Changed rules for OA?

[visacrack]

I have been living in a Pattaya condo for several years, and my manager has always taken care of the annual visa renewal, for a fee. Unfortunately she left her job several months ago - I felt that this might mean visa trouble ahead.

 

The new manager isn't bad but doesn't seem to be familar with the procedure. Now that my visa will expire in about 2 weeks, I asked him if he could do what his predecessor used to do. He promised to get familiar with it. 

 

He recently came back and said yes, he can do it, but 1 thing is different: While my swiss bank account always was fine, and I didn't need paperwork either (I had to pay a little surcharge for this service), they suddenly require a thai account, according to his words. 

 

I wasn't amused because this requires a useless re-arrangement of my banking organisation, but would not let this get in my way. When at the (K) bank, however, they presented me a very inquisitive questionnaire, with questions like, what is your education, income, assets, etc - the kind of questions you would not readily answer, even less so when you don't really see what they have to do with opening/maintaining a little bank account. 
 

The situation now is that we will have to see if they are as flexible as they were with regard to the very inquisitive immigration form we were served last year (which gradually disappeared, according to my impression), or if they remain adamant. In this latter case, I'm considering to stay for another 4 or 5 months and then leave. I've never been 'in trouble' here. My question is, how would I do that? Any useful advice very welcome indeed. 

 

[Jingthing]

A confusing post.

O-A visa?

Do you mean you originally moved to Thailand on an O-A visa from your home country?

If so, I assume you've been getting annual extensions based on retirement in Thailand.

For that you have three choices --

800K in THAI bank account seasoned for three months (first time two)

OR

Income letter from embassy showing as least 65K monthly income

OR

A combination of bank plus income over 800K annually.

 

IF you've been getting annual extensions based on retirement with a BANK ACCOUNT method and using a SWISS bank account, something is not right.

That is against the law.

 

Also, with a Thai bank account, and only two weeks left on your current permission to stay, it is way too late to LEGALLY qualify based on a bank account method with the three months seasoning required.

 

Perhaps you've been using one of those dodgy visa fixers.

Your manager? Work manager?

You're not allowed to work in Thailand on retirement extensions.

My guess is you've been using a dodgy visa fixer.

Maybe clarify on some of my assumptions and then you can get some on point advice. 

Hard to go far on GUESSES. 

 

Anyway, general advice to people using "managers" with no understanding as to what extent they are actually breaking the law doing so (getting away with it or not) I would suggest taking the time to learn what the ACTUAL LAWS are so you're not caught with your pants down as it sounds like may have happened to the OP. 

Edited July 5, 2017 by Jingthing

[paz]

The bank questions are nothing strange. They are part of know-your-client regulations that has been mandated worldwide in recent years, mostly to evaluate investment risk profile.

It is easy to infer the the "manager" is a condo manager just reading the first four lines of OP. And the rest of the post above mine takes a kind of lecturing attitude that even if technically correct, does not apply or help the OP.   And since he does not seem the type of person that is interested or very able to navigate immigration by himself, I suggest that he contacts the former condo manager again. She should be able to sort things out just like she did before. 

[Jingthing]

16 minutes ago, paz said:

The bank questions are nothing strange. They are part of know-your-client regulations that has been mandated worldwide in recent years, mostly to evaluate investment risk profile.

It is easy to infer the the "manager" is a condo manager just reading the first four lines of OP. And the rest of the post above mine takes a kind of lecturing attitude that even if technically correct, does not apply or help the OP.   And since he does not seem the type of person that is interested or very able to navigate immigration by himself, I suggest that he contacts the former condo manager again. She should be able to sort things out just like she did before. 

It is not possible to legally do an annual retirement extension using a bank account method when it is not a THAI bank account. It NEVER has been.

So I still think he's been involved with a visa fixer. Many people use them. What they do is not legal. I don't think this forum is about giving advice on how to use visa fixers using illegal methods. 

 

He said O-A visa which of course he is no longer on but what other logical guess is there but that he's been getting annual extensions based on retirement.

 

About the reaction to the K-bank form asking personal questions, I've found you can usually just leave many of those fields BLANK.

 

Maybe your new visa fixer will be able to do you without the money actually being in Thailand, without the legally required seasoning, but now does need at least a Thai bank account to do the magic. Again, this is not legal.

 

As far as the immigration Personal Info form, the general info here lately is that it is not asked for anymore. But could depend on office.

 

As far as any changes to the LEGAL requirements for annual retirement extensions -- the answer is no. BUT perhaps there has been a change in how your immigration office deals with the visa fixers that use illegal methods regardless. 

 

To add, there is no reason why a condo manager couldn't act as a visa fixer as a sideline. I guess that's the most logical guess in this case. 

 

Cheers. 

Edited July 5, 2017 by Jingthing

[JackThompson]

OP -  Your "annual renewal" was of your "permission of stay."  Whatever visa you had when you arrived is no longer active.  If you do not want to deal with immigration directly, there are many agents who will get you a retirement-extension at a cost.  I would guess your old condo-mgr was using one of these, and the new one is doing things "by the book" - which is why the money in-the-bank came up.

 

Note that the cost doing it yourself is 1900 Baht/year.  Compare to what you were paying for a visa-service, before. 

 

If doing it yourself this time, you could use the income method to avoid the need to have the 800K Baht in the bank for 3 months (minimum) before applying.  That will require an "income letter" stamped/certified by your embassy, stating you have an income of "X" - where "X" is more than 65K Baht/mo.  You can contact your embassy to find out the process of getting this done.

[Jingthing]

Almost definitely the only chance the OP has to get an extension this time is with a visa fixer that has ways of getting around the actual legal rules.

There are two categories of visa help.

The legal kind is a hand holding type thing where the legal rules are followed.

The other kind is common enough but my understanding over the years is that this visa forum avoids supporting advice about.

[JackThompson]

3 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Almost definitely the only chance the OP has to get an extension this time is with a visa fixer that has ways of getting around the actual legal rules. ...

Not necessarily, because ...

1 hour ago, visacrack said:

Now that my visa will expire in about 2 weeks,

The income-letter would only take a day-trip to Bangkok to get from his Embassy (assuming no consulate-office closer).  With that, he could still get the extension DIY - no fixer.

 

Edited July 5, 2017 by JackThompson

[Jingthing]

Yes if has income that qualifies.

Based on his OP and several years using a bank method I wouldn't bet on that.

 

But you're right if he can use income that would do it and fully legal unless lying to an embassy.

 

 

[visacrack]

Thanks to all of you, especially paz! 

 

[perthperson]

What the OP describes is worrying. I cannot help but speculate on what might be in his passport and where it came from. 

 

It would appear the OP  casting around for "assistance" in obtaining ? A visa? An extension stay ?  

 

Perhaps he will find what he seeks, at a price. 

 

 

[Jingthing]

Almost definitely he's on annual retirement extensions.

 

Good luck with the new visa fixer.

 

I suppose it's a philosophical question whether legal legit immigration stamps are fully legal if obtained without actually meeting the legal rules.

 

 

 

[PoorSucker]

NEVER USE VISA FIXERS, PERIOD.
You will never know if he used a handmade stamp and took your money.
You could be sentenced to prison and deported, happened before.

The extension will cost you 1.900 baht at immigration.
If you are paying more you are probably not legal.
The extension form states "application must be made in person"

Of course you can hire someone to help you with the paperwork.
I help all the time here on Samui, cost: 1-2 beers

[perthperson]

5 minutes ago, PoorSucker said:

NEVER USE VISA FIXERS, PERIOD

 

There was a story circulating a while back about a chap who had been using a "fixer" to obtain extensions without fully meeting the requirements. The story related the fact that the guy eventually found the "fixer fee" excessive and he decided to do it himself. Allegedly (a kindly?) IO looked at his passport, refused the extension and advised the chap to leave Thailand ASAP. ....... 

 

I know ---just an anecdote! 

[Jingthing]

 

There was a story circulating a while back about a chap who had been using a "fixer" to obtain extensions without fully meeting the requirements. The story related the fact that the guy eventually found the "fixer fee" excessive and he decided to do it himself. Allegedly (a kindly?) IO looked at his passport, refused the extension and advised the chap to leave Thailand ASAP. ....... 

 

I know ---just an anecdote! 

Well it's a story but without an important detail even if true it doesn't mean much. If that happened because they were fake stamps is very different than if they were real stamps even if obtained without following the rules. My assumption is that most visa fixer stamps are real stamps.

 

 

Of course if you show up with fake stamps it's game over.

 

 

[Jingthing]

NEVER USE VISA FIXERS, PERIOD.
You will never know if he used a handmade stamp and took your money.
You could be sentenced to prison and deported, happened before.

The extension will cost you 1.900 baht at immigration.
If you are paying more you are probably not legal.
The extension form states "application must be made in person"

Of course you can hire someone to help you with the paperwork.
I help all the time here on Samui, cost: 1-2 beers

I'm not convinced that people have been punished if they got real stamps. Of course there is always that risk if obtained using a fixer of the not following the rules type.

[KhunBENQ]

Question to the OP :

Do you receive a pension that is worth 65000 Baht/month or more?

 

If so:

As you are not prepared for a legal extension based on Thai bank account you could use the income method in this case.

Needs a document from Swiss embassy/consulate confirming your income (they might want to see proof, not sure).

Get independent from "fixers", agents or even your building manager.

The procedure is not rocket science.

 

[perthperson]

5 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I'm not convinced that people have been punished if they got real stamps. Of course there is always that risk if obtained using a fixer of the not following the rules type.

 

It is a number of years ago now there was visa exempt scam operating in Phuket which involved passports being transported to the border without their owners. When immigration bust the scam they retained the passports thus forcing the owners into making an appearance. Interestingly the police where refusing to issue 'lost' passport reports during this time thus  making any attempt at getting a new passport/travel document very difficult. People were fined and deported.

All those people had "real" stamps..............

[tonray]

The fixers seem to be working out of most of the large language schools in Bangkok. I know several people who with no money in the bank, arranged thru them with a payment of 15,000 baht for retirement extensions. Pay the 15K, give them you passport, and a week later comes back with a stamp. The schools also throw in free Thai lessons for the year as a sweetener.

[Jingthing]

Crackdown coming any decade now ...

[poohy]

6 minutes ago, tonray said:

The fixers seem to be working out of most of the large language schools in Bangkok. I know several people who with no money in the bank, arranged thru them with a payment of 15,000 baht for retirement extensions. Pay the 15K, give them you passport, and a week later comes back with a stamp. The schools also throw in free Thai lessons for the year as a sweetener.

Its Pattaya there must be 100s of the visa agent fixers that do it without the need for Thai lessons, money in the bank etc just pay the fee.it's 15K

I suspect asking around in a few bars would enlighten the OP

Edited July 5, 2017 by poohy

[tonray]

3 minutes ago, poohy said:

Its Pattaya there must be 100s of the visa agent fixers that do it without the need for Thai lessons, money in the bank etc just pay the fee.it's 15K

I suspect asking around in a few bars would enlighten the OP

I'm thinking the lessons must be a legal 'out' in case an investigation ever happens. I did not see any contracts but my guess is you sign up for 15K of Thai lessons and the extension stuff happens behind the scenes.

[gk10002000]

7 hours ago, Jingthing said:

It is not possible to legally do an annual retirement extension using a bank account method when it is not a THAI bank account. It NEVER has been.

So I still think he's been involved with a visa fixer. Many people use them. What they do is not legal. I don't think this forum is about giving advice on how to use visa fixers using illegal methods. 

 

He said O-A visa which of course he is no longer on but what other logical guess is there but that he's been getting annual extensions based on retirement.

 

About the reaction to the K-bank form asking personal questions, I've found you can usually just leave many of those fields BLANK.

 

Maybe your new visa fixer will be able to do you without the money actually being in Thailand, without the legally required seasoning, but now does need at least a Thai bank account to do the magic. Again, this is not legal.

 

As far as the immigration Personal Info form, the general info here lately is that it is not asked for anymore. But could depend on office.

 

As far as any changes to the LEGAL requirements for annual retirement extensions -- the answer is no. BUT perhaps there has been a change in how your immigration office deals with the visa fixers that use illegal methods regardless. 

 

To add, there is no reason why a condo manager couldn't act as a visa fixer as a sideline. I guess that's the most logical guess in this case. 

 

Cheers. 

wait a minute. I know that if people got the Visa in their home country they can have funds in their own country banks.  Are you saying that after that initial visa period, when they go to qualify for extension due to retirement they now need one of the two other methods: 800k  baht in Thai bank, or the income affidavit?   I always just naively assumed that what you started with was good enough to continue with.  Errata, looking at the details, it looks like while a foreigner could initially have the funds in their home country, when they later file for the extension they must do the funds in a Thai bank.  I just had never thought of that difference.  Thanks

Edited July 5, 2017 by gk10002000
errata

[Jingthing]

22 minutes ago, gk10002000 said:

...
Are you saying that after that initial visa period, when they go to qualify for extension due to retirement they now need one of the two other methods: 800k  baht in Thai bank, or the income affidavit?  
...

Yes.

You got it. 

But there is a third option -- a combination of money in a Thai bank account plus income. 

[gk10002000]

Just now, Jingthing said:

Yes.

You got it. 

But there is a third option -- a combination of money in a Thai bank account plus income. 

oh yeah.  I meant to just refer to the banking part.  In retrospect I bet many foreigners that originally did the visa in their home country did not later somehow do the proper banking in Thailand.  Me, it will be for sure the income method. 

[Maestro]

"Changed rules for OA?"

 

No, visacrack, there have been no recent changes in the rules for the application for a non-immigrant visa category O/A at a Thai embassy or consulate or for the application for an extension of stay for the reason of retirement at the applicant's local immigration office in Thailand.

[paz]

50 minutes ago, Maestro said:

"Changed rules for OA?"

He doesn't have an O/A, that has been clear from the onset.

[paz]

6 hours ago, perthperson said:

 

It is a number of years ago now there was visa exempt scam

...

RIght. But not the OP situation, location, or proposition.

[JackThompson]

12 hours ago, perthperson said:

There was a story circulating a while back about a chap who had been using a "fixer" to obtain extensions without fully meeting the requirements. The story related the fact that the guy eventually found the "fixer fee" excessive and he decided to do it himself. Allegedly (a kindly?) IO looked at his passport, refused the extension and advised the chap to leave Thailand ASAP. .......

I recall a thread here of that nature - first he was told he needed more paperwork, which he obtained - then he was told to "go back to the fixer" for his extension (this was all at Chang Watana).  He was advised (here) to go out for a fresh 90-day Non-O from a consulate in a nearby country to do a "clean re-start" of his retirement-visa process.  Hopefully that will not be necessary in the case of the OP.

[Maestro]

18 hours ago, paz said:

He doesn't have an O/A, that has been clear from the onset.

 

I quoted the topic title.

[ManilaJoe]

I'm not convinced that people have been punished if they got real stamps. Of course there is always that risk if obtained using a fixer of the not following the rules type  Jingthing said

 

Thats right, at least 10-15% of retirement extensions in Pattaya are obtained by visa agents and nobody got ever  punished..The additional income for some immigration officer is simply to good. This service is also in Bangkok without any problem available and there not only for Non-O and retirement extensions!

 

Munotlaw