Online payments no more possible for Swiss residents in Thailand using UBS e-banking.

[A and O]

Online payments no more possible for Swiss residents in Thailand using UBS e-banking.

The new rules are you have to contact the bank and pay 60.00 CHF for each local payment and 100.00 CHF for each international payment.

Is that also the case for you or only for me ?

Which bank are still serving well Swiss residents in Thailand ?

 

Thank you for your reply.

[swissie]

What does UBS supply as an answer, as to WHY? I am sure you must have questioned UBS concernig this matter in the meantime. Let us know.
Cheers.

[cooked]

Switch to Postfinance, no problems there (yet).

I parted company with UBS long ago when I was still working.

[A and O]

I made a small mistake in my first post. The new rules are you have to contact the bank and pay 60.00 CHF for each payment and it will increase 100.00 CHF for each payment very soon.

 

Thank you "cooked" for you reply, I will open an account with PostFinance. May I ask you: “Is your resident address at PostFinance in Thailand or in Switzerland”?

 

“swissie”, I will post a résumé once I gather more information from UBS. Thank you for your patience. “swissie”, can you tell me, can you make payment using your UBS account? Is your resident address at UBS in Thailand or in Switzerland”?

[Swiss1960]

The story comes from an article in Tagesanzeiger. Link to Tagesanzeiger is this: http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/wirtschaft/standarddie-ubs-verlangt-100-franken-fuer-eine-zahlung-ins-ausland/story/29309893 .I reside in Thailand and have my accounts and credit cards with UBS Switzerland, so I would be affected, but I am not and all of you who have e/banking are not affected also.

 

If you read the original article (https://insideparadeplatz.ch/2017/07/18/ubs-wucher-ausland-zahlung-kostet-100-fr/) then you see that it starts on 1 October 2017 (if ever) and it is only for "Einzig „Zahlungen, die via Brief, Telefon, Fax oder E-Mail in unstrukturierter Form (sprich ohne Verwendung eines UBS Formulars) aufgegeben“ würden, seien per 1. Oktober teurer."   Freely Translated "Only  payments that are initiated through snail mail, telephone, fax or e-mail (without using a UBS form) will get more expensive by 1 October"

 

It also clearly says "Es gebe alternativ „e-banking, Mobile Banking, Multimat sowie den standardisierten Zahlungsaufträgen UBS easy und UBS global“, alles „kostengünstige Alternativen“."  Freely translated "there are alternatives like e-banking, mobile banking, Mulimat (note: this is a machine within UBS bank buildings to initiate payments) as well as standardized UBS easy and UBS global payment instructions"

 

@swissie: the answer to "why" is partially given in the insideparadeplatz article. Non standardized payments need manual labour and that is what UBS of course wants to get rid of with those prices. 

 

Today, when I use e-banking for payments in Switzerland, i pay nothing. When I transfer money to Thailand, I pay 5 CHF per transfer with the option "all fees paid by receiver" and in Thailand, I pay the foreign exchange fee of 500 Baht. This will NOT change on 1 October.

 

Note: prices for services, i.e. transactions initiated by e-mail or snail mail etc are part of the Terms and Conditions (T&C or AGB Allgemeine Geschaeftsbedingungen in German) and if UBS would want to change the prices, they have to change the T&C and give it's customers advanced notice, otherwise it would be illegal to just change the service prices. And believe me: UBS will NOT change the prices without given previous notice to the customers, the question is only, do the customers READ the ABG (T&C) when they receive them....

 

So if you have e-banking, relax, sit back and take one more Singha... if you do not have e-banking (no matter UBS or other banks..), you are anyway doomed already.

 

And finally: If you already reside in Thailand, forget about opening an account with PostFinance, they are as bad as any other bank. Once you leave Switzerland and do not have an official Swiss address anymore, you will NOT be able to get bank accounts in Switzerland anymore (except if you have multi-million CHF...)

[A and O]

Dear Swiss1960,

 

What you wrote is maybe interesting or is interesting and you put a lot of time into it.

 

But the main (or only) subject of this post is:

"Online payments no more possible for Swiss residents in Thailand using UBS e-banking."

 

So to my eyes you miss the point and derive to something else.

 

The very secondary part is :
"The new rules are you have to contact the bank and pay 60.00 CHF for each local payment and 100.00 CHF for each international payment."

 

This was written to say that even UBS e-banking payments (online) are no more possible for people who have declared, as you are by law force to do, they true residence, which is in your or my case Thailand, it is still possible to make payments using other means but at high cost.

 

For me you did not address or even touch the main part of this post.
I also believe the banks are legally bound to check if you are truly resident of Switzerland or not and that there is an open channel between the Swiss authorities and the banks.

 

As a proof of that I have the following experience. When I left Switzerland in the past, the authorities (“Contrôle des habitants or Einwohnerkontrolle”) asked me where I was going, I had no clear idea at that stage where I was going to settle, so I told them an imaginary destination and I said “Quito, Ecuador”. Several years latter I received from one of my banks in Switzerland the form called in French "Déclaration de statut fiscal américain (personne physique) roughly translated in German as "US-Steuerstatus Erklärung (individuell)" and it was already written Quito, Equator as my address. The only place they could have got this information was from "La police de habitants” where you have to deposit your "Acte d'origine or Heimatschein" if you want to reside in Switzerland.
I believe that we will all at UBS be coming under this new restriction, which is “Payments no more possible for Swiss residents in Thailand using UBS e-banking”.

 

The “highest authorities” I could reach at UBS told me that this was decision was taken by UBS lawyers as they interpreted the Thai laws or law and decided this was the right decision to take for what they call “compliance” which mostly is a toll to control money laundering and so forth. That team of lawyers will never communicate the law or laws which they interpreted and how they interpreted those laws.

 

Kind regards,

 

Alpha Omega
 

[A and O]

Hello Everyone,
 
The main questions I have in mind for everyone who is at UBS.
As of today onward, can you still make payments using UBS e-banking (online) ?
Have you, as you are legally forced, declare your fiscal residence as Thailand (or is your fiscal residence in Switzerland) ?
For those who do not know, like me :
How to keep my fiscal residence in Switzerland and be resident here in Thailand ?

Kind regards,
 
Alpha Omega

[A and O]

Another question that arise and I am not kidding:

 

"Will the Swiss residents in Thailand still be permitted to have (Swiss) credit cards in the future and for how long?"

[Swiss1960]

1 hour ago, Alpha Omega said:

Hello Everyone,
 
The main questions I have in mind for everyone who is at UBS.
As of today onward, can you still make payments using UBS e-banking (online) ?
Have you, as you are legally forced, declare your fiscal residence as Thailand (or is your fiscal residence in Switzerland) ?
For those who do not know, like me :
How to keep my fiscal residence in Switzerland and be resident here in Thailand ?

Kind regards,
 
Alpha Omega

 

Dear Alpha Omega

 

Sorry to tell you, but you are fear mongering. I try to answer all your three latest posts:

1. 6 months before I left Switzerland, I went to my then account manager and told him about my plans and asked him to point me to the department / desk where my account will be taken care of when I live in Thailand. I was told that I will be allocated to UBS Switzerland, Wealth Management, International Clients, SE Asia.
2. Of course, I also had to go to the registry office (Einwohnerkontrolle), tell them where I go and when I arrived in Thailand, I registered with the Embassy. I scanned the document from the Embassy and sent it to my new account manager through e-banking. By the way, my "Heimatschein" is with me, the Embassy in Bangkok did not want to keep it, they only took a copy and then gave me an address confirmation. 
3. I was told that Thailand is not a fully compliant country, so certain transactions like direct stock trading will not be possible. But I have a managed portfolio, I have my current account, I have my credit cards with an account block of the credit limit amount and I have e-banking and can do everything I need.
4. I had to sign  various UBS papers about US and about tax responsibility over the years, some were sent to be in snail mail, some were sent to me in e-banking and I had to print, sign and send back in snail mail (original signature requirements) and yes, the whole FACTA stuff from the US had also to be signed by me. 
5. I am NOT tax resident in Switzerland. The address of my account in UBS is my Thai address. I receive snail mail and e-banking mails and all my account statements in e-banking. I am registered with voluntary AHV and pay annually from my UBS account through e-banking.
6. This year I was sending money forward and backward between Switzerland and Thailand. When I sent money to Thailand, I informed UBS that it is for property business, when I sent back, I did send a copy of the purchase and sell contract, so UBS could verify that it was legitimate business and NOT money laundering. 
7. TODAY I made a payment in e-banking to a NEW contact in Switzerland and I did it in 4 minutes, no fees, no hassle, no problems. AND THIS WILL NOT CHANGE FOR THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE!! The fees you keep mentioning are ONLY for transactions OUTSIDE e-banking

Summary:

• Fear Mongering. NO such fees for transactions using e-banking
• I am resident in Thailand for both address and fiscal and STILL have a UBS account without any issue. It is all about preparations. DO NOT start to live in Thailand and THEN start to think about banking relations... 
• NO fee changes have been announce for e-banking transactions and they will NOT be for the foreseeable future
• you can keep your credit cards when you have an account block - same I have here for my Thai credit cards
• my Thai bank as well as my Swiss bank both want to see reasons and proofs of money transfers in order to prevent money laundering, but when you do legitimate business, you have those documents and transfers are easy (don't ever forget to get a foreign exchange transaction document from your Thai bank)

Final remark: For the foreseeable future, no changes - not even within UBS - will be made for existing customers who have declared their new home and situation before they moved to Thailand and who have e-banking. Then only change is that fees for NOT e-banking transactions will be massively raised by UBS, but this does NOT impact me or any other UBS customer with e-banking.

 

[HampiK]

If you are Swiss, there are a few banks which are still very nice to people which life outside of Switzerland...

 

I would choose "Crédit Agricole". It's a french bank which have many branches mainly in the French part of switzerland.. but also have in Basel and Zurich a branch.

They ask for 15 CHF Fees per Month (with 20'000 CHF in average on the accounts it's even free). Doesn't matter if you life in Switzerland or a foreign Country.

I have there a transaction account, a saving account and e-banking with this bank. At the moment it seems one of the best choice for someone

 

I had PostFinance before. It's a very good bank as long you have a permanent address in Switzerland... as soon you have your address outside it's not that good anymore.... Also for other banks the fees per year is between 180 and 600 CHF.

 

Most banks in Switzerland not want have anything to do with Swiss person who have permanent address outside of Switzerland. These banks who still available for opening an account mostly ask for extreme fees.

 

[A and O]

Hello Swiss1960,

 

You gave a very clear and extended explanation and I think many of us will be help by what you wrote and all the details.

This is excellent, I am reaching my goal to share information, get some replies, by everyone, for everyone, some more eloquent that other. This is excellent.

 

You wrote: "Fear Mongering. NO such fees for transactions using e-banking"

May I ask you were and who ever mentioned "fees for transactions using e-banking" ?

 

Thank you very much for sharing so much.

[A and O]

Thank you "HampiK" for you helpful contribution.

[Swiss1960]

22 minutes ago, Alpha Omega said:

Hello Swiss1960,

 

You gave a very clear and extended explanation and I think many of us will be help by what you wrote and all the details.

This is excellent, I am reaching my goal to share information, get some replies, by everyone, for everyone, some more eloquent that other. This is excellent.

 

You wrote: "Fear Mongering. NO such fees for transactions using e-banking"

May I ask you were and who ever mentioned "fees for transactions using e-banking" ?

 

Thank you very much for sharing so much.

 

YOU did mention that, not directly but implicitly and several times when you wrote: "Online payments no more possible for Swiss residents in Thailand using UBS e-banking." and you continued "This was written to say that even UBS e-banking payments (online) are no more possible for people who have declared, as you are by law force to do, they true residence, which is in your or my case Thailand, it is still possible to make payments using other means but at high cost."

 

Both statements clearly untrue.

 

[swissie]

HI A&O,
this is about all the Info you can expect to get from a Forum. The "Banking-Matter" can only be settled with UBS directly.
Your Tax-Domicil: I don't think you can have 2 MAIN places of residence at the same time. The "Einwohneramt" is likely to ask you, where you will spend most of your time (Switzerland or Thailand.)
If it's Thailand = no more Taxes in Switzerland and no Taxes in Thailand. Most people would find this a "pleasant-situation".
Cheers.

[A and O]

All what I have written is the outcome of first been unable to make payments and numerous conversation with UBS only. Nothing is imaginary; nothing was created by me, not a single word.

 

Only the subject of “Credit cards use for Swiss not residing in Switzerland and possible restriction in the near or far future” was from other source that UBS.

After I could not make the payments using UBS e-banking, my scared I inner being said: “You have you credit cards, you are safe, you can access some money.” It is my credit cards this time that gave me a sense of security.

 

If my intention was to created fear, of course not. Go to your doctor and see how you react when he tells you the true and ask him the question: “Do you intend to created fear?”

My good doctor replied: “I understand that it is not an easy news. But is not better I tell you the true so that we can see what is offered by science today, you can educate yourself and then you can make your own decision?”

 

What I wrote could have been infuse with fear, because I was freaking out and wanted to know if we were all in the same shit or if someone new how to get out of it.

 

Farewell folks.

Edited July 23, 2017 by Alpha Omega

[theoldgit]

Post containing personal contact details in bank removed, this is against forum rules.

[Swiss1960]

Ok, A&O, here we go. My account manager already wrote back to me and told me this:

1. She is not aware of any compliance or other changes that would affect my ability to do transactions in e-banking.
2. She told me that in the second half of last week, there were issues in e-banking affecting customers, but they are resolved by now.
3. Not only can I still do transactions, e-banking has been enhanced and I can now even do my own trading, both through e-banking and mobile banking.

So I live in Thailand, my address with UBS is my Thai address, I am NOT anymore financial or legal resident in Switzerland anymore and I not only can do transactions national and international, but now I even can do some limited trading (have to read the T&C first) and btw have UBS credit cards as well that I can use without issues.

[A and O]

This is very good news.

Thank you again for the information.

It seems it is not the case for each and everyone lving in Thailand using UBS.

Good for you.

Edited July 24, 2017 by A and O

[A and O]

19 hours ago, Swiss1960 said:

I listened to the conversation, it sounds very strange. Changes in e-banking on 17 July because of "travel restrictions" in Thailand? UBS contacted "local lawyers" before they made such changes? Sounds not very believable, I know a bit about how risk & compliance does their job, as I had to implement a lot of the outcome... 

 

Again: I was able to do a e-banking transaction as of yesterday 23 July, so the date you have been given does not affect me. What I did now was write a mail to my UBS account manager and asking for clarification about the matter. When I hear back, I will post here. 

The recording is not so good; some words need to be check again. Earphones could be better.

 

However, I did not find the words "travel restrictions" in the recording.

 

The person in the recording says “we always also contact local lawyers” and not “contacted local lawyers", to me the “also” make a difference. Their decisions are not based on the opinions of local lawyers, but they also contact local lawyers.

 

Correct me if that is wrong, if I am wrong.

[A and O]

19 hours ago, theoldgit said:

Post containing personal contact details in bank removed, this is against forum rules.

I was ignorant of that rule wich is a good one. My apologies.

[cooked]

On 7/20/2017 at 9:29 AM, A and O said:

I made a small mistake in my first post. The new rules are you have to contact the bank and pay 60.00 CHF for each payment and it will increase 100.00 CHF for each payment very soon.

 

Thank you "cooked" for you reply, I will open an account with PostFinance. May I ask you: “Is your resident address at PostFinance in Thailand or in Switzerland”?

 

“swissie”, I will post a résumé once I gather more information from UBS. Thank you for your patience. “swissie”, can you tell me, can you make payment using your UBS account? Is your resident address at UBS in Thailand or in Switzerland”?

Sorry, I missed your question. Swissfinance very definitely has my Thai address as they occasionally need to send a new card. I do have to pay extra if I use the Postfinace card or make payments using that account.They also charge danger money as I live in Thailand. I can't use the credit card.

[cooked]

On 7/23/2017 at 3:19 PM, HampiK said:

If you are Swiss, there are a few banks which are still very nice to people which life outside of Switzerland...

 

I would choose "Crédit Agricole". It's a french bank which have many branches mainly in the French part of switzerland.. but also have in Basel and Zurich a branch.

They ask for 15 CHF Fees per Month (with 20'000 CHF in average on the accounts it's even free). Doesn't matter if you life in Switzerland or a foreign Country.

I have there a transaction account, a saving account and e-banking with this bank. At the moment it seems one of the best choice for someone

 

I had PostFinance before. It's a very good bank as long you have a permanent address in Switzerland... as soon you have your address outside it's not that good anymore.... Also for other banks the fees per year is between 180 and 600 CHF.

 

Most banks in Switzerland not want have anything to do with Swiss person who have permanent address outside of Switzerland. These banks who still available for opening an account mostly ask for extreme fees.

 

I can't compare Postfinance with other banking methods but I am perfectly content with their service to me since I am living here.

[HampiK]

1 minute ago, cooked said:

I can't compare Postfinance with other banking methods but I am perfectly content with their service to me since I am living here.

Also agrees with the fees they ask? They will ask 25 CHF Fees per account and month.

 

Yes the service from PostFinance is good... I told as long you stay in Switzerland it's a very good bank.. but the cost when you leave switzerland is extreme, compared with a few others. I pay now 0 CHF including a Maestro card for free (only have to pay 30 CHF every 5 year for the renewal of the card). Mastercards (Silver, Gold) are available as well from them.

 

And if you want do some trading... (I am not interested in this) I think this is also available by the online....