Prenup - prenuptial agreement / marriage contract

[rolandj]

Hi,

I know, this topics was discussed several times here, but I still have a few questions:

1. Does the prenup need to contain all assets (personal property) mentioned, e.g. list of properties, bank accounts etc.?
2. Do I really need an appointment with a lawyer? To what extend the template documents are helpful?
3. The prenup here in Thailand covers the Thai law. Do I need a second contract for my home country?
4. Do you have any experiences with prenups here in Thailand?

I had a prenup in Germany, and my last divorce was "smooth as silk". So I would never marry without it.

Regards

Roland

[samii]

I did one in English (found a template from internet) and then used the lawyer to verify and translate it (cost few thousand baths). I did not have that much assets (10 years ago) that time, but added all and possible future ones as well.


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[Elkski]

Is it relavant to ask how a prenuptial agreement is accepted by a Thai Woman?.   Why get married?  What  official marriage's are planned? Do you have most of your assets in home country or Thailand? Where do you plan to live? 

[rolandj]

@samii: how did you "listed" the assets? Just a simple name/amount-list?

@Elkski:

Q: Is it relevant to ask how a prenuptial agreement is accepted by a Thai Woman?.

A: Not sure what exactly the question is. I cannot answer in general ("by a Thai woman"), but I can confirm in my case that it is accepted.

Why it shouldn't? In Thailand I am not allowed to buy a little piece of land for our house and I am not sure, if I am allowed to stay here for longer (visa regulations are changing), so I also have to protect my property. Fair enough, right?

 

Q: Why get married?  

A: Simple and classical answer: Because I love my wife-to-be.

She also should have some security for her life, e.g. when I die.

 

Q: What  official marriage's are planned?

A: Not sure what exactly the question is. We will have a registered marriage. Do you mean that?

 

Q: Where do you plan to live? 

A: Thailand

 

Regards

Roland

[samii]

[mention=73094]samii[/mention]: how did you "listed" the assets? Just a simple name/amount-list?

Just bit backgrounds. We got married just few months after we met. Sorry to say, but besides love, it was a must/have to do. I got job in UN and there was absolutely no support from their side, if we were not married. I have never worked in Thailand (not a joke), but mainly in Laos and other neighboring countries

And then the question: I just listed all. Simple list. Xxxx euro, in bank name, address

Finally when we got to Ban Rak to do the "ceremony", woman official who did our paper work said when seeing the prenuptial that this is not a real marriage...I did not judge her or anything. Just thought we have different cultural backgrounds, age etc.

[mention=265220]Elkski[/mention]:
Q: Is it relevant to ask how a prenuptial agreement is accepted by a Thai Woman?.
A: Not sure what exactly the question is. I cannot answer in general ("by a Thai woman"), but I can confirm in my case that it is accepted.
Why it shouldn't? In Thailand I am not allowed to buy a little piece of land for our house and I am not sure, if I am allowed to stay here for longer (visa regulations are changing), so I also have to protect my property. Fair enough, right?
 
Q: Why get married?  
A: Simple and classical answer: Because I love my wife-to-be.
She also should have some security for her life, e.g. when I die.
 
Q: What  official marriage's are planned?
A: Not sure what exactly the question is. We will have a registered marriage. Do you mean that?
 
Q: Where do you plan to live? 
A: Thailand
 
Regards
Roland

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[blackcab]

The crucial thing is the prenup must be handed to the officer at the Amphur/Khet on or before the day you marry. The document will be kept at their office and mention of it will be made in the paperwork you sign to register your marriage.

 

This is critical. If this is not done, the prenup is worthless.

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎8‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 9:36 PM, rolandj said:

@samii: how did you "listed" the assets? Just a simple name/amount-list?

@Elkski:

Q: Is it relevant to ask how a prenuptial agreement is accepted by a Thai Woman?.

A: Not sure what exactly the question is. I cannot answer in general ("by a Thai woman"), but I can confirm in my case that it is accepted.

Why it shouldn't? In Thailand I am not allowed to buy a little piece of land for our house and I am not sure, if I am allowed to stay here for longer (visa regulations are changing), so I also have to protect my property. Fair enough, right?

 

Q: Why get married?  

A: Simple and classical answer: Because I love my wife-to-be.

She also should have some security for her life, e.g. when I die.

 

Q: What  official marriage's are planned?

A: Not sure what exactly the question is. We will have a registered marriage. Do you mean that?

 

Q: Where do you plan to live? 

A: Thailand

 

Regards

Roland

Does the prenup need to contain all assets (personal property) mentioned, e.g. list of properties, bank accounts etc.?

???????

Surely only the assets which you would want to keep or divide.

 

I am not sure, if I am allowed to stay here for longer (visa regulations are changing), so I also have to protect my property.

In the event of the rules changing that much, we are all screwed anyway. Besides, if you are unlucky you won't be able to protect anything. Far better to buy anything valuable before getting married, and in your name only, so it is legally yours anyway.

 

You don't have to be married to provide for her after your death. A will sorts that.

You can have a village marriage if the ceremony is important.

Unless you want children, IMO a legal wedding is just mumbo jumbo and means nothing as securing a loving partner and a marriage for life. My ex wife certainly regarded marriage as a means of extracting as much as possible before throwing me out.

[blackcab]

On 07/08/2017 at 1:19 PM, rolandj said:

Does the prenup need to contain all assets (personal property) mentioned, e.g. list of properties, bank accounts etc.?

 

No, however that is the main point of having a prenup in Thailand. Essentially the prenup removes any doubt over who owned what prior to marriage.

 

Understand that no prenup in Thailand can protect assets gained after marriage (with minor exceptions). The law is quite clear: such assets are joint property and will be divided equally in case if divorce.

 

The reason a prenup does not protect such assets is because a contract, even if sign willingly, cannot supersede statute law.

[Preacher]

10 hours ago, blackcab said:

 

No, however that is the main point of having a prenup in Thailand. Essentially the prenup removes any doubt over who owned what prior to marriage.

 

Understand that no prenup in Thailand can protect assets gained after marriage (with minor exceptions). The law is quite clear: such assets are joint property and will be divided equally in case if divorce.

 

The reason a prenup does not protect such assets is because a contract, even if sign willingly, cannot supersede statute law.

I don't believe that is true.

 

If I own a factory I can arrange in a prenup that the factory is not communal property and my spouse would have no claim on it in case of a divorce. Assets gained by the factory during the marriage would not be communal property but my sole property.

[blackcab]

1 hour ago, Preacher said:

I don't believe that is true.

 

If I own a factory I can arrange in a prenup that the factory is not communal property and my spouse would have no claim on it in case of a divorce. Assets gained by the factory during the marriage would not be communal property but my sole property.

 

We agree, even if you think we don't. Essentially your example falls within the management and reuse of personal property, and is one of the limited exceptions I briefly mentioned.

 

Section 1472 of the Civil and Commercial Code states:

 

As regards to Sin Suan Tua, if it has been exchanged to other property, other property has been bought or money has been acquired from selling it, such other property or money acquired shall be Sin Suan Tua.

Where the Sin Suan Tua has been totally or partly destroyed but replaced by other property or money, such other property shall be Sin Suan Tua.
 

The reuse of personal property is normally discussed in the Real Estate forum in the context of the foreign partner having money in the bank before marriage and then using it to buy a condo after marriage.

 

In terms of what is joint property, Section 1474 part 3 of the Civil and Commercial Code states:

 

Sin Somros consists of:

 

[...]

(3) fruits of Sin Suan Tua.

 

In the case of a factory, the fruit would be any salary, drawings or dividends paid by the factory to either spouse.

[oldwelshman]

Anyone know a law firm to do this for me for less than the 15k I have been quoted a a farrang? :-) UK thai lawyer told me about 5k is norm? Unfortunately he does not do them.

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎9‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 3:32 AM, oldwelshman said:

Anyone know a law firm to do this for me for less than the 15k I have been quoted a a farrang? :-) UK thai lawyer told me about 5k is norm? Unfortunately he does not do them.

Draw up a document detailing who gets what, get it translated, certified and take it to the amphur office where signatures can be witnessed and stamped by a couple of officials. Probably cost a few baht.

Back home a will can be drawn up and witnessed for nothing, but it's still legal.

 

 

[blackcab]

On 29/09/2017 at 3:32 AM, oldwelshman said:

Anyone know a law firm to do this for me for less than the 15k I have been quoted a a farrang? :-) UK thai lawyer told me about 5k is norm? Unfortunately he does not do them.

 

Are you getting married soon?

 

A prenup must be registered as part of the wedding contract at the time of marriage.

 

Anything else is specifically disallowed and ignored under Thai law.

[oldwelshman]

On ‎11‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 1:17 PM, blackcab said:

 

Are you getting married soon?

 

A prenup must be registered as part of the wedding contract at the time of marriage.

 

Anything else is specifically disallowed and ignored under Thai law.

Getting married in end of march so hope to sort out prenup then next day do the affadavid translate and get married then ceremony  April 7th. Could marry in uk and do postnup but prefer prenup.

 

[Elkski]

How best to bookmark this thread?

 

[blackcab]

@oldwelshman

 

Understand that the best use of a prenup in Thailand is to list your premarital assets.

 

The law in Thailand is very specific about what happens to property in case of a divorce, and a prenup cannot alter that at all.

 

The best advice I can give is:

 

1. Keep documentation on all money transfers into the country, and receipts for large items purchased (Also scan them and save them securely online). This is because if you can prove you used an asset you owned before marriage to purchase an asset after you got married, that asset is 100 per cent yours. Most people fail here because they can't prove the paper trail (for example paying in cash).

 

2. Do not co-mingle money. Don't have a joint account. There is no need. Obviously you will want to give your wife money, and you can instantly transfer it to her account from your account.

 

As an example: You get married. You have money in a bank account outside the country. Soon after you get married you wire in some cash to buy a vehicle.

 

Keep copies of all documents to show a paper trail. Screenshots of your online banking, copies of all paperwork, copies of your account the money lands, a copy of the bank cheque to the vehicle dealer and copies of the vehicle registration in your name only.

 

I think you will be fine, because you are asking the right questions and thinking before you do something. I see too many people asking questions when it's too late and they have been taken to the cleaners.

[oldwelshman]

7 hours ago, blackcab said:

@oldwelshman

 

Understand that the best use of a prenup in Thailand is to list your premarital assets.

 

The law in Thailand is very specific about what happens to property in case of a divorce, and a prenup cannot alter that at all.

 

The best advice I can give is:

 

1. Keep documentation on all money transfers into the country, and receipts for large items purchased (Also scan them and save them securely online). This is because if you can prove you used an asset you owned before marriage to purchase an asset after you got married, that asset is 100 per cent yours. Most people fail here because they can't prove the paper trail (for example paying in cash).

 

2. Do not co-mingle money. Don't have a joint account. There is no need. Obviously you will want to give your wife money, and you can instantly transfer it to her account from your account.

 

As an example: You get married. You have money in a bank account outside the country. Soon after you get married you wire in some cash to buy a vehicle.

 

Keep copies of all documents to show a paper trail. Screenshots of your online banking, copies of all paperwork, copies of your account the money lands, a copy of the bank cheque to the vehicle dealer and copies of the vehicle registration in your name only.

 

I think you will be fine, because you are asking the right questions and thinking before you do something. I see too many people asking questions when it's too late and they have been taken to the cleaners.

Cheers.

yes I plan to keep everything documented, scanned receipts, bank transfers etc but also keep excel.

I don't plan on divorce but can never be too careful lol

 

[blackcab]

1 hour ago, oldwelshman said:

Cheers.

yes I plan to keep everything documented, scanned receipts, bank transfers etc but also keep excel.

I don't plan on divorce but can never be too careful lol

 

 

I think your approach to your marriage is sensible and practical. I also think that your approach gives you a greater chance of staying married.

 

Best wishes for the day and good luck for the future.

[Elkski]

So if funds are brought in and you keep records and then buy a car in your name, that's not going to be joint asset attained during marriage and split?    What if money sits for a year or two first?  I guess song as you keep separate accounts your ok?  What bank transactions do you take screen shots of? 

Is having two separate accounts and a joint account ok?

[mogandave]

If you don’t think hiring an attorney is a good value, you likely don’t have enough to really worry about.

If you’re not “all in”, what’s the point of getting married?

The wife generally has a lot more to lose than money.


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[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎10‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 11:25 AM, blackcab said:

@oldwelshman

 

Understand that the best use of a prenup in Thailand is to list your premarital assets.

 

The law in Thailand is very specific about what happens to property in case of a divorce, and a prenup cannot alter that at all.

 

The best advice I can give is:

 

 

 

2. Do not co-mingle money. Don't have a joint account. There is no need. Obviously you will want to give your wife money, and you can instantly transfer it to her account from your account.

 

 

Obviously you will want to give your wife money,

 

That is classic and says it all about farangs marrying a Thai woman. It is assumed that we will be paying them for the pleasure of their company, and yes I accepted that too.

Back home, wherever that is, unless it's a rich guy marrying a trophy wife, I doubt many of us would be saying the same if marrying a western woman.

[thaibeachlovers]

4 hours ago, mogandave said:

If you don’t think hiring an attorney is a good value, you likely don’t have enough to really worry about.

If you’re not “all in”, what’s the point of getting married?

The wife generally has a lot more to lose than money.


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Pity you weren't around when I got married. I'd have saved myself a pile of cash.

[blackcab]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Obviously you will want to give your wife money,

 

That is classic and says it all about farangs marrying a Thai woman. It is assumed that we will be paying them for the pleasure of their company, and yes I accepted that too.

Back home, wherever that is, unless it's a rich guy marrying a trophy wife, I doubt many of us would be saying the same if marrying a western woman.

 

No, what it says is how you are continually projecting your previous failed relationship onto other threads on this forum.

 

Get over yourself. I read what you previously wrote in other threads and I sympathised with you. Now you are sounding bitter and twisted and listening to the same old comments from you is getting old.

 

I give my wife money quite often. We run a business together, we have children together and quite often she buys something I want but am too busy to buy myself. It's not one way traffic though - she gives me money too in the normal course if us living our lives.

 

Have a look at the advice  I consistently give people. I'm surprised you think I need to pay someone for the pleasure of their company.

 

Don't judge other people by your standards. We all lead different lives - some of which are very different to yours.

[oldwelshman]

On ‎13‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 5:45 PM, Elkski said:

So if funds are brought in and you keep records and then buy a car in your name, that's not going to be joint asset attained during marriage and split?    What if money sits for a year or two first?  I guess song as you keep separate accounts your ok?  What bank transactions do you take screen shots of? 

Is having two separate accounts and a joint account ok?

No need for a joint bank account. The pre nup is more about UK assets. If I buy a car in LOS from the money I brought in, then technically it would still be mine as I would have documented proof of money brought in and receipt of car. Joint assets are those obtained from joint earnings post wedding. TBH I am not planning on getting divorced and if I buy a car it is for us anyway so not really bothered about that. Banking is online these days and can get statements and keep the PDF's you download so can always store annual records, good for housekeeping anyhow :-)

 

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎10‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 4:44 PM, blackcab said:

 

No, what it says is how you are continually projecting your previous failed relationship onto other threads on this forum.

 

Get over yourself. I read what you previously wrote in other threads and I sympathised with you. Now you are sounding bitter and twisted and listening to the same old comments from you is getting old.

 

I give my wife money quite often. We run a business together, we have children together and quite often she buys something I want but am too busy to buy myself. It's not one way traffic though - she gives me money too in the normal course if us living our lives.

 

Have a look at the advice  I consistently give people. I'm surprised you think I need to pay someone for the pleasure of their company.

 

Don't judge other people by your standards. We all lead different lives - some of which are very different to yours.

If you take offence at what I write you have the option of putting me on ignore. Personal attacks on other posters is not, or should not, be part of a public forum discussion.

I never asked for sympathy, but I am trying to warn others before it is too late for them and they end up in the same boat as I.

[blackcab]

8 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

If you take offence at what I write you have the option of putting me on ignore. Personal attacks on other posters is not, or should not, be part of a public forum discussion.

I never asked for sympathy, but I am trying to warn others before it is too late for them and they end up in the same boat as I.

 

I'm not offended at all. I like reading your posts, so there's no chance of you going on ignore.

[thaibeachlovers]

14 minutes ago, blackcab said:

 

I'm not offended at all. I like reading your posts, so there's no chance of you going on ignore.

Thanks for that.

However, yes, I am bitter at what happened to me. I had a dream for many years of staying in LOS till I died, and the woman I loved with all my heart not only played the long con on me, but she destroyed my dream, and by depriving me of most of my capital condemned me to a hideous existence in a so called "rest home" back in my home country because I can't afford to pay for a decent place to see out my days.

Frankly, the best I can hope for is a massive heart attack that sees me off before I do have to return home, because the thought of being parked in front of day time tv every day in some 3rd rate establishment for destitute elders till I eventually die scares the **** out of me.

Anyway, this is somewhat off topic for this thread, so I'll leave it at that.

 

That doesn't mean that I won't continue to warn the naive and the gullible to be careful of what they wish for.

[blackcab]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

That doesn't mean that I won't continue to warn the naive and the gullible to be careful of what they wish for.

 

I'm all for that - the problem is that so few of them listen. I don't know why, but the majority of people tend to either disbelieve what they are told or worse than that, they get properly upset over the situation.

 

In my opinion, the people that have the highest chance of a successful cross-cultural relationship are those that do some research first and then ask for clarification when they are a little bit unsure.

 

I think any potential partner would be aware that their future foreign husband is quite switched on, and as a result of that they would be less likely to invest years in a relationship if they know they will not be financially rewarded if they are intent on exiting with half or more of the assets as soon as possible.

[mogandave]

I think if one in not ready to go all-in, one is not ready for marriage.

Nothing wrong with playing the field, but you can’t be all in and at the same time be hedging your bet...




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[Elkski]

5 hours ago, mogandave said:

I think if one in not ready to go all-in, one is not ready for marriage.

Nothing wrong with playing the field, but you can’t be all in and at the same time be hedging your bet...




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