If Thais don't like 2nd hand property, isn't 2nd hand property a buyer's market?

[bangkokairportlink]

You are so wrong about how difficult it is to sell condo. For some people who know nothing, everything is difficult. I agree actually.

 

 

[bangkokairportlink]

20 hours ago, Khun Jean said:

I like older condos. 10 years or older.

If they are in good shape and maintenance is in order i trust them more then a newly build.

My older condos give a return of 10%, new ones will struggle a lot to get that.

I do this for more then 10 years and never had any problems with occupancy.

In the meantime the price more then doubled. Which is not of that much importance to me. It just keeps up with inflation so that when i want to sell and buy another i do not have to add much from savings. 

After ten years it is also time to slowly roll over some of them and that will be an ongoing process from now on.

 

I am off the opinion that cash on the bank is the worst. I prefer real estate, gold, silver, stocks, tools.

 

Exactly what I am doing also.

 

You never know how new condo will be maintained and how poor is the construction. But you exactly know how good is a 10 years condo. Only Thai are too stupid not to understand this.

 

 

[denby45]

4 hours ago, Muzarella said:

It is a very good market...if they are foreclosed properties in need of some cosmetic improvement, and.if you get them from a bank for 1/2 of what they are asking for.  Very many around.

Which banks are selling foreclosed properties. May I ask. I didn't see any at the banks I frequent.

 

 

Den

[jwest10]

21 hours ago, TingTawng said:

Thanks for the replies.  I realise this is a general question and "it depends on the location" is probably the answer, but is a condo in Thailand a reasonable store of wealth for someone who's a bit nervous about only holding cash in the bank? Or should you only seriously think of a condo if you are planning to either rent it out or live in it pretty much full-time? I'm going to be living in Thailand full-time, though already have a property I'm living in (family home in Thailand, married to a Thai, wife is the owner of the property) - I do think it might be a good idea to convert some of my cash into a tangible asset as a bit of a hedge against fiat currency.

Yes, can understand and yes they do like newer property and not always better in terms of type of product is used, whereas some so - called older properties are built more solidly.
In any case, the property would be left to my Thai Family and yes they can be sold, but don't forget it is the land which sits on, which becomes more valuable.
Swings and roundabouts, I suppose.

 

[Estrada]

Certainly in the past but Thai attitudes have changed .

[Sydebolle]

If I would be in the market for a condominium, I would opt for a second hand place which is at least 5 - 6 years old. Then only you see the quality of the building, the maintenance and what kind of neighbours you might have. If it lasted a few years then in general the chances are better that things do not go south. 

The price advantage of a second hand condo (yep, it is a buyers market) can be used for adjustments to your personal taste, be it redoing a bathroom, a kitchen or a new coat of paint all over the place. 

[zaZa9]

I think the op should be made aware of the fact that little , and more often , Nothing , can be done about bad neighbours.

Even when they are breaking local ordinances or by-laws.

Have a look at the numerous articles in TV featuring proud new home owners wringing their hands about all manner of discomfort forced upon them by unruly neighbours. Sure , the  Thai neighbour who turns his apartment or house  into a pub and nocking shop  is breaking the  law , but his brown envelopes seem to make any charges simply  go away.... Or the neighbours who constantly  burn tyres on their land next door , or park their trucks so that only scooters can squeeze through ..

Dozens of stories on this in here.

Stories where the farang asks nicely for the neighbour to desist , and is threatened...

 

Now if there was good growth in the market , and sales were galloping along , then one could expect to sell up and move  fairly quickly. 

But theres not.

So you can be stuck for a very long time with the issue festering....slowly making you crazy...

But if you rent your commitment is  obviously way less.

 

If you want to invest in the property market by all means do so  ,  but do so where you know best.

 

[sead]

No.

Because Thais live in a fantasy world where a 5 year old condo or car has the same value as when it was new. So they rather keep it than loose money , even if they loose more to keep it.

Thai logic not founded anywhere else

[trogers]

21 minutes ago, sead said:

No.

Because Thais live in a fantasy world where a 5 year old condo or car has the same value as when it was new. So they rather keep it than loose money , even if they loose more to keep it.

Thai logic not founded anywhere else

This is where smart foreigners can find attractive investment opportunities in real estate.

 

Let them hold their precious for 12-15 years while you build up your cash, and then buy it over for the same price...

[catman20]

10 hours ago, trogers said:

An old building may not even be well maintained in the first instance, but can be upgraded by the co-owners, if they are shown the way.

 

I remember buying into the 30+ year old project in 2007. Unrefurbished 2-bedroom units were renting out at Bt25k while 3-bedroom units at Bt30-32k. Up the Soi, 2-bedrooms are going for Bt60k for newly built, but 40% smaller in floor area.

 

I refurbished and rent out my 2-bedroom at Bt45k, to the surprised of owners of the 3-bedrooms that I can collect even more than them.

 

We have received support from co-owners for 5 years running now in upgrading the building.

 

Numerous units have been refurbished since and rents are in the range of Bt45-60k.

The point I was try to make was not to buy in a building like a OP posted about a week ago where there were only 5 condos sold and there was no fees being paid lifts not working pool green ECT. The rest of the condos being rented out to the Chinese.you would not Want to buy into a building like that. 

[trogers]

10 minutes ago, catman20 said:

The point I was try to make was not to buy in a building like a OP posted about a week ago where there were only 5 condos sold and there was no fees being paid lifts not working pool green ECT. The rest of the condos being rented out to the Chinese.you would not Want to buy into a building like that. 

That OP probably bought off plan and only found out about the huge amount of unsold stock a year after title transfer.

 

This is why buying from the 2nd hand market don't carry this risk. You get what you see, and then move on from that point.

Edited June 20, 2017 by trogers

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

On 6/19/2017 at 1:58 PM, trogers said:

First, location. Is that location popular with working foreigners? Not those on short-term visas doing border runs.

 

This is where you establish a rental income and compare it with its price.

 

Nowhere does it say that renters only go for new projects.

 

I only purchase old units, refurbish them and rent out. Five units since 2007-8. Compared to today's prices, I got them at half the price for double the area, but my rents are at 60-70% of the new ones.

 

So, who faces more vacancy periods, new or old?

 

The keyword here is Refurbish.

Interesting. If you buy 2nd hand out of town but near one of the new BTS stations for ฿2m, refurbish for ฿200k and rent for ฿22K/m get your money back in 4 years providing you have tenants.

Bank interest is sod all at the moment.

You must have a good lawyer though? 

[trogers]

3 minutes ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

Interesting. If you buy 2nd hand out of town but near one of the new BTS stations for ฿2m, refurbish for ฿200k and rent for ฿22K/m get your money back in 4 years providing you have tenants.

Bank interest is sod all at the moment.

You must have a good lawyer though? 

Doubt you can rent out an old 1-bedroom 40+ sqm for more than Bt10k in out of town locations like Bearing or Lardprao...

[newnative]

      Some TV'ers have read all this before so just move on to the next post.  Maybe some of it will be helpful to the OP.  I've bought and sold 15 condos in Pattaya in the past 7 years so around 2 a year.  My 16th goes to closing later this month or early next month.  I always buy highrise seaview and I've made a profit on every condo I have sold; all have gained in value or I wouldn't have sold them.  Some of the condos I have lived in, some have been rentals that I then sold.  In my experience it is a myth that Thais will not buy second hand--at least when it comes to condos.  Being shrewd buyers, it is probably more of a case that they will not buy lousy, no view second hand condos in sketchy locations.   Neither will I.  I have sold second hand condos to several Thais who have valued the good location, good view, and good decoration of the units. 

     I've learned to steer clear of 'Mom and Pop' inexperienced developers with no track record, or a bad track record. If I buy off-plan it is with large, well-known, well-financed Bangkok-based developers.  Even then, there are no guarantees but I think you stand a better chance of the project being completed, and completed on-time. 

     Even if I am buying a condo just as a rental, I always buy something that I would live in myself.  If I wouldn't want to live in it, why would someone else want to rent it?  And, down the road, why would someone else want to buy it?  So, my first question to myself  as I view a condo for sale is always, could I live here?   Since I must have seaview, as I said earlier, all my condos have had seaviews.   Pattaya is a beach community and I think there will always be buyers, like me, who will demand a seaview.  There will likely be some posters who will dispute everything I have said and they will post that they are struggling to sell their condos at a loss. It takes some work, but I have been able to sell at a profit for the simple reason that there are not that many  desirable seaview condos in great locations.  It's not brain surgery and I'm no genius.  Just plain old supply and demand. There may or may not be a glut of condos for sale in Pattaya but I can tell you there isn't a glut of highrise seaview condos in great locations.  I know--I go out looking for them.

     My condo buyers in the first 5 years or so were mostly Western Europeans, Russians, and Americans.  Starting with the current condo under contract, the last 4 buyers have been:  a Chinese couple, another Chinese couple,  a Thai couple, and a single man from Singapore.  The Chinese are definitely here and some have the money to buy 3MB condos, 10MB condos, and multiple condos in a project.  I'm not a realtor but I use realtors and most of my condos have been sold with the assistance of a realtor.

     For the OP, I would say take your time, do a lot of looking at both areas and projects to get familiar with what's available, research carefully a project you are interested in,  avoid buying something that's one of 1000 with nothing special on offer.  That doesn't mean you can't buy a condo in a 1000 unit project--just aim for a unit that's special in the project.  Special is easier to sell (and rent) than ordinary.   Good luck.

   

     

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

37 minutes ago, trogers said:

Doubt you can rent out an old 1-bedroom 40+ sqm for more than Bt10k in out of town locations like Bearing or Lardprao...

Depends how old the block is and where I suppose, anything near BTS is a bit more and if it's well refurbed you could get over ฿15k for a 45 sq/m 2 bed.

Ladprao/Bearing is already on the MRT/BTS, so I was thinking near new line extension stations yet to open.

The trouble is selling on... Property doesn't appreciate in value here, and letting is a hit and miss affair at the best of times.

If you are going to invest ฿15m+ in a run down place down town it's a bigger risk if you don't get tenants and can't sell on?

Start small and grow, I guess that's what you have done unless you had a big budget to start with.

[chickenslegs]

49 minutes ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

Interesting. If you buy 2nd hand out of town but near one of the new BTS stations for ฿2m, refurbish for ฿200k and rent for ฿22K/m get your money back in 4 years providing you have tenants.

Bank interest is sod all at the moment.

You must have a good lawyer though? 

I make that 8 years+

Still, not a bad investment.

[A1Str8]

They like it. And that's what they can afford anyway. 

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

21 minutes ago, chickenslegs said:

I make that 8 years+

Still, not a bad investment.

Okay, but it has to relevant to the initial investment.

Still better than bank or other investments that run @ 5%. as you say.

[theguyfromanotherforum]

This Thais don't like second hand is absolute nonsense. A Thai family just bought a townhouse next to my wife's and are renovating it farang style.

The only reason Thais don't like second hand condos is because they can't book a contact and pay next to nothing monthly installments hoping to sell it for a profit near the completion date as they do with most new condo developments. Of course Thais buy second hand property.

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[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

Captain Picard is right, but my missus wouldn't take a big place at a cut rate as it had been empty for a year, so she was convinced it was haunted!!!

[icare999]

bought sold and rented out more than 50 properties in last 30 years average 8-10% yield although thats gone down over last 10 years and while not made gain you can get in UK or USA when selling usually made a bit but more important in a way 10 years ago you got 75 baht to gbp now only 43 and condos weve sold have gone up a bit as have houses so property has been a good investment here nothing like you got in UK over last 30 years but still far better than deposits or even stocks over 30 years 

[trogers]

8 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

Depends how old the block is and where I suppose, anything near BTS is a bit more and if it's well refurbed you could get over ฿15k for a 45 sq/m 2 bed.

Ladprao/Bearing is already on the MRT/BTS, so I was thinking near new line extension stations yet to open.

The trouble is selling on... Property doesn't appreciate in value here, and letting is a hit and miss affair at the best of times.

If you are going to invest ฿15m+ in a run down place down town it's a bigger risk if you don't get tenants and can't sell on?

Start small and grow, I guess that's what you have done unless you had a big budget to start with.

You have to analyze the rental market of that locality before making any definite moves.

 

The condo market can be divided into 3 stages: pre-crisis of 1997 and post-crisis before 2010 and the present.

 

During the period before 1997, most condo buildings are situated up to Phrakanong or Huai Khwang. From 2003 to 2010, projects popped up towards Onnut and Suthisarn. And then further out after 2010.

 

I can think of only two projects from the pre-crisis period that suit the old condo for out of town case. One on Suksawat road, and the other near Central Lardprao.

 

What realistic rents is the market commanding in that location? I have seen the same advertisements on the net months and months for 30+ sqm asking Bt15k in Onnut or Huai Khwang...and no takers.

 

So why would one at Bearing be chosen for that price?

 

I invested primarily in 2 and 3 bedroom units which have different supply and demand conditions.

[RobFord]

Yes, they love 1st hand houses and hates 2nd. Personal experience.
 
They might justify it by that ghost of past owners lives there or gave you some simlilar crap. Real reasson ussualy is, that after first owner that property will start falling apart. Level of maitanance, unqualified workers, trying to save on everything when building a house. It just ads up.
 
In our village on the main street was build a house. First renter stayed there about 5years. I came as a 2nd renter. The state of this house is completely horrendous after this 5 years. The roof is leaking so bad, that ceilings in the bathroom literally fell down. 20% of ceramic tiles in bathroom just simply felt off own on their own. Balcony is leaking. 2nd floor toilet is leaking through ceilings to 1st floor bathroom. Frame of door in living room simply felt on the ground. Its basically falling all apart. 
 
Im not the owner, but if I was and I was trying to put this house together, it would be cheaper just start from the scratch.
 
2nd hand properies sounds good only if you're not familiar with thai standars... 
 
 

Exactly. They don't put a cent into it after it's built.
People here with money are looking for places to hide it that won't cost them anything in taxes, etc.
Take a tour through Green Valley if you're ever in Mai Rim. Lovely golf course centered development filled with abandoned houses, yet at least 8 new very expensive homes have been recently completed or are under construction, including an empty high rise.
The rules don't apply because it doesn't cost them anything to hide their money in real estate. You'd be bled dry in taxes back home.


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[jadee]

On 6/20/2017 at 8:53 PM, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

Interesting. If you buy 2nd hand out of town but near one of the new BTS stations for ฿2m, refurbish for ฿200k and rent for ฿22K/m get your money back in 4 years providing you have tenants.

Bank interest is sod all at the moment.

You must have a good lawyer though? 

By out of town, do you mean out of Bangkok? You're unlikely to find anyone to pay that much in rent in places like Samut Prakarn. People live out of town precisely because it's cheaper. Check Prakard.com to see what other owners are charging for rent before deciding what you can charge for rent. You'd be surprised how cheap some places are rented out for in out of town locations. 

[Senechal]

Buying to rent out is a terrible proposition right now. Rents have barely budged in years, and prices have soared. There are empty units everywhere.

 

If you're buying because you need a place to sleep -- do it. (Although there IMHO, better arguments for renting and investing your money somewhere else). If you're buying as an ongoing revenue stream... you had better do your homework. 

Edited June 27, 2017 by Senechal

[Khun Jean]

Buying to rent works perfectly for me for already more then 10 years. An ROI of 9-10% is easy to achieve.

 

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

On 6/27/2017 at 6:59 AM, jadee said:

By out of town, do you mean out of Bangkok? You're unlikely to find anyone to pay that much in rent in places like Samut Prakarn. People live out of town precisely because it's cheaper. Check Prakard.com to see what other owners are charging for rent before deciding what you can charge for rent. You'd be surprised how cheap some places are rented out for in out of town locations. 

I was talking about a reasonable distance from the new BTS stations on the extended lines that are being built and planned. So some are quite a way out of town, but the rental value will increase once they open don't you think?

I think it is called "speculation".

Good comment though.

[11223344]

On 2017-6-19 at 4:57 PM, jadee said:

When looking at Prakard, you click on the development and then the rent/sell page. If the first page has posts that are over a year old, you're probably looking at some desperate sellers and an indication of a place that won't be in demand. There are some prime developments where posts don't stay on the front page for 30 minutes, they're that popular. 

lol this is very broken logic...

 

if the first page is over a year old it could mean people simply don't want to sell because they are happy there

 

every Lumpini / Rhythm / Whatever will be refreshed every 15 minutes not because of being "prime developments" but because having unlimited supply of low quality shoe boxes nobody wants

[trogers]

4 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

I was talking about a reasonable distance from the new BTS stations on the extended lines that are being built and planned. So some are quite a way out of town, but the rental value will increase once they open don't you think?

I think it is called "speculation".

Good comment though.

Rental value will increase? Who would be in the queue of tenants bidding up the rent? English teachers?

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

17 hours ago, trogers said:

Rental value will increase? Who would be in the queue of tenants bidding up the rent? English teachers?

Ha ha, well maybe as  the International Schools and others pay quite a bit these days for good teachers. I have a mate in KK that makes about ฿50k/m (plus his pensions and investments).

If you want a two bed place and work in town, living in town is more expensive, and getting to work on the BTS makes it a viable proposition.

Same goes for Thais I would think, bigger place for the same money and easy to get to work and home.

Anyway, I'll  not be buying any condos to refurbish in the near future, it was just a thought as some other posters seem to have done pretty well at property speculation.