Q & A from the TAT about reports that some tourists were refused entry to Thailand

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

5 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

Yes it is within the rules.  But the enforcement of it is  arbitrary a lot of the time.

Not sure that insisting upon cash is though.

 

Speaking of the requiring cash episodes, and not accepting other financial proof, here's Richard's TAT #5 Q and A, which gets my award as B.S. non-answer of the day, or maybe even week:

 

[lkv]

17 minutes ago, Chou Anou said:

It would be interesting if it were indeed true that all of this panic could be traced back to exactly two highly suspect ThaiVisa threads last week, made by members with very low post counts (always a potential red flag), and one more post that seems like it may be more valid and believable (the Muy Thai fighter guy).  I wouldn't be surprised at all if that were the case.  "Pandemic," indeed.  And even if all three reports are credible, let's not forget that each of them ADMITTED to having done multiple visa-free entries in a row...so, this is NOT tourists we're talking about here, it's people trying to game the system. 

The Muay Thai guy's Facebook is public, anybody can read his posts and the comments on his posts. It's unlikely it's a hoax. Has pictures from his fights in Thailand etc. He says he already has a baby with a Thai woman that he wanted to get an US passport for, but I don't think he is in very good terms with the mother (and that's actually the main reason he came he says, to sort out the US passport for the baby). However, he could not wait to "come back home" (Thailand = home) on a 30 day visa exempt, that he had no problems with many times in the past.

 

Also, knowing that Thais judge on appearances first before any red warnings whatever, this kid's appearance, as I have said before, did not do him any favours.

 

And he was broke. Easy to pick out of the crowd.

 

In regards to why Immi is doing this, it's to remind us probably of our status of "guests" and that we are fortunate to breathe Thai air. Not the first time they are pulling these stunts, every year or couple of years they do. Then things go back to where they were.

Edited July 21, 2017 by lkv

[perthperson]

20 minutes ago, lkv said:

Then things go back to where they were.

 

Mmmm  

 

Where can double/triple tourist visas be obtained?  Are Ed visas a soft option ?  How many visa exempt runs can be done by land ? etc. 

 

When will things go back to "where they were"? 

Edited July 21, 2017 by perthperson
correction of typo

[lkv]

Just now, perthperson said:

 

Mmmm  

 

Where can double/triple tourist visas obtained?  Are Ed visas a soft option ?  How many visa exempt runs can be done by land ? etc. 

 

When will things go back to "where they were"? 

I was referring to the 20K crackdown.

 

In regards to double/triple being taken out, that's why they have reinvented Elite. To give people an option to be a never ending tourist for up to 20 years.

 

Just imagine how many temples one can visit in 20 years, with employment prohibited.

 

Concerning ED visas, there is one school for example liked by the current administration, where they get a cut I guess, where one can study self defense, only Saturday and Sunday. Or perhaps only one out of two. Or maybe not attend at all.

 

Also, one can nowadays take Thai cooking classes, they can study Chinese, they can study French.

 

So many options.

 

It's just wonderful.

[hawker9000]

10 hours ago, jeab1980 said:

Consulates as im aware i will stand corrected if wrong make money by issuing visa's so heres the rub they will issue visa's even seeing a string of exempt or S/M Visa's in someones passport.

They make their money whether they issue the visa or not; the application fee is non-refundable - as I suspect you well know - and you really can't miss that oft-repeated notice during the process.  If this B20K thing were one tenth as well publicized as the non-refundable application fee, it wouldn't be an issue at all...   But I agree that it's the tourist visa and visa-exempt abusers that have made life difficult for everyone else.  Unfortunately but predictably, the B20K thing is pretty easy for these serial abusers to "figure out", so now the cash check quickly evolves into something that pretty much only burdens those playing by the rules and haven't been to Thailand 50 times so as to be aware of these new and quaint little customs.

 

.

[bberrythailand]

Perfect Thai way ! Asking explanation to someone who knows nothing. but anyway, the reply is not so important for Thai, so it's ok...

 

 

[gk10002000]

Still, 20,000 baht is about 600 USD.  For a casual tourist coming in for a week that is not an inconsequential amount.  Many people don't routinely carry around that much cash.  Many people here in the USA are living paycheck to paycheck and the idea of getting 600 USD in nice new 100 dollar bills is not easy or routine.  And some people transit through Thailand perhaps planning to stay just a few days, charge the hotel to their credit card or already have paid for the hotel through Agoda or whatever else online.   But as long as the Thai officials are a little bit flexible, allow one to get to an ATM or things like that, things will be OK.

[Thaidream]

The problem is that there is no  ATM machine prior to Immigration and they must know this. I am sure banks would provide a machine if requested.  They are using the lack of cash to ferret out those who fit a profile of individuals who may be working or looking for work.

[jeab1980]

1 hour ago, Thaidream said:

The problem is that there is no  ATM machine prior to Immigration and they must know this. I am sure banks would provide a machine if requested.  They are using the lack of cash to ferret out those who fit a profile of individuals who may be working or looking for work.

Whos going to refill the machines airside?

[brewsterbudgen]

Pandemic enough that the UK tabloid have been running stories of refusals at border crossing and airports and advising everyone to ensure they have the sufficient funds at hand, to avoid disappointment.
As already reported there are no ATM's before Immigration.

I think have been two documented examples. The UK tabloids will print anything.

[jeab1980]

1 hour ago, gk10002000 said:

Still, 20,000 baht is about 600 USD.  For a casual tourist coming in for a week that is not an inconsequential amount.  Many people don't routinely carry around that much cash.  Many people here in the USA are living paycheck to paycheck and the idea of getting 600 USD in nice new 100 dollar bills is not easy or routine.  And some people transit through Thailand perhaps planning to stay just a few days, charge the hotel to their credit card or already have paid for the hotel through Agoda or whatever else online.   But as long as the Thai officials are a little bit flexible, allow one to get to an ATM or things like that, things will be OK.

 When i was in home country as a tourist going to any country before i go i look at the exchange rates in the travel agents/banks ect.

I then looked on line expat sites anything i could find about my destination exchange rate wise usualy found something.

If like here the exchange rate was better in country i would change say £50 at a bank before i left carrying cash or travellers cheques usually cash as travellers cheque sometimes incur a charge for changing. I would then change in country at my leisure. I still do that now zlthough traveling out of country here has almost come to a full stop save visa runs for new 90 days or a new visa. I do however and have always done carry 20k bht minimum with me when i do border bounce. Also on my phone pictures of marriage certificate/kor ror 2 which I update every 6 months/blue and yellow tabien/ive also got the usual passport pics on there but dont need them in this case. Be prepared for the unexpected and you wont go far wrong here

[jeab1980]

6 hours ago, lkv said:

The Muay Thai guy's Facebook is public, anybody can read his posts and the comments on his posts. It's unlikely it's a hoax. Has pictures from his fights in Thailand etc. He says he already has a baby with a Thai woman that he wanted to get an US passport for, but I don't think he is in very good terms with the mother (and that's actually the main reason he came he says, to sort out the US passport for the baby). However, he could not wait to "come back home" (Thailand = home) on a 30 day visa exempt, that he had no problems with many times in the past.

 

Also, knowing that Thais judge on appearances first before any red warnings whatever, this kid's appearance, as I have said before, did not do him any favours.

 

And he was broke. Easy to pick out of the crowd.

 

In regards to why Immi is doing this, it's to remind us probably of our status of "guests" and that we are fortunate to breathe Thai air. Not the first time they are pulling these stunts, every year or couple of years they do. Then things go back to where they were.

How was he easily picked out from the crowd ?

I had a very quick glance over his pictures on FB. Only saw 3 or 4 where he had clothes on (most are of him in shorts training) he looked like any normal person would look in his jeans and shirt. How he could be easily identified is a mystery to me. Or do you really think he will come through in his Muay Thai shorts?

 

Edited July 22, 2017 by jeab1980

[mngmn]

16 hours ago, jimster said:

Other countries vet quite considerably at the visa application stage and thus have little reason to waste time and resources at airport immigration - it's mainly when tourist visa holders are found to be coming for work that they get caught at immigration, which rarely seems to be the case in Thailand.

Have often seen people getting the third degree from Australian immigration even though they have valid visas.

[BritTim]

1 hour ago, jeab1980 said:

3 hours ago, Thaidream said:

The problem is that there is no  ATM machine prior to Immigration and they must know this. I am sure banks would provide a machine if requested.  They are using the lack of cash to ferret out those who fit a profile of individuals who may be working or looking for work.

Whos going to refill the machines airside?

The same people who refill the airside ATM machines for departing passengers.

[jeab1980]

13 minutes ago, BritTim said:

The same people who refill the airside ATM machines for departing passengers.

There a big diffrence people in departures have cleared customs and immigration. People in arrivals have not cleared immigration or customs big big diffrence.

[BritTim]

4 minutes ago, jeab1980 said:

There a big diffrence people in departures have cleared customs and immigration. People in arrivals have not cleared immigration or customs big big diffrence.

I am not sure I understand your point. People getting US$ from an ATM machine at their departure airport have also not passed Thai immigration and customs. Using an ATM machine to get US$ on arrival seems completely equivalent. Or, perhaps you are referring to some other factor with the traveler or those servicing the ATM machines that I am missing?

[Tanoshi]

7 minutes ago, jeab1980 said:

There a big diffrence people in departures have cleared customs and immigration. People in arrivals have not cleared immigration or customs big big diffrence.

What are you rambling about.

The ATM's are filled by Thai personnel, with security clearance and escorted by airport security.

 

There not flying in and out, don't need to clear customs and certainly not Immigration.

I fear you're taking too many of those laxatives.

 

[jeab1980]

6 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

What are you rambling about.

The ATM's are filled by Thai personnel, with security clearance and escorted by airport security.

 

There not flying in and out, don't need to clear customs and certainly not Immigration.

I fear you're taking too many of those laxatives.

 

Ifvyou say so cant be bothered. The fact is there are non. So theres a reason why there are non

 But hey your the resident expert. You seem to think.

[JackThompson]

2 hours ago, brewsterbudgen said:

I think have been two documented examples. The UK tabloids will print anything.

Two in the last week.  Many more reported here over the past few years - almost always "didn't have the money" cases on ED, TR, or Visa-Exempts, where the person wasn't allowed to withdraw the money to show. 

 

6 hours ago, hawker9000 said:

They make their money whether they issue the visa or not; the application fee is non-refundable - as I suspect you well know - and you really can't miss that oft-repeated notice during the process.  If this B20K thing were one tenth as well publicized as the non-refundable application fee, it wouldn't be an issue at all...   But I agree that it's the tourist visa and visa-exempt abusers that have made life difficult for everyone else.  Unfortunately but predictably, the B20K thing is pretty easy for these serial abusers to "figure out", so now the cash check quickly evolves into something that pretty much only burdens those playing by the rules and haven't been to Thailand 50 times so as to be aware of these new and quaint little customs.

The "fee paid whether yes or no" rule is true for many/most consulates world-wide.  But note that Lao consulates usually don't take the money if they won't accept what you submitted. Based on the reports I have read, other consulates close to Thailand are similar - usually rejecting an application before accepting payment.

 

Those who do not have frequent and/or longer-term stays here in their immigration-history are not being asked to show the money - so not being inconvenienced.

Those who have stayed here longer term - even if they have been gone from Thailand for weeks or months since - are the ones being asked to show the money. 

Anyone with frequent and/or long-term stay will simply use points-of-entry that follow the law - not airports - and also carry the cash, as you pointed out. 

 

The difficult question, is someone who is "in the middle" - because the non-rules which trigger enforcement are not public and appear to be "invented" on the spot.  Based on reports, these rules may include "Too many Tourist Visas" (how many is too many over what time-span?) and "Over 180 Days Stay in a Year" (maybe even last year).  Because the rules are not published, it's just a guess whether some have "crossed the line" or not, which will force many to use land-crossings out of an abundance of caution.

 

In the world before ATM machines, showing "cash or travelers checks" on entry made more sense, because that is how most people financed their stays when traveling.  Nowadays, people self-financing their trip with carried-cash is a very remote possibility.  Given the law does not specify cash, enforcement of the rule should reflect how people obtain funds in today's world.  But, as I think most will agree, the question being asked isn't really a question of, "Do they have the money."  What we are seeing is: "We do not have 'officers discretion' to reject entry in Thailand by law, and we want to reject this guy who 'stays here too much', so which rule can we use to justify rejecting this guy?"

[perthperson]

4 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Anyone with frequent and/or long-term stay will simply use points-of-entry that follow the law - not airports

Nonsense !

 

I legally stay in Thailand and have done so for over a decade. During this time I have left and returned on many occasions using the airports without experiencing any problem at all. The same applies to millions of others whether long stay or short term tourista. 

 

How would you advise someone travelling from Australia, Europe, the UK or the USA to enter/leave the country if Thailand's airports are to be avoided? 

 

You are inflating a minor issue which only involves a few 'ne'er do wells' who are attempting to scam the system.

[JackThompson]

37 minutes ago, perthperson said:

Nonsense !

 

I legally stay in Thailand and have done so for over a decade. During this time I have left and returned on many occasions using the airports without experiencing any problem at all. The same applies to millions of others whether long stay or short term tourista. 

 

How would you advise someone travelling from Australia, Europe, the UK or the USA to enter/leave the country if Thailand's airports are to be avoided? 

 

You are inflating a minor issue which only involves a few 'ne'er do wells' who are attempting to scam the system.

The discussion is in the context of ED, TR Visa and Visa-Exempt entries.  Yes, those with longer-stays on those are more likely to be questioned, and may even be denied entry.  Those on a Non-O, Non-B, etc will have a different experience. 

 

Those coming from Europe, who have spent significant time here on ED, TR, Exempt, and think their plans could be ruined by attempting entry by air, should fly to a neighboring country and come through a land-border.  There is a nice, fast train from Penang, for example, and connecting flights from Hat-Yai after entering Thailand.

 

For more context, here is a case of a fellow who was out of the country for 7 months, but had a previous longer-stay, which triggered a "computer alert" of some sort (June 17th, 2017):

 

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/988184-immigration-questioned-me-computer-show-up/

On 6/17/2017 at 2:08 AM, 2road said:

hi

in 2016 i spent 11 months in thailand. i stayed legally with a tourist visa that I was renewing every 3 months at different embassies in Lao. in Nov 2016 i left Th for Vietnam

After working in Vietnam for 7 months I flew back to TH today and as the immigration officer was turning the pages of my passport back and forth for 5min then said: "computer show up".

Another officer with better english showed up and asked to follow her then said: 
"no work in your country?" "how long you stay"
"why in TH so long? u can only stay 90 days in a year".

 

So, we have a made-up rule (90 days / yr), retroactively enforced (on a 2016 stay), to spite a long stay out of the country (7 mo), and if you read that thread further, one factor which may have allowed him in, was showing a Vietnamese work-permit to "prove" he did not "intend to work" here (since he had been gone 7 months, couldn't have been holding-down a job during that period), to spite Thai law saying nothing about "suspicion" being a justifiable reason for denial of entry. 

Edited July 22, 2017 by JackThompson

[perthperson]

4 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

So, we have a made-up rule (90 days / yr), retroactively enforced (on a 2016 stay), t

Did you actually witness this alleged incident ?  If not you are making rumour out of a one sided unevidenced anecdote.

 

Again you are attempting to inflate a minor issue involving a  couple of "ne'er do wells" into something it is not. Millions of people enter Thailand and never experience any problem at the airport or anywhere else. 

 

[JackThompson]

4 minutes ago, perthperson said:

Did you actually witness this alleged incident ?  If not you are making rumour out of a one sided unevidenced anecdote.

Again you are attempting to inflate a minor issue involving a  couple of "ne'er do wells" into something it is not. Millions of people enter Thailand and never experience any problem at the airport or anywhere else. 

Please explain what this guy did to make him a "ne'er do well" if you are going to accuse him of being one.  Like many of us, he followed the rules/laws, did not overstay, etc. 

I didn't witness it -  HE did.  It is HIS post I referenced.  The purpose of this forum is for people to share their experiences, so we can all learn from them. 

[overherebc]

18 hours ago, jeab1980 said:

Well thats not available at present. For those under 50 who want to spend money? Please explain who these people are please. 

Well one of those people is a friend of mine who is in and out a lot 3 to 5 times a year and never bothers with a visa. He's mid forties, built up and sold a business in UK and is sitting on over a mil' UK in the bank. He could go the Elite route but I suppose wont spend the cash, and complains how little he can get in interest on it.

He's not sure if he will continue coming here so if he paid up front for Elite then decided on not coming back 6 months or a year later here he reckons it would be wasted money.

[perthperson]

8 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

The purpose of this forum is for people to share their experiences, so we can all learn from them. 

The problem is that some use TV anecdotes to fuel their Conspiracy Theories. 

[JackThompson]

5 minutes ago, perthperson said:

The problem is that some use TV anecdotes to fuel their Conspiracy Theories. 

The problem is, some people come here to insult other people with name-calling.

[Tanoshi]

20 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Please explain what this guy did to make him a "ne'er do well" if you are going to accuse him of being one.  Like many of us, he followed the rules/laws, did not overstay, etc. 

I didn't witness it -  HE did.  It is HIS post I referenced.  The purpose of this forum is for people to share their experiences, so we can all learn from them. 

He was obviously 'flagged' because of his 11 month stay on TV's the previous year.

 

Whilst renewing my extension last month, another applicant who was applying for a 30 day extension to his TV was refused on the grounds 'he would exceed 180 days staying in Thailand and to apply for the correct Visa if he wanted to reside in Thailand'.

 

Thailand needs to be clearer on it's policies and regulations if these indiscriminate experiences are to be stopped.

No matter what method of entry is used, foreigners need to know where they stand legally from an Immigration viewpoint.

[jeab1980]

37 minutes ago, overherebc said:

Well one of those people is a friend of mine who is in and out a lot 3 to 5 times a year and never bothers with a visa. He's mid forties, built up and sold a business in UK and is sitting on over a mil' UK in the bank. He could go the Elite route but I suppose wont spend the cash, and complains how little he can get in interest on it.

He's not sure if he will continue coming here so if he paid up front for Elite then decided on not coming back 6 months or a year later here he reckons it would be wasted money.

So if he doesnt know what he wants to do no visa will help him will it

[overherebc]

2 minutes ago, jeab1980 said:

So if he doesnt know what he wants to do no visa will help him will it

Probably a 10 year multi entry similar to the one for USA my wife has in her passport that didn't cost a million baht.

[perthperson]

5 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Whilst renewing my extension last month, another applicant who was applying for a 30 day extension to his TV was refused on the grounds 'he would exceed 180 days staying in Thailand and to apply for the correct Visa if he wanted to reside in Thailand'.

 

That is interesting because 180 days could(theoretically) be amassed quite legally with an METV.

 

Perhaps that applicants passport revealed a mass of visa exempt and SETVs ?