Wife buying land....spouse to sign documents?

[Felt 35]

My better half want to buy some more rai of land which is reasonably priced with a loan from bank and with security in land she have inherited and tell me I have to sign documents and even so if I was a Thai citizen. I dont understand why so if anyone know please shed some light over the subject!? Btw, she are a working woman and have a good income after Thai standards and are not dependent on support from me.

 

Thanks

Felt.

Edited July 7, 2017 by Felt 35

[BEVUP]

So ok lets say it may be as the Guarantor on the bank side of things

Then there would be one at Land Dept. known as Simros/Samrus - This shall identify that you had gifted (only ) any monies to your wife (even though you dont't plan to ) meaning that at the end of the day you will have no claim to such land

Many threads on here & even with the land department document others have mentioned since land was aquired during marriage it is auto 50/50

This is my take but there are better informed people

[Felt 35]

1 hour ago, BEVUP said:

So ok lets say it may be as the Guarantor on the bank side of things

Then there would be one at Land Dept. known as Simros/Samrus - This shall identify that you had gifted (only ) any monies to your wife (even though you dont't plan to ) meaning that at the end of the day you will have no claim to such land

Many threads on here & even with the land department document others have mentioned since land was aquired during marriage it is auto 50/50

This is my take but there are better informed people

So are you saying that even if I have absolutely given no money to my wife or would or could be any guarantor for the bank and have not the smallest interest in the land. The land dept. have as a law that me as spouse will have to sign documents to assure I will not claim ownership of the land?

 

Okay, but what risk could I encounter if against all odds my wife later use that said land as security for purchase or guaranty for something I of one or another reason have no knowledge about and that investment go bankrupt and the bank demand the land but the value is not high enough to cover they losses will I then even if I earlier have signed documents saying I have no right to the land be a spouse of the land owner be responsible for paying the loss incurred to the bank?

[Gary A]

I have signed quite a number of those documents. As you probably know, you cannot own land in Thailand. What the document says is that you are stating that you have no financial interest in the property. It doesn't matter if you paid for the land or not. They don't care where the money came from if there was money involved. If you don't sign the document, you wife will not be able to own the land.

[ben2talk]

1 minute ago, Gary A said:

What the document says is that you are stating that you have no financial interest in the property. It doesn't matter if you paid for the land or not. They don't care where the money came from if there was money involved. If you don't sign the document, you wife will not be able to own the land.

And yes - it really is totally pointless and extremely annoying. It'd be like you going to buy a bottle of beer, but then needing to set up an appointment with your wife so that she can sign the receipt stating that she is not going to drink any. Crazy.

 

For us, it meant we couldn't sign the documents locally - we both were forced to take a day out of work and travel across the city to the head office of the Bank and wait an hour for the meeting (scheduled 'Thai time' 2pm - meaning 'sometime after lunch').

[BEVUP]

9 hours ago, ben2talk said:

And yes - it really is totally pointless and extremely annoying. It'd be like you going to buy a bottle of beer, but then needing to set up an appointment with your wife so that she can sign the receipt stating that she is not going to drink any. Crazy.

 

For us, it meant we couldn't sign the documents locally - we both were forced to take a day out of work and travel across the city to the head office of the Bank and wait an hour for the meeting (scheduled 'Thai time' 2pm - meaning 'sometime after lunch').

Yes absolutely crazy, it doesn't matter what you do they can still do what they like with the land (it just takes someone crazy enough )

It's strange just like the beer matter above where the land department gets off on you signing that document, but the other strange thing is if you were Guarantor (I guess someone may need to be ) I bet the bank or loan shark will be trying to find you if all else failed.

Then there's the inheritance bit, which would entitle you to own the land for 1 yr then required to be passed on to a Thai 

 

 

[meatboy]

in over 30yrs.with my wife, myself and my wife would NEVER sign as GUARANTOR,exspecially a family member.

[HHTel]

12 hours ago, Gary A said:

I have signed quite a number of those documents. As you probably know, you cannot own land in Thailand. What the document says is that you are stating that you have no financial interest in the property. It doesn't matter if you paid for the land or not. They don't care where the money came from if there was money involved. If you don't sign the document, you wife will not be able to own the land.

You're correct regarding the document you mentioned.  However, that document was never accepted by a court and has since disappeared.  The new document you sign states that the land is Sin Som Ros and it's value is split 50/50 upon divorce.

[Gary A]

21 minutes ago, HHTel said:

You're correct regarding the document you mentioned.  However, that document was never accepted by a court and has since disappeared.  The new document you sign states that the land is Sin Som Ros and it's value is split 50/50 upon divorce.

 

Not long ago, my wife's parents split up their farm and each of five daughters received a bit more than 3 rai. I had to sign that same document, so no changes here yet.

[kwonitoy]

12 hours ago, Gary A said:

I have signed quite a number of those documents. As you probably know, you cannot own land in Thailand. What the document says is that you are stating that you have no financial interest in the property. It doesn't matter if you paid for the land or not. They don't care where the money came from if there was money involved. If you don't sign the document, you wife will not be able to own the land.

I've bought 5 pieces of land for my wife totaling 100 rai all planted with rubber, bought starting ins 2006 and ending in 2010.

My wife has converted the land titles to her own, using my last name which she took on when we married. She was quizzed quite hard on doing this and not using her Thai last name for some reason but she's a hard headed thing.

Never have I been asked to sign any documents at the land office and I haven't even though they knew I was the money behind the purchase

[Gary A]

5 minutes ago, kwonitoy said:

I've bought 5 pieces of land for my wife totaling 100 rai all planted with rubber, bought starting ins 2006 and ending in 2010.

My wife has converted the land titles to her own, using my last name which she took on when we married. She was quizzed quite hard on doing this and not using her Thai last name for some reason but she's a hard headed thing.

Never have I been asked to sign any documents at the land office and I haven't even though they knew I was the money behind the purchase

 

Many Thai women kept their maiden names just to eliminate those small hassles. My wife changed her last name to mine. I didn't care either way, it was totally her decision. As mentioned above, that document means little anyways. All Thai government offices seem to make up their own rules, including immigration.

[sawadee1947]

13 hours ago, Gary A said:

I have signed quite a number of those documents. As you probably know, you cannot own land in Thailand. What the document says is that you are stating that you have no financial interest in the property. It doesn't matter if you paid for the land or not. They don't care where the money came from if there was money involved. If you don't sign the document, you wife will not be able to own the land.

I signed some of those documents too. It's not quite right that you have no rights. In case of divorce there are similar rights than in our countries. The assets have to be split, in this case the plot will be sold or your ex-wife will give you the equivalent in money. In case of death your children will inherit the money out of selling the properties. Make a simple last will at the office (city council)

[Foozool]

Good idea,

your wife will sell it and you will pay for the loan. ???

[Gary A]

1 hour ago, sawadee1947 said:

I signed some of those documents too. It's not quite right that you have no rights. In case of divorce there are similar rights than in our countries. The assets have to be split, in this case the plot will be sold or your ex-wife will give you the equivalent in money. In case of death your children will inherit the money out of selling the properties. Make a simple last will at the office (city council)

 

You may be right according to the legal aspect. I have seen a lot of divorces where the husband was awarded his half. Unfortunately the divorce court has no power of enforcement. Most of the husbands ended up getting nothing. The ones who did get something had fair minded wives who thought the husband deserved part of what they had. Unfortunately most divorced wives are not fair minded. Then there was the very expensive hiring a lawyer to get their half and all that accomplished was to have to pay a huge lawyer bill and still get nothing.

[Felt 35]

2 hours ago, Foozool said:

Good idea,

your wife will sell it and you will pay for the loan. ???

 Well I havent signed anything yet. However we are all human and what would we not do, include selling land if we needed money for example to pay for a parents hospital bills. That of course at least IMO dont make it right that the foreign spouse waving the right to most everything here shall be responsible to cover a banks loss. However one or another place there must be or should be some law/regulation specific to that situation which I believe most likely have happen more than once.

[Foozool]

1 hour ago, Felt 35 said:

 Well I havent signed anything yet. However we are all human and what would we not do, include selling land if we needed money for example to pay for a parents hospital bills. That of course at least IMO dont make it right that the foreign spouse waving the right to most everything here shall be responsible to cover a banks loss. However one or another place there must be or should be some law/regulation specific to that situation which I believe most likely have happen more than once.

I never put myself in such situation.

I need to get some asleep every night. 

[Acharn]

23 hours ago, Felt 35 said:

So are you saying that even if I have absolutely given no money to my wife or would or could be any guarantor for the bank and have not the smallest interest in the land. The land dept. have as a law that me as spouse will have to sign documents to assure I will not claim ownership of the land?

 

Okay, but what risk could I encounter if against all odds my wife later use that said land as security for purchase or guaranty for something I of one or another reason have no knowledge about and that investment go bankrupt and the bank demand the land but the value is not high enough to cover they losses will I then even if I earlier have signed documents saying I have no right to the land be a spouse of the land owner be responsible for paying the loss incurred to the bank?

I am not a lawyer, but I've been here quite a while and seen this change over time. The original statute was the Land Law of 1941 (if I have that correct -- maybe it was 1944). That was in response to British companies abusing forest and mining "concessions," and it simply prohibits any non-Thai citizen from owning land. That means you cannot inherit land from your wife's estate if she predeceases you. It has to go to a Thai citizen, never to you. (unless you become a Thai citizen, of course). OK, after Field Marshall Thanom Kittikachorn was overthrown there were several "revolutionary" governments and I think it was under Admiral Kraivichien that the Department of the Interior issued an internal regulation (the law of the land) that any Thy citizen married to a foreigner was prohibited from acquiring title to land. They were not required to give up title to land they already owned and the regulation was almost never enforced against men, it was primarily intended to discourage Thai women from marrying foreigners. I believe it was under Prime Minister Thaksin that the regulation was clarified so that if a Thai married to a non-Thai citizen wanted to register land (maybe acquired through inheritance) the non-Thai had to sign a certificate to swear that he/she had no legal interest in the land. I've never done it so I'm not sure of the wording. At one time you swore that any money you had given your spouse that was used to buy the land was a gift and you understood you had no ownership right. 

 

The question about the residual debt to the bank depends on the terms of whatever document you sign with the bank. The land would have no effect on that. I presume the land would be sold and you would have to pay whatever part of the debt was not covered. That's the way it would work in the States if you cosigned a mortgage for someone.

 

I think the main point is you understand you do not have any ownership right in the land and never will unless you gain Thai citizenship

[Gary A]

My wife has had a number of mortgages on farmland. The amount she was able to borrow was a VERY small percentage of the actual land value. If the bank foreclosed, there certainly would not be any balance  owed. 

[sandemara]

23 hours ago, Felt 35 said:

Okay, but what risk could I encounter if against all odds my wife later use that said land as security for purchase or guaranty for something I of one or another reason have no knowledge about and that investment go bankrupt and the bank demand the land but the value is not high enough to cover they losses will I then even if I earlier have signed documents saying I have no right to the land be a spouse of the land owner be responsible for paying the loss incurred to the bank

I think you'll find that Thai marriage law provides for 50/50 split of any assets accrued during your marriage (including value of land) - but. likewise, you also are responsible 50/50 for any debts accrued during nthe marriage.

[Felt 35]

3 minutes ago, sandemara said:

I think you'll find that Thai marriage law provides for 50/50 split of any assets accrued during your marriage (including value of land) - but. likewise, you also are responsible 50/50 for any debts accrued during nthe marriage.

Well big question answered above, thanks for all the replies. Btw, also found this today on a property webpage from Samui

https://www.samuiforsale.com/other-miscellaneous/index-civil-and-commercial-code-of-thailand.html

[HHTel]

15 hours ago, Acharn said:

That means you cannot inherit land from your wife's estate if she predeceases you.

If your Thai wife predeceases you, then you inherit her assets as being the prime beneficiary.  Any land has to be sold within 365 days otherwise the land office will auction the land and you get the proceeds less their commission.

[cornishcarlos]

We have (she has) 4 plots of land and 2 loans. I have never signed any documents in relation to either !! 

All the money for plots has come from me and I cover loan repayments.

If she passes before me, insurance pays off the loans and Usufruct covers me. I would just transfer the title to her sister.

[Felt 35]

1 hour ago, HHTel said:

If your Thai wife predeceases you, then you inherit her assets as being the prime beneficiary.  Any land has to be sold within 365 days otherwise the land office will auction the land and you get the proceeds less their commission.

...and here Thai family get nothing......na

[tryasimight]

1 hour ago, Felt 35 said:

...and here Thai family get nothing......na

Really?.....you need to do some research 

[Acharn]

17 hours ago, HHTel said:

If your Thai wife predeceases you, then you inherit her assets as being the prime beneficiary.  Any land has to be sold within 365 days otherwise the land office will auction the land and you get the proceeds less their commission.

Ah, thanks for the correction/update/additional knowledge. I am often so interested in passing on stuff I've learned that I guess I sound like I'm trying to pass myself off as some kind of expert, which I don't intend to do.

[Felt 35]

16 hours ago, tryasimight said:

Really?.....you need to do some research 

theoretical laws and practice regarding land...no I really dont know and dont want either land or sign for anything I know to little about so this case is closed for me personally.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Felt 35

[Farangdanny]

Interesting. Some years ago I bought a small house in name of wife. At the land office I was asked to sign a paper. I was told it was permission for her to buy. I was also told that I would have to sign similar permission for her to sell. Still true? 

[Farangdanny]

Interesting. A few years age, I bought small house for my wife. At the Land Office, I was asked to sign a document, I was told it was permission for her to buy it. I was also told that I would have to sign another permission if she wanted to sell it. Still apply ?

[BEVUP]

On 7/10/2017 at 0:50 PM, Farangdanny said:

Interesting. A few years age, I bought small house for my wife. At the Land Office, I was asked to sign a document, I was told it was permission for her to buy it. I was also told that I would have to sign another permission if she wanted to sell it. Still apply ?

Not that I'm aware as she can do what she likes with it

Maybe the paper that you signed was that any monies given was a gift & that you have no financial interest in said property

Also do you have a Usufrut on it or anything of the likes - The land department may mean the signing of that to remove & it would be much easier to sell ( but can still sell or hock with it on if someone is willing to take the risk )

[Khun Jean]

On 7/8/2017 at 10:43 AM, HHTel said:

You're correct regarding the document you mentioned.  However, that document was never accepted by a court and has since disappeared.  The new document you sign states that the land is Sin Som Ros and it's value is split 50/50 upon divorce.

When did that happen? And this 'new' document is used since when??

Would this not be on all Thai related websites on the front page in huge letters!

As of July 1st 2017 i still had to sign a document stating the land is the Sin Suan Tua (personal non-marital property) of my wife and that i have no claim on it in any form.

 

A new document should not have to exist when it declares something is Sin Somros, as anything that is aquired during marriage is Sin Soros. A document is only to declare otherwise.

 

It is an extraordinary claim that needs extraordinary proof!

Edited July 16, 2017 by Khun Jean