UK visitor visa

[trigpoint]

My partner applied for UK visitor visa in may. The reason for this is because I go back to the UK every year for 2-3 months to see family and friends and rejigg my finances, renew my non imm O visa, we decided it would be nice for us both to go this year.

Here is a brief background, we have been in a relationship for 8 years, been living together on Thailand for 5 years. She is from Cambodia.She does not have a job as such, she lives with me full time, what I would call a housewife.

She submitted the application with the following evidence as required.

Letter from my sister who said she had been on holiday with us in Thailand and was more than welcome to come and stay her in the UK.

Document from the land register to confirm I own property in the UK where we will be staying.

Original document from the post office savings confirming I have a bond due to mature in July 2017, cash in the tens of thousands..

Print out from Barclays Bank, on the 15 may 2017, 3 accounts totalling tens of thousands.

My partners bank book, Cambodian bank, with about $800 in the account.

Letter from condo building manager to confirm we have lived there for 4 years

Letter from me, her sponsor who will be financing the whole cost of the holiday, stating that we will be flying there together, staying together the whole time and flying back together.

Copy of blue book of my car and green book for my motorcycle to reinforce our return to Thailand.

The length of stay was for 3 months as I usually stay in the UK up to that period of time.

The visa was refused on the grounds,

My sisters letter discounted as no proof of residency in the UK

Only noted that the post office bond was from 22/7/2015. Despite the fact it matures in 22/7/2017, dismissed the maturity date.

No mention of my Barclays Bank statements, only saying they are not satisfied with my up to date financial position, it should be noted I couldn't get any monthly bank statements on internet banking or mobile banking.

To cap it all they said her sole reason for applying​ for a visa was to go to the UK and undertake prohibited activities not permitted on a visitor visa and to rub it in, they said it was highly likely you will not return to Thailand.

This was of course a genuine application for a visitor visa, they seem to have completely dimissed my submission of my sponsorship, and the fact we live together as man and wife, are traveling together there and back.

They also didn't return the 2 letters from sister and building manager, and 3 other documents, paid 85 bht for a sms to say a decision had been made, no sms received.

Where did we/ she go wrong?

 

Sent from my B3-A30 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

[ThaiVisaExpress]

It does sound, from what you say, that the ECO might have missed some of the documentation that you submitted.   I can't say that I have ever seen a refusal reason that says that the applicant might be going to the UK for "prohibited activities".  You should post the refusal notice here, removing all personal details (names, etc) before you do so.  Once you have done that, we might be able to give you advice.

 

Tony M

[oxo1947]

Just about everywhere trigpoint---- lets take another scenario.

 

An older women applies to take her toy-boy  Nigerian boyfriend back to the UK, He doesn't have a job - he doesn't have any savings-- basically  he doesn't have a pot to piss in, other than he has a bank book which is from a different country that he is living in & which says he has a few 100 dollars.. He comes from an impoverished country, & there are no compelling reasons that he wants to go back there (Children/house/ job) other than her saying he will go when she goes back, But its all right as she has a note from her Dad saying they can stay there, without him even including a gas/rates/ or electric bill to prove he even lives there--or even exists.

 

Oh yer & he didn't even apply for the Visa in his home country--but in another 3rd world country that he is now living in....& yes they have a note from a person in this 3rd world country saying the guy has been staying  in her apartment.

 

Don't know how it could all go wrong--

 

Bank accounts can be emptied without it showing in a bank book---A  Bank.Book without bank letter -isn't proof of  funds...(did you not learn that from getting your Thai Visa)

I was in the same room you were in 3 months ago--(Oz shares with the UK) and was quite surprised that a lot of the people did not seem to think they should have ample proof before going there. These people are the kind that will be pushed into taking an agent paying 20K+ for just photo copying and arranging the papers correctly.

 

Advice---3 months is a big ask for a first time Visa---- you usually go back yourself--so I would just ask for a month....unless you are going to miss her to mut

Edited June 10, 2017 by oxo1947

[trigpoint]

Don't know how to send a picture of the report, this is what they say, word for word,
Given​ all the above, I am not satisfied therefore that you intend to leave at the end of your visit, that you will not live in the UK through frequent or successive​ visits, that you are genuinely seeking entry for a purpose that is permitted by the visitor or will not undertake any prohibited activities set out in V 4.5-V 4.10. I am also not satisfied that you have sufficient funds to cover all reasonable costs in relation to their visit with out working or accessing public funds. This means that your application for a visit has been refused under paragraph V4.2( a-(e)


Sent from my B3-A30 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[ThaiVisaExpress]

1 hour ago, trigpoint said:

Don't know how to send a picture of the report, this is what they say, word for word,
Given all the above, I am not satisfied therefore that you intend to leave at the end of your visit, that you will not live in the UK through frequent or successive visits, that you are genuinely seeking entry for a purpose that is permitted by the visitor or will not undertake any prohibited activities set out in V 4.5-V 4.10. I am also not satisfied that you have sufficient funds to cover all reasonable costs in relation to their visit with out working or accessing public funds. This means that your application for a visit has been refused under paragraph V4.2( a-(e)


Sent from my B3-A30 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

 

Okay, the ECO is saying that he is not satisfied that she won't work, study, etc in the UK. That is fairly standard.

 

It does seem to be a strange refusal, given that you say that you live together in Thailand, and you provided evidence of funds. There is no right of appeal, of course. It might be possible to make a complaint about the decision, and if you would like us to look into it for you, then please feel free to contact us. Our details are in the link in our avatar.  Any work we do would be on a no-win, no-fee basis.  Alternatively, you could make a new application, but you will need to address all of the previous reasons for refusal in the new application.

[trigpoint]

Thanks for the advice Tony, Thai Visa Express, it's to late to apply again and will be turned down due to the lack of monthly bank statements. I will try again when I get back from the UK in October for a Visa over Christmas and New year.


Sent from my B3-A30 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[7by7]

20 hours ago, trigpoint said:

Don't know how to send a picture of the report,

If you have a scanner, you can scan it onto your computer and then use the tool at the bottom left of the reply box to attach it to your post.

 

20 hours ago, trigpoint said:

this is what they say, word for word,
Given all the above, I am not satisfied therefore that you intend to leave at the end of your visit, that you will not live in the UK through frequent or successive visits, that you are genuinely seeking entry for a purpose that is permitted by the visitor or will not undertake any prohibited activities set out in V 4.5-V 4.10. I am also not satisfied that you have sufficient funds to cover all reasonable costs in relation to their visit with out working or accessing public funds. This means that your application for a visit has been refused under paragraph V4.2( a-(e)
 

This is standard wording at the end of any refusal; what would really help is if you could tell us what the ECO said in the part they refer to as "given the above"

[darren1971]

I dont understand how they can say he doesn't have the funds

[trigpoint]

21 hours ago, 7by7 said:

If you have a scanner, you can scan it onto your computer and then use the tool at the bottom left of the reply box to attach it to your post.

 

This is standard wording at the end of any refusal; what would really help is if you could tell us what the ECO said in the part they refer to as "given the above"

You state that you have been living with Mr xxx for 5 years and that he is funding the entire trip,. You state that you live in Jomtien but have provided no evidence of your legal residence in Thailand or for Mr xxx. As evidence of his ability to fund your trip, you have provided a statement of account for Mr xxx account with Barclays and a statement of Mr xxx post office savings account. The Barclays statement is dated 16 September 2016 and post office statement 23 July 2015. I am not satisfied therefore that these statements represent an up to date picture of Mr xxx financial circumstance. You state that you are unemployed but have another income but you have provided no evidence ot this with your application. You have provided no other evidence of your personal and financial circumstance in Thailand.

That is word for word of ( lack of funds) paragraph.

[7by7]

1 hour ago, trigpoint said:

You state that you have been living with Mr xxx for 5 years and that he is funding the entire trip,. You state that you live in Jomtien but have provided no evidence of your legal residence in Thailand or for Mr xxx.

As your partner is not Thai, then to satisfy the ECO that she will return to Thailand after her visit she needs to show that she is legally resident in Thailand. The ECO would have had her passport; is there any such evidence in that?

 

Evidence of your immigration status in Thailand helps to strengthen her reason to return; the assumption being that if you return, so will she. Did you provide a copy of your passport to show this?

 

You say

On ‎10‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 10:57 AM, trigpoint said:

Print out from Barclays Bank, on the 15 may 2017, 3 accounts totalling tens of thousands.

They say

1 hour ago, trigpoint said:

The Barclays statement is dated 16 September 2016

Did they miss the later print out, or dismiss it for some other reason.

 

On ‎10‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 10:57 AM, trigpoint said:

, it should be noted I couldn't get any monthly bank statements on internet banking or mobile banking.

 

It should be remembered that although anecdotal evidence suggests that for visit visa applications they do accept print outs of bank statements, the actual rule is that bank statements should be originals or if print outs or copies certified as correct by the issuer.

 

That the Post Office bond matures in July is not much help; the funds need to be available now.

 

I'd be very interested in TVE's take on this.

[darren1971]

9 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

 

It should be remembered that although anecdotal evidence suggests that for visit visa applications they do accept print outs of bank statements, the actual rule is that bank statements should be originals or if print outs or copies certified as correct by the issuer.

 

 

As most banks do paperless statements now are you saying if a sponsor prints out these (online) statements they are not valid? what exactly does 'certified as correct by the issuer.' mean?

[ThaiVisaExpress]

It's difficult to say what has happened.   If the evidence of funds was submitted, then the ECO has messed up, but it becomes a game of "I submitted" against "you didn't submit", and you know who will win that argument.

 

Another point to consider is the ECO's statement that the applicant didn't provide any evidence of her legal status in Thailand.  Wasn't that evidence in her passport, in the form of a visa, entry stamp, extension of stay   ?     If she isn't/wasn't here legally, then there is no way a visa would be issued, but the ECO hasn't said that.

 

A long term bond is not really sufficient for evidence of available funds, unless it can be accessed, or matures, immediately.  But, depending on when you traveling, those funds could be available, of course.

 

It would be interesting to see what was submitted with the application.

 

Tony M

[7by7]

3 minutes ago, darren1971 said:

As most banks do paperless statements now are you saying if a sponsor prints out these (online) statements they are not valid? what exactly does 'certified as correct by the issuer.' mean?

 They are certainly not valid for settlement applications; but, as I said, even though the official guidance says

Quote

All documents must be originals and not photocopies

anecdotal evidence suggests that printouts are acceptable for visit applications. I guess it boils down to whether or not a print out is considered to be an original document!

 

'Certified as correct by the issuer' means that the issuer, e.g. bank, has certified the print out as correct; usually by placing a stamp on each page.

[trigpoint]

13 minutes ago, ThaiVisaExpress said:

It's difficult to say what has happened.   If the evidence of funds was submitted, then the ECO has messed up, but it becomes a game of "I submitted" against "you didn't submit", and you know who will win that argument.

 

Another point to consider is the ECO's statement that the applicant didn't provide any evidence of her legal status in Thailand.  Wasn't that evidence in her passport, in the form of a visa, entry stamp, extension of stay   ?     If she isn't/wasn't here legally, then there is no way a visa would be issued, but the ECO hasn't said that.

 

A long term bond is not really sufficient for evidence of available funds, unless it can be accessed, or matures, immediately.  But, depending on when you traveling, those funds could be available, of course.

 

It would be interesting to see what was submitted with the application.

 

Tony M

Evidence of funds submitted was:

Bank statement dated September 2016,

Print out of 3 separate accounts from Barclays dated 17 may 2017, showing over £30,000.

Original post office savings bond clearly showing start date and maturity date, 24th July 2017.more than £50,000.

The ECO had her passport which had the latest visitor visa for Thailand, visa expires 9 th July 2017.

I only submitted my passport with the personal details, never thought of a copy of my non imm O visa, they never asked for it either or was a question on  application about my status in Thailand.

[ThaiVisaExpress]

The difficulty, if not impossibility, is proving that the evidence of funds was submitted. I don't doubt what you say, as it would not be the first time that an ECO has failed to see submitted documentation. In fact, it's more common than you might think. However, I have never yet seen a response from the Embassy where they admit that the evidence was actually submitted, and was missed by the ECO. 

 

ECOs often refuse visas for information that is "missing", even when there is no requirement for that information to be submitted. On the other hand, it would not be unreasonable for you to have provided that evidence, especially as your partner was relying on you as part of her reasons to return to Thailand. Something to bear in mind for any new application.

 

Tony M

[bobrussell]

I have to admit I have some experience of an ECO deciding that an applicant may participate in 'prohibited activities'. Not at all sure what right they have to make this determination but the visa application was from a Thai citizen, resident in Switzerland and married with two children to a multimillionaire!

On principle I would make a formal complaint to the authorities as this would appear to be defamatory in the extreme.

Your UK resident sister does not have to provide any proof that she is legally resident.

In the new application covering letter it is worthwhile covering this by stating her British passport number (if she has one) or enclosing a copy of the main page.

There is nothing wrong with an applicant being a housewife. Worth enclosing evidence that she is legally living in Thailand. Make it clear that money available is in the Barclays Bank account and instantly available.

From the information given I can see no reason why an application should be anything other than straight forward as long as the paper evidence was adequate.

 

Still would be most miffed at the suggestion that my wife/partner intended to participate in prohibited activities and I would absolutely not let that one go under any circumstances.

[trigpoint]

8 minutes ago, ThaiVisaExpress said:

The difficulty, if not impossibility, is proving that the evidence of funds was submitted. I don't doubt what you say, as it would not be the first time that an ECO has failed to see submitted documentation. In fact, it's more common than you might think. However, I have never yet seen a response from the Embassy where they admit that the evidence was actually submitted, and was missed by the ECO. 

 

ECOs often refuse visas for information that is "missing", even when there is no requirement for that information to be submitted. On the other hand, it would not be unreasonable for you to have provided that evidence, especially as your partner was relying on you as part of her reasons to return to Thailand. Something to bear in mind for any new application.

 

Tony M

Thanks for the advice Tony M, won't be applying for another visa for her until October when I return to Thailand.l won't bother with any letters from my family as it seems they aren't valid without some kind of ID which may have to be original. I will have to get the bank to print me the last 6 months statements. I shall just state reason for visit, spend Christmas and New year with partner in his house. 1 month stay.

[trigpoint]

3 minutes ago, bobrussell said:

I have to admit I have some experience of an ECO deciding that an applicant may participate in 'prohibited activities'. Not at all sure what right they have to make this determination but the visa application was from a Thai citizen, resident in Switzerland and married with two children to a multimillionaire!

On principle I would make a formal complaint to the authorities as this would appear to be defamatory in the extreme.

Your UK resident sister does not have to provide any proof that she is legally resident.

In the new application covering letter it is worthwhile covering this by stating her British passport number (if she has one) or enclosing a copy of the main page.

There is nothing wrong with an applicant being a housewife. Worth enclosing evidence that she is legally living in Thailand. Make it clear that money available is in the Barclays Bank account and instantly available.

From the information given I can see no reason why an application should be anything other than straight forward as long as the paper evidence was adequate.

 

Still would be most miffed at the suggestion that my wife/partner intended to participate in prohibited activities and I would absolutely not let that one go under any circumstances.

We were of course very angry about the (prohibited activities) remark, what actually was he/she infering? Massage parlor work immediately springs to mind, also a bit of bias I suspect as she is Cambodian. I know there's no appeal about the decision, who would I write a letter of complaint to?

[7by7]

44 minutes ago, trigpoint said:

The ECO had her passport which had the latest visitor visa for Thailand, visa expires 9 th July 2017.

 No doubt Tony will correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that UK visit visa applications must be submitted in the country of the applicant's residence.

 

So if her immigration status in Thailand is that of visitor, then that alone is sufficient grounds for refusal.

 

If she is using visit visas to live in Thailand, then it is not surprising that the ECO suspected she may wish to do the same to live in the UK.

[Here It Is]

1 minute ago, trigpoint said:

We were of course very angry about the (prohibited activities) remark, what actually was he/she infering? Massage parlor work immediately springs to mind, also a bit of bias I suspect as she is Cambodian. I know there's no appeal about the decision, who would I write a letter of complaint to?

Has your girlfriend ever applied previously for a visit visa or any other UK visa?

[7by7]

2 minutes ago, trigpoint said:

We were of course very angry about the (prohibited activities) remark, what actually was he/she infering? Massage parlor work immediately springs to mind, also a bit of bias I suspect as she is Cambodian. I know there's no appeal about the decision, who would I write a letter of complaint to?

 'Prohibited activities' simply means any activity prohibited to visitors under the immigration rules. From the guidance

 

Quote

What you can and can’t do

You can:

• take part in any of the business-related activities mentioned in the Visitor Rules
• study for up to 30 days, as long as it’s not the main reason for your visit
• take part in an exchange programme or educational visit (if you’re under 18)
• convert your civil partnership into a marriage

You can’t:

• do paid or unpaid work
• live in the UK for long periods of time through frequent visits
• get public funds
• marry or register a civil partnership, or give notice of marriage or civil partnership

Read the guidance for more information about what you can and can’t do with a Standard Visitor visa.

 

[ThaiVisaExpress]

4 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 No doubt Tony will correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that UK visit visa applications must be submitted in the country of the applicant's residence.

 

So if her immigration status in Thailand is that of visitor, then that alone is sufficient grounds for refusal.

 

If she is using visit visas to live in Thailand, then it is not surprising that the ECO suspected she may wish to do the same to live in the UK.

 

She can apply anywhere for a visit visa, as long as she is legally in that country.  I guess that leads to further questions on this point !

[bobrussell]

Perhaps the "prohibited activities" terminology should be clarified! A little too easy to be overly sensitive regarding "prohibited visa activities" and " activities prohibited in the UK"!!

Point taken that this probably does not mean 'will be joining the local massage parlour'!

[brewsterbudgen]

 No doubt Tony will correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that UK visit visa applications must be submitted in the country of the applicant's residence.
 
So if her immigration status in Thailand is that of visitor, then that alone is sufficient grounds for refusal.
 
If she is using visit visas to live in Thailand, then it is not surprising that the ECO suspected she may wish to do the same to live in the UK.

My then girlfriend (now wife) holds a passport from Laos but had been living in Thailand for many years when she applied for a Visitor visa. Her passport showed evidence of monthly border runs over about 4 years, which she had to do to remain legal in Thailand. She got the visa.

[trigpoint]

28 minutes ago, Here It Is said:

Has your girlfriend ever applied previously for a visit visa or any other UK visa?

No, first time.

[trigpoint]

17 hours ago, darren1971 said:

I dont understand how they can say he doesn't have the funds

I also don't understand why they think my sister is not a UK citizen, did they also assume I was here illegally and my partner and not on any kind of visa?

Did they not believe I would not be returning to Thailand with my partner despite letter from the building manager that I live there and copy of blue book and green book of my ownership of viehcles in Thailand, this decision is seriously flawed in my and others opinion.

[bobrussell]

The decision may well be flawed and there is no right to appeal a visitor visa but there may be elements in the application that triggered doubt. This may be caused by the ECO not looking or information not being presented in an ECO friendly way!

Over the years I have seen more than a few odd refusal letters on here. Most are a combination of ECO's rushing and applicants believing the ECO will go hunting for information.

Reapply (without sounding irritated!) and make it abundantly clear where the information that triggered the refusal, can be found.

Include all the information given first time because it may well be someone completely different processing the application.

Complain if you feel the information was clearly in the first application but don't hold your breath it will lead to any changes!

[7by7]

20 hours ago, ThaiVisaExpress said:

 

20 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 No doubt Tony will correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that UK visit visa applications must be submitted in the country of the applicant's residence.

She can apply anywhere for a visit visa, as long as she is legally in that country.  I guess that leads to further questions on this point !

 I stand corrected; apols to all.

[trigpoint]

15 hours ago, bobrussell said:

The decision may well be flawed and there is no right to appeal a visitor visa but there may be elements in the application that triggered doubt. This may be caused by the ECO not looking or information not being presented in an ECO friendly way!

Over the years I have seen more than a few odd refusal letters on here. Most are a combination of ECO's rushing and applicants believing the ECO will go hunting for information.

Reapply (without sounding irritated!) and make it abundantly clear where the information that triggered the refusal, can be found.

Include all the information given first time because it may well be someone completely different processing the application.

Complain if you feel the information was clearly in the first application but don't hold your breath it will lead to any changes!

Talking to friend here, manager of a hotel in Jomtien and other properties, lived and worked in Phnom Penh for a good few years, said he wasn't surprised at all about the refusal as she is Cambodian. He said you have to be well off, own a property, have a very good job and family in Cambodia, otherwise a visa will not be issued. Has known many cambodians apply and fail due to not having these assets.

I suspect as soon as the application is lodged the first thing they see is nationality, that raises a red flag to start and the application is refused. I,m guessing that a lot of Cambodian people who get visa,s to UK don't ever return, they will have all the data about that, hence the refusal.

[brewsterbudgen]

Talking to friend here, manager of a hotel in Jomtien and other properties, lived and worked in Phnom Penh for a good few years, said he wasn't surprised at all about the refusal as she is Cambodian. He said you have to be well off, own a property, have a very good job and family in Cambodia, otherwise a visa will not be issued. Has known many cambodians apply and fail due to not having these assets.
I suspect as soon as the application is lodged the first thing they see is nationality, that raises a red flag to start and the application is refused. I,m guessing that a lot of Cambodian people who get visa,s to UK don't ever return, they will have all the data about that, hence the refusal.

Maybe. But if a solid reason to return is given and the trip is demonstrably affordable, the nationality should not matter. As I stated earlier, my girlfriend is Laotian and she was able to get a visa. I can't believe that Cambodians are treated differently to Laotians!