Will new rules regarding labourers and work permits affect private teaching?

[petedk]

It seems that the government will introduce (or is it enforce existing laws?) regarding employment of "aliens".  

Anyone who employs an alien without a work permit will face a fine of 400,000 Baht. 

 

I was told by a Thai lady, that this was announced on a government website today. (Sorry, I don't know which one). Later, during the day I spoke to some Burmese workers (with papers) and they had heard the same story.

 

So, my question is: Will this affect teachers doing private work or corporate work that isn't registered in our work permit?

 

This is not such a stupid question as it may seem as I was nearly caught out recently when renewing my work permit. My university has more than one campus and when I went to immigration, the office casually asked asked if I taught at the other campuses. I was about to say "yes" when the secretary who came with me blurted out "no, of course not".

 

Later I asked her why she said that and she replied that we need to register each place of employment on the work permit and would have to travel to immigration in the other provinces to register.

 

Hopefully "aliens" in this case means labourers and that teachers won't be affected but like everything else in Thailand I guess it is up to the individual handling the case. 

 

Has anyone else heard anything about this?

 

[tonray]

"a fine of 400,000 baht -or- 3000 baht to look the other way" 

 

You have to read the fine print.

[TerryLH]

Immigration isn't the office for work permits.

[petedk]

I know immigration isn't the office for work permits , but I assume all the documents we give immigration are somehow connected to the visa and later work permit.
All I know is that I was quickly silenced by the secretary.

Anyway, back to the work permit. The work permit is location based and officially teachers are only allowed to teach at the specified address.

Until now authorities have turned a blind eye to nearly all cases, but there have been one or two cases of teachers being persecuted for one reason or another.

[JungleBiker]

1 hour ago, petedk said:

 there have been one or two cases of teachers being persecuted for one reason or another.
 

 

Sorry to question an English teacher's English but do you mean persecuted or prosecuted?

[Khun Robert]

I don't know about authorities turning a blind eye. I do know about Scuba Diving Instructors got arrested for performing Scuba lessons at Koh Phi Phi.  They had work permits from their shops in Phuket and Koh Phi Phi is part of Krabi Province.

 

Also here in Krabi, last high season a group of Immigration Police together with Tourist Police were checking work permits and the address where you are working. No blind eyes here. 

[Scott]

It's reasonably clear that Immigration is taking a harder stance on foreigners working/living in Thailand illegally.   By extension, the Ministry of Labor would be cracking down as well.  

 

In the past Thailand was a poor country.   It has developed quickly and Thais are quickly advancing economically.   A lot of foreigners are no longer viewed as being wealthy and their antics that make it into the news, and social media, which is readily viewed by a large number of people, are no longer seen as simply quirky.  

 

Most of the visa programs are geared for those with quite a bit of money.   The days of endless border runs is long gone and the various other methods of staying, such as endless education visas have also largely disappeared.   

 

So, yes, I think I would tend to be concerned about not following the terms of the Work Permit, although that said, a lot of private tutorial work is going to be hard for them to catch people at, unless they are reported.  

[ozmeldo]

I'm not trying to be trollish, but what sort of loser do you have to be to work at some crappy teaching job for 30k AND not demand the school process a work permit. The least they could do...

 

Triple so if it's a language school which up until now have relied almost entirely on illegal labor. It's a business that requires foreign workers at it's core of operations sff! 

 

It's definitely a monumental hassle obtaining a prov license and work permit but anything less and the school is taking the piss and you will hang for it, not them.

 

Move on or move out (of Thailand). No tears for anyone, especially ill trained and dreaded 'dive instructors'.

[ozmeldo]

4 hours ago, Scott said:

It's reasonably clear that Immigration is taking a harder stance on foreigners working/living in Thailand illegally.   By extension, the Ministry of Labor would be cracking down as well.  

 

In the past Thailand was a poor country.   It has developed quickly and Thais are quickly advancing economically.   A lot of foreigners are no longer viewed as being wealthy and their antics that make it into the news, and social media, which is readily viewed by a large number of people, are no longer seen as simply quirky.  

 

Most of the visa programs are geared for those with quite a bit of money.   The days of endless border runs is long gone and the various other methods of staying, such as endless education visas have also largely disappeared.   

 

So, yes, I think I would tend to be concerned about not following the terms of the Work Permit, although that said, a lot of private tutorial work is going to be hard for them to catch people at, unless they are reported.  

I always cringe reading tutoring ads on Craigslist. The tutors always seem so incompetent. Typos in ads, no style. Quite obvious no degree...I feel sorry for any Thai not saavy enough to pick that up.

 

Just last week I found brochures from real tutoring centers like the ones advertised on Ajarn. I asked the class if this is where they go for tutoring. They all said no, lol. Seems like my kids get tutored a variety of places including homes, shops and Siam Sq.

[ozmeldo]

8 hours ago, petedk said:

I know immigration isn't the office for work permits , but I assume all the documents we give immigration are somehow connected to the visa and later work permit.
All I know is that I was quickly silenced by the secretary.

Anyway, back to the work permit. The work permit is location based and officially teachers are only allowed to teach at the specified address.

Until now authorities have turned a blind eye to nearly all cases, but there have been one or two cases of teachers being persecuted for one reason or another.
 

If I had a WP from a school and wanted a side job, that's a risk I'd take generally speaking. Especially if you're paying taxes on that money.

 

Having said that I'd never work for an agency and agree to be farmed out for corporate work all over the city, even with a WP. Seems a horrible job too. Nor would I work for an agency and sub at various schools. That to me is trouble waiting to happen.

Edited June 24, 2017 by ozmeldo

[1SteveC]

8 hours ago, Scott said:

It's reasonably clear that Immigration is taking a harder stance on foreigners working/living in Thailand illegally.   By extension, the Ministry of Labor would be cracking down as well.  

 

Don't lump them together - immigration only deal with the visa/extension side and labour only with the work permit side, neither gives a stuff about the other.

 

That said, do you have any links or evidence of either immigration or labour taking a "harder stance"? I personally have heard of no changes to any rules or stricter enforcement of those already in place.

[ericthai]

5 hours ago, ozmeldo said:

If I had a WP from a school and wanted a side job, that's a risk I'd take generally speaking. Especially if you're paying taxes on that money.

 

Having said that I'd never work for an agency and agree to be farmed out for corporate work all over the city, even with a WP. Seems a horrible job too. Nor would I work for an agency and sub at various schools. That to me is trouble waiting to happen.

Why? If you have a work permit good for all locations it's not an issue. My work permit had out office address, our factory address and our warehouse on it. As I never knew where I would be each day.  I have some friends that are the same an office in BKK and a factory in Rayong and they work in both places. never had an issue. Actually I think they only came around checking on things 2-3 times over the years. 

[Scott]

3 hours ago, 1SteveC said:

 

Don't lump them together - immigration only deal with the visa/extension side and labour only with the work permit side, neither gives a stuff about the other.

 

That said, do you have any links or evidence of either immigration or labour taking a "harder stance"? I personally have heard of no changes to any rules or stricter enforcement of those already in place.

I am not lumping them together, but some time back, I reported on a teacher arrested for a forged document submitted to the MOL.   The forgery was not obvious, but was discovered when the MOL called the immigration officer about which people she had approved.   So, yes, they do communicate.   How often or how much, I don't know, but they do.

 

No, I don't have any links to a harder stance, but if you wish to read through some of the topics here, I think you will see that it is a reality.   I work with the immigration and Labor offices for 5 different provinces.    A number of years ago, anything that roughly looked like a degree was approved without question.   Several years ago pretty much ended, it went to the degree and a copy of the transcript, then it went to a certified copy of the transcript.   It also went from no police clearance to having to have a police clearance.

 

There are a number of other of areas where the rules have been tightened up, but they really go well beyond the topic of this thread.  

 

 

[1SteveC]

8 hours ago, Scott said:

It also went from no police clearance to having to have a police clearance.

 

This is only for teachers applying for a Non-B at an embassy or consulate - and they are run by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, (not immigration or the labour department).

[ozmeldo]

On 6/24/2017 at 10:21 PM, ericthai said:

Why? If you have a work permit good for all locations it's not an issue. My work permit had out office address, our factory address and our warehouse on it. As I never knew where I would be each day.  I have some friends that are the same an office in BKK and a factory in Rayong and they work in both places. never had an issue. Actually I think they only came around checking on things 2-3 times over the years. 

 

Well, you had the addresses entered in the wp so pretty obvious this is not what I was discussing. My hunch is 85% of most English language schools never get round to obtaining any wps.

 

It's common knowledge that a WP is technically only good for the address in the book.

 

 

 

If you don't think Immigration cops care about WP/MOL discrepancies You'd be wrong. Further, many quite adept at figuring out when you left your school, when you must leave the country and all the tedious paperwork that goes with it. Are some of you saying that if they see an issue that would void your wp that they would turn a blind eye? If the wp goes, the visa goes immediately. Besides, they are Thai cops, they live to catch you in a brazen act of deciet and treachery against the Thai people.

[Scott]

An inflammatory post has been removed.  

[1SteveC]

12 hours ago, ozmeldo said:

If the wp goes, the visa goes immediately.

 

This is incorrect, visas are not cancelled, only extensions of stay - this is a reason why the correct terminology, (both in OPs and advice) is so important.

[stubuzz]

I have told my school i will no longer work or judge competitions outside of my school ( registered address on my WP)  as i will be liable for a 100k fine.  They will not accept this and will not accept that my work permit is location based.

[Preacher]

Your normal place of work is the school and that should be in the work permit. But it is generally accepted that occasionally you will not be at the place of work. Sometimes people have to go to a seminar or training or go on a filed trip with students. That is no problem, it is a normal part of the job and you can't put everything in the work permit.

Problem is if your work permit states you work at location A and on a regular occurrence also work at location B. Be it once a week or a month per year.

[thequietman]

2 hours ago, stubuzz said:

I have told my school i will no longer work or judge competitions outside of my school ( registered address on my WP)  as i will be liable for a 100k fine.  They will not accept this and will not accept that my work permit is location based.

I would suggest visiting your local labour office and asking them if it is allowed. If they say yes then insist they give you a letter stating that it is. Cover your back and if they don't give it, then you can tell your school you tried. If school dismisses you then off to labour office again for a judgment in your favor and salary paid in full for the duration of your contract.

[stubuzz]

1 hour ago, Preacher said:

Your normal place of work is the school and that should be in the work permit. But it is generally accepted that occasionally you will not be at the place of work. Sometimes people have to go to a seminar or training or go on a filed trip with students.

This was a risk i was willing to take when the fine was 2000Bt.  However, the country is now controlled by the military and the new fine is 100,000bt.

[petedk]

On 6/24/2017 at 9:35 AM, JungleBiker said:

 

Sorry to question an English teacher's English but do you mean persecuted or prosecuted?

I meant persecuted (maybe hassled or threatened would be better words before you start again).

 

 I seem to remember a year or so ago a Thai Visa poster wrote that he was (I forget the exact words) but seriously worried about some immigration official hinting that they were investigating him and others were acting differently. I cannot remember the exact details, but I sure he wasn't prosecuted.

 

 

[petedk]

On 6/24/2017 at 10:14 AM, Khun Robert said:

I don't know about authorities turning a blind eye. I do know about Scuba Diving Instructors got arrested for performing Scuba lessons at Koh Phi Phi.  They had work permits from their shops in Phuket and Koh Phi Phi is part of Krabi Province.

 

Also here in Krabi, last high season a group of Immigration Police together with Tourist Police were checking work permits and the address where you are working. No blind eyes here. 

So they were arrested. Do you know what happened to them?

[Preacher]

20 hours ago, stubuzz said:

This was a risk i was willing to take when the fine was 2000Bt.  However, the country is now controlled by the military and the new fine is 100,000bt.

No, this part of the law has not been changed. The maximum penalty is 100,000 baht fine and or up to 5 years in jail for ages.