though)

Edited May 28, 2017 by Grouse
Clarity

[Grouse]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/manchester-attack-georgina-callander-family-government-open-eyes-a7759841.html

 

Yet another tragic story.....

[bert bloggs]

3 hours ago, Grouse said:

Thanks!

 

That's more like you, Simple1, useful factual information. 

 

I wonder how how he obtained the acetone and hydrogen peroxide (30 vol) required.

 

Interesting to see sodium chlorate on the list. As kids we used this weed killer with sugar to blow stuff up!

What you to? we used to put it in a metal tube with jetex fuse(remember that?) sticking out , the things we used to do ,now you would get shot 

[Grouse]

11 minutes ago, bert bloggs said:

What you to? we used to put it in a metal tube with jetex fuse(remember that?) sticking out , the things we used to do ,now you would get shot 

Just imagine walking in to a hardware store at age 13 and buying a 1lb tin of sodium chlorate! Did they think I was going to get rid of weeds on the drive??

[onthesoi]

2 hours ago, Orton Rd said:

From what I have read you are very clever with the wording you use and never ever condemn the causes of terror, which are the violent passages in the Quran and the terrorist actions of the prophet which encourage terror attacks today. He is quoted in the haddith as saying he was victorious by terror, Muslims need to denounce the bad in their scriptures and the conduct of the terrorist prophet, but like you never will.

 

Yes, hes so clever he never actually used the words which apologised or excused terrorism lol ....plenty have condemmed the causes of terror, where we don't agree is the 'he dunnit cos he read it in the koran' that explanation is in complete contradiction of the facts, but it suits the mindet of the small minded Islamaphobes as theirs brain cant cope with real world complexities like the current geopoliticall situation and the stench coming from their own backyards, the fact their country has been bombing the shit out of Muslim countries for the last several decades, its much easier for them to just lay all blame on 'foreigners'.

 

Maybe its us who need to denounce our government's policy which automatically follows the US in every military action, time and time again, no matter how stupid or ill-thought out.

Edited May 28, 2017 by onthesoi

[vogie]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

Just imagine walking in to a hardware store at age 13 and buying a 1lb tin of sodium chlorate! Did they think I was going to get rid of weeds on the drive??

I think we also bought potassium nitrate to mix with it, is this correct?

[Grouse]

Just now, vogie said:

I think we also bought potassium nitrate to mix with it, is this correct?

Just as I would expect from a military bloke; yes it's an essential ingredient for gun powder! ( don't know what other uses it has)

 

Anyway, best get back to the topic before I get the cane!

[Orac]

3 hours ago, Grouse said:

Thanks!

 

That's more like you, Simple1, useful factual information. 

 

I wonder how how he obtained the acetone and hydrogen peroxide (30 vol) required.

 

Interesting to see sodium chlorate on the list. As kids we used this weed killer with sugar to blow stuff up!

 

 

[Grouse]

33 minutes ago, onthesoi said:

 

Yes, hes so clever he never actually used the words which apologised or excused terrorism lol ....plenty have condemmed the causes of terror, where we don't agree is the 'he dunnit cos he read it in the koran' that explanation is in complete contradiction of the facts, but it suits the mindet of the small minded Islamaphobes as theirs brain cant cope with real world complexities like the current geopoliticall situation and the stench coming from their own backyards, the fact their country has been bombing the shit out of Muslim countries for the last several decades, its much easier for them to just lay all blame on 'foreigners'.

 

Maybe its us who need to denounce our government's policy which automatically follows the US in every military action, time and time again, no matter how stupid or ill-thought out.

So, you consider jihadi terrorist attacks are reprisals for UK military action in muslim countries?

 

Which muslim countries are you referring to and which actions in particular?

 

This may help

 

https://dronewars.net/uk-drone-strike-list-2/

 

Edited May 28, 2017 by Grouse

[Caps]

3 hours ago, Orton Rd said:

From what I have read you are very clever with the wording you use and never ever condemn the causes of terror, which are the violent passages in the Quran and the terrorist actions of the prophet which encourage terror attacks today. He is quoted in the haddith as saying he was victorious by terror, Muslims need to denounce the bad in their scriptures and the conduct of the terrorist prophet, but like you never will.

read this

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/violence.aspx

[RickBradford]

Quote

Maybe its us who need to denounce our government's policy which automatically follows the US in every military action, time and time again, no matter how stupid or ill-thought out.

 

This will never get through to you, so for the benefit of others, let me repeat that ISIS has stated publicly that Western military action is a minor part of the reason they hate us and want to kill us.

 

Rather than repeat all their points, let me suggest you read the article "Why We Hate You & Why We Fight You" on page 30 of the 15th issue of the ISIS magazine Dabiq. Here are the first 2 points:

 

1. We hate you, first and foremost, because you are disbelievers; you reject the oneness of Allah ...

2. We hate you because your secular, liberal societies permit the very things that Allah has prohibited while banning many of the things He has permitted ...

 

Item 3 is about us being "atheists" and item 4 talks about mocking the religion. It's not until you get to item 5 that any mention is made of Western military action.

 

It's hard to understand why the "progressive" West seems unable to fathom ISIS's motives, even though ISIS has told us exactly what those motives are. But maybe being wilfully ignorant is a prerequisite for being "progressive". It sure seems that way.

[vogie]

Ex SAS soldier says it as it is.

 

 

 

[simple1]

I suggest a much better analysis of the motivation and goals of ISIS is from The Atlantic, also read the summary of the Management of Savergy, not quoting from the 16th edition of the ISIS propaganda magazine as by the Daily Mirror.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

 

The sister of the killer has claimed he was movivated for the attack by revenge for the coalition bombing of civilians in Syria, strange as the primary killers of civilians in Syria are the Russians and the Assad regime, not the US led coalition.

 

 

[onthesoi]

24 minutes ago, simple1 said:

The sister of the killer has claimed he was movivated for the attack by revenge for the coalition bombing of civilians in Syria, strange as the primary killers of civilians in Syria are the Russians and the Assad regime, not the US led coalition.

Maybe he seen this in the recent news and why he targeted children.

 

At least 106 civilians, including 42 children, have been killed in a series of air strikes by the US-led coalition on an ISIL-held town in eastern Syria, according to a monitoring group.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/05/strikes-kill-106-civilians-mayadeen-170526132541011.html

 

These are the same airstrikes which Trump applauded and called "...a tremendous success".

[Flustered]

9 hours ago, 7by7 said:

As you have failed to answer a single point I made to you in the post of mine you quoted, I see no point in responding to you until you do.

 

Meanwhile, hundreds of thousands of people in the UK today enjoyed both the F.A. and Scottish Cup Finals, an England v South Africa ODI and many other public events without fear. Millions of others have been out in public, and will be again over this holiday weekend.

 

I find it difficult to comprehend that someone who makes claims about his bravery while serving in the armed forces is frightened to do the same.

 

Have you considered seeking help? Maybe Combat Stress can help you with your PTSD anxiety.

 

Hundreds of thousands of people watched a football game and enjoyed themselves without fear of Muslims. What utter crap. Security was massive at these events, the vast majority would have been on the look out for anything suspicious. You are making a mockery of the Manchester tragedy.

 

8 hours ago, Grouse said:

You have deliberately distorted my post by adding your own name in brackets. The "you" was plural and my statement was not aimed at you specifically. That IS against the forum rules.

 

it's is the only way he can divert attention away from the thread subject. he is trying very hard to bait FMs who have a view other than his. Despite the warnings, I wonder how he gets away with it?

[MaxYakov]

6 hours ago, Grouse said:

This is the explosive of choice — called the “Mother of Satan”. 

 

 All of its ingredients are easily obtained, and the process of making it is simple and (relatively) stable. In other words, we cannot stop it from happening.

 

"Our future is one in which either we hyper-regulate many common chemicals, or we get used to the gentle sound of explosions and the wailing of victims. "

 

To make TATP more difficult to make we MUST make hydrogen peroxide a tightly controlled substance. (Acetone is too ubiquitous - nail varnish remover)

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetone_peroxide

 

Note this can not be detected by airport explosive detectors....

 

6 hours ago, MaxYakov said:

"Our future is one in which either we hyper-regulate many common chemicals, or we get used to the gentle sound of explosions and the wailing of victims."

 

I hope you are as unserious about the false choice as you are the "gentle sounds of explosions" and the "wailing of the victims" - many of which will be deceased or unconcious and cannot. 

 

4 hours ago, Grouse said:

That was actually a quote from a third party and should have been in inverted commas ( it was in my post). It is obviously a prosaic understatement by the author. I will look up the reference. 

 

Dont quite understand your point though. Please explain

 

Obviously the chemicals must be regulated and this has indeed been done. I don't see any other choice. (I don't think the penalties for contravening the new regs are harsh enough though)

Sorry, my bad. I really couldn't believe it was your statement, but I didn't see the attribution and it wasn't in italics (good idea) and maybe I was suffering TVFF (Thai Visa Forum Fatigue).

 

Anyway, the third party leaves us only two choices - hyper regulation of chemicals (actually, a totalitarian/police state because, like gun control, the bad guys will get the chemicals) or perpetual attacks using (what I call) IWMDs (Improvised Weapons of Mass Destruction).

 

My point was that there have to be more alternatives to these two. But maybe not. Maybe we'll be in a perpetual war with the suicidal psychopaths.

Edited May 28, 2017 by MaxYakov

[RickBradford]

1 hour ago, simple1 said:

I suggest a much better analysis of the motivation and goals of ISIS is from The Atlantic, also read the summary of the Management of Savergy, not quoting from the 16th edition of the ISIS propaganda magazine as by the Daily Mirror.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

 

The sister of the killer has claimed he was movivated for the attack by revenge for the coalition bombing of civilians in Syria, strange as the primary killers of civilians in Syria are the Russians and the Assad regime, not the US led coalition.

 

 

It's fairly pointless studying an analysis from 2015 when we have the raw information direct from the source in 2016. 

 

The analysis doesn't make any surprising points: we know from ISIS's own propaganda that this is a medieval Islamist sect which hates the modern West and all its values.

 

And what's the Daily Mirror got to do with this? Or the Management of Savergy? Is that some Green renewable scheme?

Edited May 28, 2017 by RickBradford

[Flustered]

1 hour ago, simple1 said:

I suggest a much better analysis of the motivation and goals of ISIS is from The Atlantic, also read the summary of the Management of Savergy, not quoting from the 16th edition of the ISIS propaganda magazine as by the Daily Mirror.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

 

The sister of the killer has claimed he was movivated for the attack by revenge for the coalition bombing of civilians in Syria, strange as the primary killers of civilians in Syria are the Russians and the Assad regime, not the US led coalition.

 

 

Your first link destroys your own arguments about Islam. It suggests that ISIS is a large, growing part of the Islamic movement and we should try to understand it. Therefore, these terrorist attacks by ISIS members are Islamic attacks.

 

Your second point undermines another FMs assertion that there are no apologists on this forum.

 

Sitting at your soapbox typing away at your keys in a suburb in Bradford, you must feel very safe to post trash like this. You insult all of the families of the victims of Manchester.

[AGareth2]

34 minutes ago, MaxYakov said:

Maybe we'll be in a perpetual war with the suicidal psychopaths.

a cancer must be cut out

not palliated

[dick dasterdly]

2 hours ago, RickBradford said:

 

This will never get through to you, so for the benefit of others, let me repeat that ISIS has stated publicly that Western military action is a minor part of the reason they hate us and want to kill us.

 

Rather than repeat all their points, let me suggest you read the article "Why We Hate You & Why We Fight You" on page 30 of the 15th issue of the ISIS magazine Dabiq. Here are the first 2 points:

 

1. We hate you, first and foremost, because you are disbelievers; you reject the oneness of Allah ...

2. We hate you because your secular, liberal societies permit the very things that Allah has prohibited while banning many of the things He has permitted ...

 

Item 3 is about us being "atheists" and item 4 talks about mocking the religion. It's not until you get to item 5 that any mention is made of Western military action.

 

It's hard to understand why the "progressive" West seems unable to fathom ISIS's motives, even though ISIS has told us exactly what those motives are. But maybe being wilfully ignorant is a prerequisite for being "progressive". It sure seems that way.

But it doesn't explain why Brit. or European born moslems turn to terrorism?

 

This case seems a little different insofar as it seems clear that his family were extremists, so less suprising that he became a terrorist - but its unusual to find out that the parents of Brit or European born suicide bombers were extremists?

 

I'm not trying to start an 'argument' here, as I'm the first to condemn the Brit establishment allowing his family into the UK in the first place!  As far as I can make out they entered the country as 'refugees' - fleeing Libya because of their extreme moslem beliefs.....

 

But we need to address why Brit or European born moslems with non-extremist parents turn into terrorists - and attacking communities (most of whom will have had nothing to do with these atrocities), can only result in even more considering themselves under attack and therefore turning to those who are promising to 'fight back'. 

Edited May 28, 2017 by dick dasterdly

[MaxYakov]

 

Quote

-------- snipped 1 unneeded paragraph ---------------
 

Anyway, the third party leaves us only two choices - hyper regulation of chemicals (actually, a totalitarian/police state because, like gun control, the bad guys will get the chemicals) or perpetual attacks using (what I call) IWMDs (Improvised Weapons of Mass Destruction).
 

My point was that there have to be more alternatives to these two. But maybe not. Maybe we'll be in a perpetual war with the suicidal psychopaths.

 

13 minutes ago, AGareth2 said:

a cancer must be cut out

not palliated

Show us your scalpel, Doc.

Edited May 28, 2017 by MaxYakov

[dick dasterdly]

48 minutes ago, MaxYakov said:

 

 

Sorry, my bad. I really couldn't believe it was your statement, but I didn't see the attribution and it wasn't in italics (good idea) and maybe I was suffering TVFF (Thai Visa Forum Fatigue).

 

Anyway, the third party leaves us only two choices - hyper regulation of chemicals (actually, a totalitarian/police state because, like gun control, the bad guys will get the chemicals) or perpetual attacks using (what I call) IWMDs (Improvised Weapons of Mass Destruction).

 

My point was that there have to be more alternatives to these two. But maybe not. Maybe we'll be in a perpetual war with the suicidal psychopaths.

"Maybe we'll be in a perpetual war with the suicidal psychopaths."

 

Funnily enough I thought briefly about the 'psychopath' angle (edit - mainly because I'm convinced there is a frighteningly large percentage of sociopaths in the population!) - but psychopaths enjoy killing others, whilst always ensuring that they are not hurt.  Not the case with suicide bombers.

Edited May 28, 2017 by dick dasterdly