BUPA Thailand - Warning

[teddog]

Just now, tonray said:

People tend to look at insurance the wrong way, you are not buying health procedure coverage, you are buying protection for your savings and assets. If you have nothing and are over 65, then perhaps not having insurance makes sense. But if you have any large assets, house, condo, savings accounts in the millions of baht....you are protecting them from complete wipeout from an illness that probability says you are likely to be felled by as you age.

 

Yeah...I would love to have an extra 6 or 7000 baht a month for wine and steaks and whatever..but then I would be risking an entire life's hard work by being careless now.

2

Would cost one hell of a lot more than 6 to 7 thousand to get good cover,one hell of a lot more,and if looking at total wipe out through illness then yes,it's total ,no matter how much coverage you have, medivac no help because it's not there.

  2 hours away from the finest and cheapest medical procedures the world can offer, hundreds of 000s flock there from the world over, and here we are just 2 hours away from it and stuck in an overpriced rip off of a medical joint.  Stick with it

[tonray]

1 minute ago, teddog said:

Would cost one hell of a lot more than 6 to 7 thousand to get good cover,one hell of a lot more,and if looking at total wipe out through illness then yes,it's total ,no matter how much coverage you have, medivac no help because it's not there.

  2 hours away from the finest and cheapest medical procedures the world can offer, hundreds of 000s flock there from the world over, and here we are just 2 hours away from it and stuck in an overpriced rip off of a medical joint.  Stick with it

You should start a Medical Tourism company for Thai based expats. You can pilot a raft across the Indian Ocean because there is less risk than not having coverage.

[teddog]

Just now, tonray said:

You should start a Medical Tourism company for Thai based expats. You can pilot a raft across the Indian Ocean because there is less risk than not having coverage.

20 or so years out of the UK  no cover, now a positive saving there, a massive one Id say, an ever increasing one too,get to 60  or even 65   now see if the same reasoning is still there

[Sheryl]

For those who do not have much in the way of assets, they  are also buying:

 

• Not having to end up in a hospital that won't discharge you (or release your body as the case may be) because your bill is unpaid
•  
• Not having to go on hands and knees begging to every relative, near and far, that you have or otherwise becoming a huge burden to them
•  
• Not having to go on "gofundme" begging strangers to help you (or your survivors) out of a mess you could and should have prevented
•  
• Not having to sign a installment plan repayment contract that will leave you in sever poverty for years and years - or force you to flee Thailand and never return because you couldn't make the payments (and they WILL file charges and alert immigration)

Every single one of the above things has happened, multiple times, to expats here.  I have seen horror story after horror story and that is why I harp on the subject.

 

200K will barely cover an appendectomy in a private hospital, and for really catastrophic accidents or events bills in govt hospitals can easily reach 2-3 million.

 

As mentioned before, self insurance is fine if done properly. That means minimum 3 million baht, preferrably 5,  put aside or in liquid assets you are prepared to use, plus a plan for what you will do when that amount is gone, because don't forget that with insurance even after a maximum claim, you are still insured for future events. With self-insurance, once it is gone, it's gone. Basically the only people who can do this are wealthy people. For them it may indeed make sense to take the gamble (assuming they are OK with risk of losing  millions of baht). Odds are that they'll come out ahead but they also may not, it is a roll of the dice. The older you are when you start that gamble the more likely you are to lose.

 

Ironically in my experience wealthy people tend to be more risk adversive and prudent. It's those who are completely without a viable plan for coping with it who seem to go for this sort of risk.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JLCrab]

My experience with wealthy people -- and I mean oil well type wealthy people -- is that they love a situation with an upside i.e. the potential to get a whole lot more out of it than you put in.

[teddog]

Just now, Sheryl said:

For those who do not have much in the way of assets, they  are also buying:

 

• Not having to end up in a hospital that won't discharge you (or release your body as the case may be) because your bill is unpaid
•  
• Not having to go on hands and knees begging to every relative, near and far, that you have or otherwise becoming a huge burden to them
•  
• Not having to go on "gofundme" begging strangers to help you (or your survivors) out of a mess you could and should have prevented
•  
• Not having to sign a installment plan repayment contract that will leave you in sever poverty for years and years - or force you to flee Thailand and never return because you couldn't make the payments (and they WILL file charges and alert immigration)

Every single one of the above things has happened, multiple times, to expats here.  I have seen horror story after horror story and that is why I harp on the subject.

 

200K will barely cover an appendectomy in a private hospital, and for really catastrophic accidents or events bills in govt hospitals can easily reach 2-3 million.

 

As mentioned before, self insurance is fine if done properly. That means minimum 3 million baht, preferrably 5,  put aside or in liquid assets you are prepared to use, plus a plan for what you will do when that amount is gone, because don't forget that with insurance even after a maximum claim, you are still insured for future events. With self-insurance, once it is gone, it's gone. Basically the only people who can do this are wealthy people. For them it may indeed make sense to take the gamble (assuming they are OK with risk of losing  millions of baht). Odds are that they'll come out ahead but they also may not, it is a roll of the dice. The older you are when you start that gamble the more likely you are to lose.

 

Ironically in my experience wealthy people tend to be more risk adversive and prudent. It's those who are completely without a viable plan for coping with it who seem to go for this sort of risk.

 

 

 

 

 

 

All that assumes Sheryl you wish to stay in Thailand receiving treatment   Planning is of the essence  here I agree,and part of the planning is to get the hell out of Thailand ASAP to receive that treatment, choosing the airline that will do the short hop,or even the long hop at a more than reasonable price, and yes I have planned for the ultimate trip.   As for cancer,cataract treatment, that part is pre planned elective surgery, it sure as hell would not be in Thailand, and finally body not released?  well laughingly that is debatable...anyway Im off for a swim,gotta keep as fit as possibly can

[Sheryl]

We have been through this before Teddog. The idea that you will always be able to fly to India for your health care needs is simply not realistic. The biggest ticket items hit suddenly and often leave you incapable of speaking let alone arranging to fly anywhere and you would not be fit to fly.

 

Again, speaking from experience having helped a  lot of people wanting to fly back to their home countries (or fly an incapacited ill relative back). It is frought with difficulties and also extremely expensive.

 

Elective procedures for someone fit enough to fly, sure.  But keel over at the BTS stop with a massive stroke or heart attack, or get totaled by a car,  and you will wake up already in massive debt and unfit to travel. Happens all the time.

[JLCrab]

Sounds like a better plan is to just move to India and save on the repeated air fares.

[teddog]

Just now, Sheryl said:

We have been through this before Teddog. The idea that you will always be able to fly to India for your health care needs is simply not realistic. The biggest ticket items hit suddenly and often leave you incapable of speaking let alone arranging to fly anywhere and you would not be fit to fly.

 

Again, speaking from experience having helped a  lot of people wanting to fly back to their home countries (or fly an incapacited ill relative back). It is frought with difficulties and also extremely expensive.

 

Elective procedures for someone fit enough to fly, sure.  But keel over at the BTS stop with a massive stroke or heart attack, or get totaled by a car,  and you will wake up already in massive debt and unfit to travel. Happens all the time.

Well I just hope I do not end up in a private hospital...for their sake   Thanks Sheryl   ..end of ..  'bye  love you too  xxx

[richard_smith237]

42 minutes ago, teddog said:

Well I just hope I do not end up in a private hospital...for their sake   Thanks Sheryl   ..end of ..  'bye  love you too  xxx

 

It seems your 'self insurance' is primarily based in 'hope'.... 

 

All interesting input to the debate - however, its not really advisable for anyone to consider.

 

In my early 30's I suffered a DVT after football injury (I was very fit and active), this DVT migrated into my lungs a Pulmonary Emobolism - I was medivacced to Singapore where I spent 10 days in hospital. 

The same year Serena Williams (world No1 Tennis player) also encounter a Pulmonary Embolism. 

 

It doesn't matter how fit or healthy you are or think you are, anything can happen at any time... it can be debilitating, life threatening or life changing and you may not have time to plan ahead... in fact when 'something' happens what you won't have is time to plan ahead otherwise you could have planned to avoid the issue / event / injury / accident. 

 

Hoping something won't happen is not insurance. As Sheryl clearly and concisely mentions earlier in the thread - self insurance is ok if you are extremely affluent and have 5 Million Baht readily accessible, but this still comes with significant flaws, how can someone else access this money for your benefit / treatment if you are too unwell to do so yourself?

 

Thus those who suggest they are 'self insured' may not have adequately thought through their options, especially in the event of a life threatening or debilitating emergency.

Edited August 21, 2017 by richard_smith237

[Sheryl]

2 hours ago, teddog said:

Well I just hope I do not end up in a private hospital...for their sake   Thanks Sheryl   ..end of ..  'bye  love you too  xxx

Actually they are quite skilled at making it your  problem rather than theirs.

 

As many a hardy soul has found out the hard way.

[Aforek]

On ‎20‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 11:22 AM, teddog said:

. Never had medical insurance never will, pressured into thoughts that xyz may happen,undoubly never will, accident insured if young enough, 

 

I am 67, all my life very good health, doing exercise every day, no drink, no smoking, I didn't visit a doctor for 6 or 7 years

on 1st of august, for a paper to send  to my embassy, I went to the public hospital of my place to have a health certificate ; to do it, they wanted to have a blood pressure inspection, I thought no need, but after all if they want , they can do it 

 I had a very, very high blood pressure, they wanted to keep me for the night ( I didn't feel anything ) 

the day after they made blood, heart , urine inspection  and they found I have diabet ( not much ) after a second blood check  , now I take medecine for hypertension and diabet , I am well as usual  , ( but what could have happened in several years without knowing it ? ) and I have two medical insurances for many years that I almost never used

 

what I mean is that you don't know what can happen, even if, like me, you think everything ok, maybe something silent  happens in your body , like hypertension, diabet, cancer and you feell nothing 

don't say , it can't happen to me ; I would have never thought I could have diabet 

Edited August 21, 2017 by Aforek

[pauleddy]

Im 62 and my BUPA Platinum was 114,000b premium this year. Not sure if you can escape the clutches after many years! You get locked in.

 

However, they always process smaller stuff no worries and even a foot operation.

 

About 5 years ago I had a bum tube and some polyps done at an expensive place. My premium went up 10% the next year. A shock really, because you pay huge money for top end, and do not expect to pay more. Not my fault that polyps were there.

 

Eddy

[teddog]

On 8/21/2017 at 8:46 PM, Aforek said:

I am 67, all my life very good health, doing exercise every day, no drink, no smoking, I didn't visit a doctor for 6 or 7 years

on 1st of august, for a paper to send  to my embassy, I went to the public hospital of my place to have a health certificate ; to do it, they wanted to have a blood pressure inspection, I thought no need, but after all if they want , they can do it 

 I had a very, very high blood pressure, they wanted to keep me for the night ( I didn't feel anything ) 

the day after they made blood, heart , urine inspection  and they found I have diabet ( not much ) after a second blood check  , now I take medecine for hypertension and diabet , I am well as usual  , ( but what could have happened in several years without knowing it ? ) and I have two medical insurances for many years that I almost never used

 

what I mean is that you don't know what can happen, even if, like me, you think everything ok, maybe something silent  happens in your body , like hypertension, diabet, cancer and you feell nothing 

don't say , it can't happen to me ; I would have never thought I could have diabet 

That is why regular medical check-ups are essential, earliest sign anything amiss treatment or exit from.  Thailand can be planned One thing that would have me leaving,cancer, not battling that insidious monster, not in Thailand, got to go back home for that one. 

  Thought I was covered for medivac through past employment, find out today covered for everything leading up to medivac, that's good, but the big C would have me quaking in my boots

[HampiK]

3 hours ago, pauleddy said:

About 5 years ago I had a bum tube and some polyps done at an expensive place. My premium went up 10% the next year. A shock really, because you pay huge money for top end, and do not expect to pay more. Not my fault that polyps were there.

This 10% increase was becaus of the insurance usage.. or maybe because you hit the age band? Many insurance company have a great increase every 5 years.

So you will se a big step up with 55, then again with 60, 65, 70 and so on.... so this could be because of that and not because you used it..... Only guessing

[pauleddy]

No, it wasnt an age thing. I was somewhere between 55 and 60, and not booked for another increase for 2 yrs.

 

In the very small print, you can find that BUPA will increase the next premium (even for Platinum Cover) if it thinks you had something large done--at their discretion. Nobody tells you this, and you have to dig.

 

It's bad really. When you choose and pay the Top Product, you don't want this, despite the excuses they rattle off.

 

I know that Car premiums go up and you lose the No Claims if you claim. But, if you are sick, you pay to protect yourself. in full, hopefully.

 

Apart from the usual HIV and booze exclusions there are others. For instance, I believe they will not pay for false legs or arms. All plastic joints are excluded apart from the common hip replacement, and I think the knee joint.

[Sheryl]

This is a major issue with Thai-issued insurance. The regulatory framework for health insurance in this country is weak and there are no limits on an insurer raising sates, as high as they want, for an individual person on an individual basis. It is not done because you had a large claim per se, it is done because your "risk profile" has changed, or they think it has.  You can imagine what would happen if you developed cancer or other condition sure to entail big bills in coming years. They will essentially price you out, making the lifetime guaranteed coverage not worth much.

 

For this reason Thai-based insurance not a good idea for people without a fall back plan in case of developing a chronic condition.

 

I switched from BUPA Thailand to a UK-issued policy for this exact reason.

[coops]

It's also worth pointing out non-Thai health insurance doesn't (tend) to have such egregious exclusions such as HIV coverage.

[Sheryl]

They handle exclusions in a more medically informed way.

[Global Guy]

I've had BUPA in the past and my overall experience with Thai health insurance companies is, first, they will write as many exclusions as possible before you sign up. They do as little as possible to help cover you. I have found this to be true of all the companies I inquired. Maybe there is some crazy high priced insurance that covers a lot but I haven't seen it.

 

I even had one tell me that it is Thai law that I have to buy a life insurance plan from them if I get their health insurance. And....they didn't tell me about it until I found it buried in their quote. I asked about the extra change for a life insurance policy that I did not ask for, the guy (English guy) said it was Thai law and they have to include a life insurance policy to give me health insurance. 

 

I said, that's funny...my last health insurance company didn't insist on any mandatory life insurance policy so I know it's not a law. He stuttered and I can tell he was lying so I got off the phone.

 

Overall, when I needed surgery for some lingering problems from an accident, I went back home where I'm covered 100%. My insurance here is basically to cover any catastrophic stuff (2 million baht inpatient coverage), enough so I can get patched up and cleared to fly back home if I need additional work (major surgery) not covered here. I've done this three times in 2.5 years and it worked out very well financially, I had a chance to visit my family, and they helped me recuperate. But, it's not my preferred way to go about medical treatment.

 

But the coverage here just isn't that good for foreigners. Again, in my experience. If someone has a great story where their health insurance covers pretty much everything (minus the usual suicide/drug overdose/skydiving accident sort of stuff) and isn't crazy expensive, then please share your story here!

 

Anyway

[pauleddy]

In the space of one year, I needed polyps removed (nothing special for a GI or Colon Surgeon), although I did choose Samitevej Sukh, so it was 80,000b. The same year, I needed a Morton's Neuroma (an overgrown nerve tumour, not a cancer) removed from my foot. This time I chose BNH, about 40,000-50,000. These were unavoidable pathology--not wished for and not caused by accidents, drugs, HIV or anything at all. Lo and behold my next BUPA premium went up 25,000b even though I was 57 with no increase due. It is criminal----call it loss adjustment, medical profiling, or what you will. 

[Sheryl]

On 9/21/2017 at 7:15 PM, Global Guy said:

I've had BUPA in the past and my overall experience with Thai health insurance companies is, first, they will write as many exclusions as possible before you sign up. They do as little as possible to help cover you. I have found this to be true of all the companies I inquired. Maybe there is some crazy high priced insurance that covers a lot but I haven't seen it.

 

I even had one tell me that it is Thai law that I have to buy a life insurance plan from them if I get their health insurance. And....they didn't tell me about it until I found it buried in their quote. I asked about the extra change for a life insurance policy that I did not ask for, the guy (English guy) said it was Thai law and they have to include a life insurance policy to give me health insurance. 

 

I said, that's funny...my last health insurance company didn't insist on any mandatory life insurance policy so I know it's not a law. He stuttered and I can tell he was lying so I got off the phone.

 

Overall, when I needed surgery for some lingering problems from an accident, I went back home where I'm covered 100%. My insurance here is basically to cover any catastrophic stuff (2 million baht inpatient coverage), enough so I can get patched up and cleared to fly back home if I need additional work (major surgery) not covered here. I've done this three times in 2.5 years and it worked out very well financially, I had a chance to visit my family, and they helped me recuperate. But, it's not my preferred way to go about medical treatment.

 

But the coverage here just isn't that good for foreigners. Again, in my experience. If someone has a great story where their health insurance covers pretty much everything (minus the usual suicide/drug overdose/skydiving accident sort of stuff) and isn't crazy expensive, then please share your story here!

 

Anyway

It is not usual to have exclusions written into a policy, if companies are doing that with you it is because you have (or they think you have) a specific pre-existing condition(s).

 

It is not necessary to get a Thai-issued policy to have insurance cover in Thailand. There are many western-issued policies specifically for expats, and a number of these have direct billing arrangements with Thai hospitals. These policies are much better value  for the money than what you can get in Thailand, where the prospective pool of insured persons is very small due to Thai nationals all being covered under the government schemes.

 

The foreign issued policies aren't cheap -- health insurance never is - but as I said, better value for money and also usually offer deductible and copay options that can lower premiums. (Be sure to set aside the maximum amount you might be out of pocket, of course, so that it is readily available if needed).

 

If you do not in fact have any serious pre-exisitng conditions then the local insurers may be misinterpreting information on your application forms, they do this a lot and are in general very ill informed on medical matters.  International insurers are far more medically sophisticated in their ability to determine from a medical history whether or not you are in fact higher than average risk, and more rational in how they treat pre-existing problems. You'll still face exclusions if you, for example, have a previous cancer diagnosis or heart disease, but you won't face some of the absurd misintepretations or draconian knee-jerk responses I have seen happen with local insurers.

 

 

[Global Guy]

13 hours ago, Sheryl said:

It is not usual to have exclusions written into a policy, if companies are doing that with you it is because you have (or they think you have) a specific pre-existing condition(s).

 

It is not necessary to get a Thai-issued policy to have insurance cover in Thailand. There are many western-issued policies specifically for expats, and a number of these have direct billing arrangements with Thai hospitals. These policies are much better value  for the money than what you can get in Thailand, where the prospective pool of insured persons is very small due to Thai nationals all being covered under the government schemes.

 

The foreign issued policies aren't cheap -- health insurance never is - but as I said, better value for money and also usually offer deductible and copay options that can lower premiums. (Be sure to set aside the maximum amount you might be out of pocket, of course, so that it is readily available if needed).

 

If you do not in fact have any serious pre-exisitng conditions then the local insurers may be misinterpreting information on your application forms, they do this a lot and are in general very ill informed on medical matters.  International insurers are far more medically sophisticated in their ability to determine from a medical history whether or not you are in fact higher than average risk, and more rational in how they treat pre-existing problems. You'll still face exclusions if you, for example, have a previous cancer diagnosis or heart disease, but you won't face some of the absurd misintepretations or draconian knee-jerk responses I have seen happen with local insurers.

 

 

I don't like doing the East/West comparison but in this case, I have health insurance from a Western country that covers everything, 100%, regardless of pre-existing anything. No exclusions. Period. And it's free.

 

My insurance in Thailand is pretty much the opposite. It covers only inpatient stays (it's not worth it to get outpatient coverage) and a list of exclusions which covers over 70% of my body, which I'm sure will be used to exclude anything if I get into an accident. But it's better than nothing. And it's pretty expensive for it being something in Thailand. 

 

What companies are non-Thai that cover expats that you recommend? I've spoken with a few and not great coverage or cost.

 

It is what it is. It sucks, but I accept that. If I need something serious, I'll go back to my country to get it done.  If I get in an accident here, my insurance should cover me getting patched up enough to get cleared to travel and go back home to get anything else done. That's what I did before.

 

It's not ideal, but as an expat, I'm flexible. 

 

 

[Sheryl]

Again, if you have a list of exclusions like that it would be because of specific pre-existing conditions. Most policies issued do not list specific exclusions.

 

There are many, many expat policies. Ones that will newly enroll people over the age of 65 and have direct billing arrangements with Thai hospitals include:

Cigna Global

AXA PPP

Globaility Health (Essential Plan)

A+ Asia

ALC

AXA Now Health

Aetna

 

But this list is by no means exhaustive.

 

All of these provide good coverage but you would not describe any as "great cost", there are no good cheap health insurance policies. You can reduce premiums by accepting a deductible and/or copay.

 

Without knowing what your various pre-exisitng conditions are I can't comment on what sort of exclusions you might face, though, as that is a something specific to you.

[Billy The Kid]

Just got a quote for Gold from Cigna Global few minute ago ,  almost spilled my coffee when it came up as €5,900 ...   I don't feel too well now .. 5555

Edited September 27, 2017 by Billy The Kid

[Sheryl]

Was that outpatient included or only inpatient? The former costs about double the latter and is usually unnecessary. What you want is the Silver, in-patient only plan and then take as much of a deductible and/or copay as you can afford.

For most people in their 60's the silver plan with say $750 excess and 20% copay up to maximum $5000 out of pocket will yield a premium about half what you mention. Of course you need to have access toup to $5750 in savings to do that. Lower amounts of copays will be higher premiums but still way less than the amount you mention.

You can play around with different excess and copay options on their website to see what the associated premiums would be.

[pomozki]

BUPA Thailand are incorrigeable liars. I couldn't believes the bare-faced lies they spewed to justify including unwarranted exclusions in my policy. Most shameless company ever dealt with

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[wpcoe]

It will be interesting to see what, if anything, changes with BUPA.  BUPA Thailand was recently acquired by Aetna.  And now a deal is pending for CVS to purchase Aetna.

[realenglish1]

On 8/3/2017 at 11:06 PM, pomozki said:

thanks so much for your reply Sheryl. Quite an eye opener.
I thought I was going mad for a while - surely, a reputable company like Bupa (even the Thai version) couldn't keep getting such basic things wrong. Then  I realised they really didn't know what they were talking about when they suddenly changed their verdict from pre-existing brain tumour to spinal tumour, neither of which I've ever had. The neurologist didn't seem bothered by their errors - he just congratulated me on feeling well and having not had a recurrence of my original episode.
BUT - I'm still furious. For a start I'm nearly 62 and fear future insurance companies may either refuse to take me (as Pacific Cross did) or offer me a terrible policy. In short I want to know if Bupa/insurance companies are at all answerable. I want Bupa held to account for worrying the hell out of me and brazenly accusing me of having terrible pre-existing conditions. In short they're either totally incompetent or trying to find an excuse not to keep me on. One reason I opted for them in the first place was cos if I ever leave Thailand they pass on my track record to Bupa international., Very good incentive.
Didn't you once mention a group that monitors insurance companies here in Thailand? I want them to learn their behaviour has not only eben shocking but unacceptable.

Bupa is blue cross and they are notorious for his crap  I had Bupa about 5 years ago and dropped them They where raising my rates every year by more than 30 % I called them and asked why They said it was because there are large numbers of people in the Middle East they have high blood pressure and diabetes So they said they have to raise rates I told them I do not suffer from thee ailments. They said it did not matter and increased the rates right across the board.

I had Bupa for more than 5 years and never a claim I thought I was the type of customer they liked but they said it did not matter I  Switched to Cigna and they only increase rates very little over the years  2 to 5 % A reasonable figure most can live with

 

I would suggest you Try Cigna and dump Bupa they are very predatory and not a good insurance company unless you are in perfect health