Too late to become a bitcoin millionaire?

[lkn]

4 hours ago, diwata said:

Lately, Japan announced that Bitcoins are to be accepted in more than 260,000 stores in the country […]

I am very curious about how they are going to deal with the transaction delay.

 

When people use a regular debit/credit card, the store gets instant verification of the payment, but with bitcoin, it can take hours for a transaction to get through, and some transactions have to be retried.

 

I suspect that the stores will actually not accept bitcoin per se, but will instead allow customers to top up their payment cards with bitcoins because then the clearing delay is only a problem when the customer deposits money on their card, which is not an issue, because the balance of the card will not increase until the company has confirmed the transaction.

 

[diwata]

1 hour ago, lkn said:

I am very curious about how they are going to deal with the transaction delay.

 

 

Very good question. I found this while Googling:

Satoshi's Response

Instant non-repudiability is not a feature, but it's still much faster than existing systems. Paper cheques can bounce up to a week or two later. Credit card transactions can be contested up to 60 to 180 days later. Bitcoin transactions can be sufficiently irreversible in an hour or two.

That's from this very long discussion: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1a26pa/if_it_takes_15_20_minutes_to_confirm_a/

 

[lkn]

33 minutes ago, diwata said:

Very good question. I found this while Googling:

Satoshi's Response

Instant non-repudiability is not a feature, but it's still much faster than existing systems […] Credit card transactions can be contested up to 60 to 180 days later. Bitcoin transactions can be sufficiently irreversible in an hour or two.

The ability for consumers to reverse a credit card transaction after the purchase seems limited to U.S. credit cards and is hardly a real concern, especially not with PIN and chip, as reversing a transaction with your bank requires you to state a reason, which for a physical purchase is basically limited to “someone else used my stolen card”.

 

So to compare this with Bitcoin transaction delays is a bit ingenious because the Bitcoin transaction delay is a real problem for a physical store who cannot demand that the customer wait until confirmation of the bitcoin transaction has been received, yet if they let the customer leave before the transaction has been confirmed on their end, there is a very real chance that they will never see the money.

 

This is not at all the case with payment cards.

[speedtripler]

5 hours ago, lkn said:

The ability for consumers to reverse a credit card transaction after the purchase seems limited to U.S. credit cards and is hardly a real concern, especially not with PIN and chip, as reversing a transaction with your bank requires you to state a reason, which for a physical purchase is basically limited to “someone else used my stolen card”.

 

So to compare this with Bitcoin transaction delays is a bit ingenious because the Bitcoin transaction delay is a real problem for a physical store who cannot demand that the customer wait until confirmation of the bitcoin transaction has been received, yet if they let the customer leave before the transaction has been confirmed on their end, there is a very real chance that they will never see the money.

 

This is not at all the case with payment cards.

Any customer can be a thief

Whether he walks in the front door of your shop or clicks onto your e-commerce website 

(if he's using a stolen credit card the payment will be reversed as soon as a complaint is made for around 180 days whether he used it in person or online

 

 

Satoshi was actually correct in that btc payment is final and irreversible after it gets confirmed and accepted into the blockchain (that used to be free but now you need to pay about $1.70 and that's rising as demand is outstripping supply)

 

 

[lkn]

1 hour ago, speedtripler said:

Any customer can be a thief […]

Which is why security is regularly improved and a high priority for our current cashless payment systems.

 

Do you not understand the very real problem with accepting a currency where the clerk has to trust the customer that the transaction will be confirmed 1-2 hours after the customer left with their goods? Not only is this system easily exploitable, but even an honest customer may have their transaction end up in limbo and would thus need to redo the transfer (many hours after they left the store).

 

This is why I speculated above that the Japanese announcement is more likely about adding bitcoin as another way to fund your payment card, which can then be used in stores, because that eliminates the problem with unconfirmed transactions.

[lkn]

On 5/31/2017 at 4:34 PM, speedtripler said:

Also worth mentioning though, that Bitcoin address are more  disposable than throwaway  email addresses.... Unlimited  supply and zero cost 1 click creation without identification  so if privacy is an important aspect of your dealings, create a new one for every tx (address reuse is widely discouraged btw)

For some people though this might be easier said than done. If I get all my bitcoins from the same BTC exchange, even if I create new addresses for each transaction, the owners of the bitcoin exchange can follow where all my coins end up.

[chingching]

12 hours ago, lkn said:

For some people though this might be easier said than done. If I get all my bitcoins from the same BTC exchange, even if I create new addresses for each transaction, the owners of the bitcoin exchange can follow where all my coins end up.

This doesn't really make any sense.  Why does the owner of the exchange want to follow your coins?  Depending on your exchange, he already knows at least your email address, and maybe a lot more.  If you withdraw 10 times with 10 different addresses,  he can already be close to 100% sure it was you who did it,  not because of the addresses ( which cannot be reverse linked to each other )  but because you signed in to make the withdrawal, and you likely had to confirm the withdrawal with 2FA,  

[howard ashoul]

All these predictions and analysis here. I tried to go throught these posts, but I can't make any sense of them. All I know is this:

 

In 2014 I bought bitcoins for a 150 000 Baht.

Today they are worth 350 000 Baht.

 

So it's going up for a 3 years. Also more and more services offering payments by bitcoin in these 3 years. I guess it makes sense to hold them. 

 

But I can offer you any deep analysis, all I know is, that it's going up!

[lkn]

3 hours ago, chingching said:

This doesn't really make any sense.  Why does the owner of the exchange want to follow your coins?  Depending on your exchange, he already knows at least your email address, and maybe a lot more.  

You need to read the full thread for why we are discussing this.

 

Someone said that the disadvantage of our current currency system is that transfers can be monitored, to which I replied that the entire transaction graph of bitcoin is public, to which the reply was “use unique addresses”, and that is what my reply was in response to.

 

As for why the bitcoin exchange owner would care: The more likely scenario is that they have a security breach (where data is leaked) or gets subpoenaed by the authorities.

 

My point was basically just that “transactions are not monitored” is not the selling point for bitcoin :)

[Jingthing]

Is there any way to make a leveraged bit coin buy like in the commodities and forex markets? Too high roller for me but curious.

[Gary A]

For sure I don't know what I am talking about so I have no bitcoins. I trust gold far more but that said, I don't have any gold either. I really don't have a lot of faith in the baht or the dollar but at least I can spend dollars and baht without having to use the massively long codes. I can put baht or dollars under my mattress.

 

I do know one guy from Pattaya who is now a millionaire because of bitcoin. He was after me hot and heavy when the bitcoin was $200. When it dropped back down, he was telling me that was the time to buy and he did. He bought heavy. All I can say is that I made nothing but I have lost nothing either.

[ThailandLOS]

51 minutes ago, Gary A said:

For sure I don't know what I am talking about so I have no bitcoins. I trust gold far more but that said, I don't have any gold either. I really don't have a lot of faith in the baht or the dollar but at least I can spend dollars and baht without having to use the massively long codes. I can put baht or dollars under my mattress.

 

I do know one guy from Pattaya who is now a millionaire because of bitcoin. He was after me hot and heavy when the bitcoin was $200. When it dropped back down, he was telling me that was the time to buy and he did. He bought heavy. All I can say is that I made nothing but I have lost nothing either.

Jumping all in into one single asset class is never a good move. On the other hand, doing nothing is equal to watching your cash assets being eaten up by inflation (so you did actually loose if that's what you did).

 

You might be right abt USD short term (see below). But at the end of the day it's still the worlds reserve currency and the one investors escape to when things get nasty (and that will happen again, be sure). A basket of gold, crypto and USD is the probably the best recipe to dodge the next financial crash (which is the bond bubble). If one wants to hold stocks - I would recommend blue chips, companies that are profitable in good & bad times (e.g. Coca Cola, P&G, Microsoft etc). These will - like it or not - never be evaporated.

 

 

Edited June 4, 2017 by ThailandLOS

[chingching]

14 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Is there any way to make a leveraged bit coin buy like in the commodities and forex markets? Too high roller for me but curious.

Several ways,  there is a BTC trust I think in Europe.  and there is another in the states, but the premiums are very high,  something like 100%.  So to "invest" in one BTC , now at the time of writing about 2500 usd, it will cost you 5000 usd.  So it would make no sense for an individual to go that route.  On the other hand, most pension funds and the like are required to invest only in "trusted securities" 

 

[markcm19]

No, bitcoin is still in its infancy and it will be wildly successful or completely fail. It's potential upsides are so huge it's worth allocating a small percentage into it, likely in ten years it will be close to zero, but if not you will be wealthy. $100 a few years ago would be hundreds of thousands now. Scarce assets appreciate against inflationary currencies or die.

[markcm19]

15 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Is there any way to make a leveraged bit coin buy like in the commodities and forex markets? Too high roller for me but curious.

Margin trading is available on a lot of markets, bitfinex and bitmex offer these up to 100x leverage

[likewise]

On ‎5‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 8:51 AM, taiping said:

Jingthing -- As someone who actually has Bitcoins which I bought a few years ago my net cost per Bitcoin is now zero, so I intend to hold on to them, wherever the price goes, at least for now. 

But it's always been a gamble so if you want a small flutter with money you can afford to loose then go ahead.

 

But just to comment on some of the other posts with my 2 satoshies worth . . .

It is not a "pyramid scheme." It's a very interesting mathematical concept which some mainstream financial institutions are looking at.

"other major currencies" do not have gold to back them up. They have the full faith and reputation of governments backing them up (!). At least there's a finite limit of about 21-million to the total number of Bitcoins that can be created, unlike fiat currencies where governments can print the stuff ad infinitum.

I think the Chinese are interested in Bitcoins in order to avoid currency controls, not as an investment.

 

I have no experience in other cryptocurrencies, but for a variety of reasons Erthereum and Ripple look interesting.

However, Bitcoin still maintains the largest market cap.

Sounds to me like sour grapes from the naysayers.

 

 

 

With you here mate, talking about a Ponzi scheme, isn't that what the FED runs by QE-ing each time there's a crisis.

I'm keeping my BTC's as well, there is more upside to come, will there be another crash ? Probably so, I will be buying some more. ETH is good as well to get in.

To the haters, hahah as always....just let them hate  probably all they are good at.

[lkn]

3 hours ago, likewise said:

To the haters, hahah as always....just let them hate  probably all they are good at.

Don’t see any haters in this thread, but definitely a few fanboyz

 

[likewise]

making new highs as I write :)

[ThailandLOS]

12 minutes ago, likewise said:

making new highs as I write :)

Wating with LMT Buy orders way below for the next major drop

[likewise]

not adding either here, just saying that it is making new highs ! My Trezor has got a few on them, safely offline :)

Indeed waiting for a drop, me too.....but it is all a guess how far it will drop, it might as well slowly continue upwards..! We'll see, life is good.

Last one I bought was at 1980$'ish and thought that was high..?? Hmm, at what price to buy more ? Will it drop 25% ? 50 % or just 10%....

Since it is a speculating game nobody knows for sure.

 

 

Edited June 6, 2017 by likewise

[ThailandLOS]

17 minutes ago, likewise said:

not adding either here, just saying that it is making new highs ! My Trezor has got a few on them, safely offline :)

Indeed waiting for a drop, me too.....but it is all a guess how far it will drop, it might as well slowly continue upwards..! We'll see, life is good.

Last one I bought was at 1980$'ish and thought that was high..?? Hmm, at what price to buy more ? Will it drop 25% ? 50 % or just 10%....

Since it is a speculating game nobody knows for sure.

 

 

Just anticipating a rapid significant move down - connected with whatever (rate adjustment, exchange hack etc) those are usually the ones that generate profit. As I'm not day trading this don't care abt the small moves.

 

Another nice feature is that BTC usually leads the other cryptos and can be use as an non-lagging indicator for those - if one wants to look at the short timeframes.

[JimmyJ]

Some of you guys are very patient...

 

 

[speedtripler]

On 2017-6-4 at 1:14 AM, lkn said:

For some people though this might be easier said than done. If I get all my bitcoins from the same BTC exchange, even if I create new addresses for each transaction, the owners of the bitcoin exchange can follow where all my coins end up.

If your that paranoid about it you should use an   untraceable currency like Monero or zcash... 

 

Your bank can see every time and location you use your atm and credit cards and they even have cctv, imagine that.... 

[speedtripler]

On 2017-6-5 at 2:21 PM, lkn said:

Don’t see any haters in this thread, but definitely a few fanboyz

 

Definitely a few people who have a wealth of no idea but feel compelled to share their doomsday prophesys.....  

[Jingthing]

Trouble in bitcoin-paradise?

 

 

Quote

 

Bitcoin Is At An All-Time High, But Is It About To Self-Destruct?

...

But its meteoric rise belies a fact apparent to anyone active in the space: The bitcoin community is at war with itself and at greater risk of splitting apart than ever in its history. Already, the impasse has been a drag on its value.

 

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurashin/2017/06/07/bitcoin-is-at-an-all-time-high-but-is-it-about-to-self-destruct/#23d45a0acb31

[csabo]

Bitcoin bouncing

 

Bitcoin and Ethereum Just Crashed, Taking Coinbase Down With Them
http://fortune.com/2017/06/15/bitcoin-ethereum-price-coinbase-down/
 

Edited June 16, 2017 by csabo

[seancbk]

1 hour ago, csabo said:

Bitcoin bouncing

 

Bitcoin and Ethereum Just Crashed, Taking Coinbase Down With Them
http://fortune.com/2017/06/15/bitcoin-ethereum-price-coinbase-down/
 

 

They went down a bit and now going back up.

There was potential to make even more money by "buying the dip"

 

 

[likewise]

Some people seem to think an asset goes up in a straight line . I bought some more last night around 2100$, we could see prices head lower though......I for one hope so to add some more.

[csabo]

3 hours ago, seancbk said:

 

They went down a bit and now going back up.

There was potential to make even more money by "buying the dip"

 

 

Agreed, buy on lows sell on highs.  Just unnerving when an investment drops 30% in a day and you can't even access your account.  Like always there were winners and losers.

[csabo]

3 hours ago, likewise said:

Some people seem to think an asset goes up in a straight line . I bought some more last night around 2100$, we could see prices head lower though......I for one hope so to add some more.

True, Nothing goes straight up.  That applies to all things in life including any and all types of investments.  Good for you on buying on the dip, most people could not access their accounts.