Ermmmmmmm Unbelievable

[lardy]

OK I am married officially as in amphur etc and have just bought a condo with my wife, she has just gone down to the land office or whatever its called to change the name from the old owner to her or "us" I really dont mind which but has been told "CANNOT" it seems that I must also sign "some document" waiving all rights to this condo which seems a bit odd as after marriage I thought any purchases were split 50/50 if we divorce.

The thing is this IAM NOW IN THE UK FOR 6 MONTHS and despite mt wife telling them this and despite saying how about me signing over a picec of paper to say its ok they are still saying CANNOT. She is at a loss what to do and so am I?? Anybody know if this is correct??

To explain more it was paid for by bank draft from "our" joint account ( either or both of us can withdraw without the other being there) Yet they are insisting I must PERSONALLY appear at the office with her to change the ownership name.

HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLPPPPPPPPPPP anyone???

I am non resident and we own 3 others no problems.

[thaigene2]

Others may have a different view, but I 'think' this is standard for all married couples (and doesn't matter that you're a foreigner). I seem to recall seeing this during the news reports about the Thakisn and wife land purchase scandal. A legally married spouse must acknowledge the sale/purchase of a landed asset. I guess the reason is to protect the spouse from being cheated or unaware that the 'other' is buying/selling big matrimonal assets? Anyway, I think this is different from a farang signing away rights to the purchase of a Thai spouse when buying land (as opposed to a condo - whre I believe that is not required).

However, I was once given legal advice here that said even if you want the condo registered 50/50 the Land Office may well refuse to do so, as the 'foreigner' is involved - it has to be the foreigner's money - 100% of which was brought into the country - therefore it's 'his' and his only - with the proper Tor Tor 3s or whatever they call them now being presented to prove transfer from abroad and not purchased with Thai baht savings. Assume you know all this though if you have a few others already. I don't think this has any bearing on the 50-50 issue in event of divorce. That only applies to the Thai (protecting her from you claiming 50-50 of land/house which you WOULD have signed away any rights to)

Hope that helps and others can confirm or revise.

Edited May 1, 2008 by thaigene2

[pkrv]

Hi - You are obviuosly new to the forum. I would recomend reading threads such as this to understand the situation:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...mp;#entry776485

Condominiums are the safest bet in Thailand but only if you buy into the forign ownership quota which is 49% of the available space in any condominium.

Use the search facility you will find lots of information on this - But if you have already paid, I'm not sure what can be done.

<edit - Perhaps I should add that I think a Ferang and Thai could possibly own a Ferang quota unit, but probably not a 51% Thai quota unit - i think that is the problem but don't have a Thai partner so you will have to check out yourself - end edit>

Edited May 1, 2008 by pkrv

[lardy]

Hi - You are obviuosly new to the forum. I would recomend reading threads such as this to understand the situation:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...mp;#entry776485

Condominiums are the safest bet in Thailand but only if you buy into the forign ownership quota which is 49% of the available space in any condominium.

Use the search facility you will find lots of information on this - But if you have already paid, I'm not sure what can be done.

<edit - Perhaps I should add that I think a Ferang and Thai could possibly own a Ferang quota unit, but probably not a 51% Thai quota unit - i think that is the problem but don't have a Thai partner so you will have to check out yourself - end edit>

Thanks for replies so far, I am not so new I have 3 already and had no problems with the other two but they were bought 2 by me (in my name money brought in etc etc from new) and one by the wife (bought from someone who had paid the deposit and money not brought in by me and in her name pre marriage) BEFORE we maried, now we are married it seems all different. From what I gather they just want me to sign away any rights to it if we divorce OR prove the money was brought in from outside of Thailand. everything will be ok IF i sign some piece of paper but the problem is I will not and cannot come back for 6 months. I am thinking I sign something to say "I agree" but they say I MUST BE THERE IN PERSON.

Its well below the 51%/49% rule there are 1100 units in total.

Any more help appreciated with this one?

[pkrv]

Hi - You are obviuosly new to the forum. I would recomend reading threads such as this to understand the situation:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...mp;#entry776485

Condominiums are the safest bet in Thailand but only if you buy into the forign ownership quota which is 49% of the available space in any condominium.

Use the search facility you will find lots of information on this - But if you have already paid, I'm not sure what can be done.

<edit - Perhaps I should add that I think a Ferang and Thai could possibly own a Ferang quota unit, but probably not a 51% Thai quota unit - i think that is the problem but don't have a Thai partner so you will have to check out yourself - end edit>

Thanks for replies so far, I am not so new I have 3 already and had no problems with the other two but they were bought 2 by me (in my name money brought in etc etc from new) and one by the wife (bought from someone who had paid the deposit and money not brought in by me and in her name pre marriage) BEFORE we maried, now we are married it seems all different. From what I gather they just want me to sign away any rights to it if we divorce OR prove the money was brought in from outside of Thailand. everything will be ok IF i sign some piece of paper but the problem is I will not and cannot come back for 6 months. I am thinking I sign something to say "I agree" but they say I MUST BE THERE IN PERSON.

Its well below the 51%/49% rule there are 1100 units in total.

Any more help appreciated with this one?

Hmm... you could get lots of repies on this one - You have understood the mechanics and I would recommend to sticking to the 'Tried and Trusted' mechanisms (good grief even our own language supports this). I would withdraw. I assume your wife is protected, in that she will inherit by state law or your will? (I am actually not sure what Thai state law says on this issue).

Edited May 1, 2008 by pkrv

[thaigene2]

Okay then re-read my message as I think it answers this. You are being asked (not to sign away rights as in 'her' buying land) but simply that all spouses (thai or farang) need to do this when registering any purchase of any kind of asset that is registered at the Land Office (house, condo, land only, whatever). Again, it's the issue of anyone being leggaly married - if one spouse alone is trying to buy/sell a place and register the transaction, the Thai authorities want to show they did due dilligence in checking that the other spouse wasn't gettign suckered - I think this is now common. Perhaps others can confirm. You could alwasy check yourself with the legal guys at Sunbelt etc..Maybe you should?

If not let us know - maybe this is something new?

Edited May 1, 2008 by thaigene2

[lardy]

Okay then re-read my message as I think it answers this. You are being asked (not to sign away rights as in 'her' buying land) but simply that all spouses (thai or farang) need to do this when registering any purchase of any kind of asset that is registered at the Land Office (house, condo, land only, whatever).

If not let us know - maybe this is something new?

Hi yes thanks I realise this but the problem is why do I have to appear in person ?? the problem is me being in the UK. Can I not do this another way ie a letter approved by someone saying i agree or disagree with my pasport info and anything else they require?

[thaigene2]

Okay then re-read my message as I think it answers this. You are being asked (not to sign away rights as in 'her' buying land) but simply that all spouses (thai or farang) need to do this when registering any purchase of any kind of asset that is registered at the Land Office (house, condo, land only, whatever).

If not let us know - maybe this is something new?

Hi yes thanks I realise this but the problem is why do I have to appear in person ?? the problem is me being in the UK. Can I not do this another way ie a letter approved by someone saying i agree or disagree with my pasport info and anything else they require?

Check with Sunbelt or one of the other companies that provide legal services in property for foreigners. It's you own due dilligence really. Perhaps there is a way to do this by proxy - they will tell you.

[lardy]

Okay then re-read my message as I think it answers this. You are being asked (not to sign away rights as in 'her' buying land) but simply that all spouses (thai or farang) need to do this when registering any purchase of any kind of asset that is registered at the Land Office (house, condo, land only, whatever).

If not let us know - maybe this is something new?

Hi yes thanks I realise this but the problem is why do I have to appear in person ?? the problem is me being in the UK. Can I not do this another way ie a letter approved by someone saying i agree or disagree with my pasport info and anything else they require?

Check with Sunbelt or one of the other companies that provide legal services in property for foreigners. It's you own due dilligence really. Perhaps there is a way to do this by proxy - they will tell you.

Yes thanks already mailed them as soon as my wife rang me about this this morning.

[donx]

Okay then re-read my message as I think it answers this. You are being asked (not to sign away rights as in 'her' buying land) but simply that all spouses (thai or farang) need to do this when registering any purchase of any kind of asset that is registered at the Land Office (house, condo, land only, whatever).

If not let us know - maybe this is something new?

Hi yes thanks I realise this but the problem is why do I have to appear in person ?? the problem is me being in the UK. Can I not do this another way ie a letter approved by someone saying i agree or disagree with my pasport info and anything else they require?

Check with Sunbelt or one of the other companies that provide legal services in property for foreigners. It's you own due dilligence really. Perhaps there is a way to do this by proxy - they will tell you.

Yes thanks already mailed them as soon as my wife rang me about this this morning.

In a past thread, I remember reading about someone that was able to sign a document using the Thai embassy where he resided and having that document faxed or couriered to the land department where his wife was buying land. Now this document was the one that stated that he waived his rights to the land and that all the money used to purchase the land belonged to his wife. This doesn't sound like the same document you need to sign, so you may not be able to process this through the Thai embassy.

As a side note, these issues regarding the ownership of property is one of the reasons why you will find that many wealthy Thais never offically document their marriages, especially the Thai-Chinese. Many of them keep separate assets so that the family wealth stays in the family.

[quiksilva]

Actually I think the problem is the source of funds. For a foreigner to own a condo they must prove that the funds have come in from overseas. This is one of the conditions of ownership. If not then they will not allow it to be transferred.

Reading between the lines I would say that they are saying that if you can not prove the money is coming in from abroad, it will be transfered under her name.

Hence this form in which you essentially waive your rights to common ownership, in case of divorce. The land department required me to sign a similar document when my wife purchased a house.

I suggest finding some way of getting the funds out of Thailand, and back in again to effect transfer. OR if you are getting a local mortgage, then face up to the fact that it will have to be in her name and you will have to waive your rights to it.

The question then becomes is that something you can live with?

If not, you may want to consider the international home loans that are available from some banks in Singapore like, United Overseas Bank (UOB)

Edited May 2, 2008 by quiksilva

[PennyFarthing123]

Quicksilva, I think you have not read the original post correctly. He states that he doesn't care if the condo is in his wife's name only. He also states that the money has been paid out of their joint account. What he is really asking is how to fulfill the requirements the land office is placing on them while he is still out of the country.

I would think the land department might accept a certified letter stating that the condo will be his wife's and he has no claim to it. But his wife would have to ask someone at the Land Dept. if they would accept that.

[lardy]

Quicksilva, I think you have not read the original post correctly. He states that he doesn't care if the condo is in his wife's name only. He also states that the money has been paid out of their joint account. What he is really asking is how to fulfill the requirements the land office is placing on them while he is still out of the country.

I would think the land department might accept a certified letter stating that the condo will be his wife's and he has no claim to it. But his wife would have to ask someone at the Land Dept. if they would accept that.

Yes thats correct I really dont mind who owns it, but the land office have seen her surname is Farang and all this has kicked off, we did a similiar purchase just before w e married and there was no problem.

If she keeps the condo after any divorce thats ok.

The objective now is to sign this document via proxy from tthe Uk and get the Thai authorities to accept this which is what i need to know. So I am thinking of conatcting the Thai Embassy here in my local town.

Thanks for all answers wife is still fuming and realising how unfair for married couples Thailand can be when one partner is a a "farang".

[PattayaParent]

Okay then re-read my message as I think it answers this. You are being asked (not to sign away rights as in 'her' buying land) but simply that all spouses (thai or farang) need to do this when registering any purchase of any kind of asset that is registered at the Land Office (house, condo, land only, whatever). Again, it's the issue of anyone being leggaly married - if one spouse alone is trying to buy/sell a place and register the transaction, the Thai authorities want to show they did due dilligence in checking that the other spouse wasn't gettign suckered - I think this is now common. Perhaps others can confirm. You could alwasy check yourself with the legal guys at Sunbelt etc..Maybe you should?

If not let us know - maybe this is something new?

I've bought 2 condos and have never even been asked by the Land Office if I'm married.

[lardy]

The problem may be that the foreign quota of the condo is over 49%. In this case, since you are married, they are asking you to sign a statement that you have no right or claim to the property (in case of divorce, death etc.). If the foreign quota is NOT over 49% then your unit can be considered in this portion and registration *SHOULD* not be a problem.

I will have an attorney call today to see if a power of attorney will be accepted. This would be the easiest route.

Sunbelts advice above in case any other get the same problem thanks to all who replied.

I do think my wife already s[poke with niti office about % ownership Thai/ Farang and has paperwork I will check this out too.

[pkrv]

Actually I think the problem is the source of funds. For a foreigner to own a condo they must prove that the funds have come in from overseas. This is one of the conditions of ownership. If not then they will not allow it to be transferred.

Reading between the lines I would say that they are saying that if you can not prove the money is coming in from abroad, it will be transfered under her name.

Hence this form in which you essentially waive your rights to common ownership, in case of divorce. The land department required me to sign a similar document when my wife purchased a house.

I suggest finding some way of getting the funds out of Thailand, and back in again to effect transfer. OR if you are getting a local mortgage, then face up to the fact that it will have to be in her name and you will have to waive your rights to it.

The question then becomes is that something you can live with?

If not, you may want to consider the international home loans that are available from some banks in Singapore like, United Overseas Bank (UOB)

I tend to fully agree with you on this one.

[Maestro]

From everything the OP, lardy, has written it seem to me that the document required by the Land Department is the type of document mentioned by donx, ie a declaration by lardy that he recognizes that the money used for the purchase of the condominium unit was exclusively the property of Mrs lardy, ie not communal property or the property of Mr lardy.

In some provinces the personal appearance for the signature on this document is not necessary. The completed document can be sent to the husband abroad and he then signs it at a Thai consulate and the consulate certifies his signature. He then sends the document back to his wife in Thailand who submits it to the land office. Perhaps the signature of the consul first needs to be certified by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs before it is handed in to the Land Department.

--

Maestro

[lardy]

From everything the OP, lardy, has written it seem to me that the document required by the Land Department is the type of document mentioned by donx, ie a declaration by lardy that he recognizes that the money used for the purchase of the condominium unit was exclusively the property of Mrs lardy, ie not communal property or the property of Mr lardy.

In some provinces the personal appearance for the signature on this document is not necessary. The completed document can be sent to the husband abroad and he then signs it at a Thai consulate and the consulate certifies his signature. He then sends the document back to his wife in Thailand who submits it to the land office. Perhaps the signature of the consul first needs to be certified by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs before it is handed in to the Land Department.

--

Maestro

Lawyer is still investigating but it does appear I will have to sign at a Consulate or Embassy in the UK.

However it still seems ridiculous that it wont belong to us jointly even if she does pay for it with her money. I thought anything w e bought after marriage was jointly owned and split in a divorce. Oh well "ting tong Thailand" as she would say, she's still fuming!! When speaking to her friends I think they are often surprised that this is the case with a foreign husband and see it as quite unfair.

[donx]

From everything the OP, lardy, has written it seem to me that the document required by the Land Department is the type of document mentioned by donx, ie a declaration by lardy that he recognizes that the money used for the purchase of the condominium unit was exclusively the property of Mrs lardy, ie not communal property or the property of Mr lardy.

In some provinces the personal appearance for the signature on this document is not necessary. The completed document can be sent to the husband abroad and he then signs it at a Thai consulate and the consulate certifies his signature. He then sends the document back to his wife in Thailand who submits it to the land office. Perhaps the signature of the consul first needs to be certified by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs before it is handed in to the Land Department.

--

Maestro

Lawyer is still investigating but it does appear I will have to sign at a Consulate or Embassy in the UK.

However it still seems ridiculous that it wont belong to us jointly even if she does pay for it with her money. I thought anything w e bought after marriage was jointly owned and split in a divorce. Oh well "ting tong Thailand" as she would say, she's still fuming!! When speaking to her friends I think they are often surprised that this is the case with a foreign husband and see it as quite unfair.

It may be unfair but as my father used to say to me, "Who ever said that life was fair?" Your joint account in Thailand implies that the money isn't or can't be shown to have come from outside of Thailand. As you know, if the funds don't come from outside of Thailand, you as a foreigner can't use it to purchase property. If you can show this, then I would assume that you could have the condo in both you and your spouse's names.

I am married but my wife never changed her last name. I went to the land office expecting to sign away my right of ownership on land she was buying. I was told that since we didn't register the marriage and her Thai ID card still listed her as single using her maiden name that I didn't need to be involved. I waited at the nearby Tesco Lotus with my kids until the she returned with the chanote in hand.

[Maestro]

...I thought anything w e bought after marriage was jointly owned and split in a divorce...

If you buy something after your wedding with money or assets you owned before you got married, this will be your personal property, not communal property. The same is true if you make the purchase with money you inherited after your marriage; this money will remain your personal property.

This distinction between personal property and communal property can be, and often is, important in the case of inheritance, ie when you die. What difference it makes depends on the inheritance laws of the country in question.

--

Maestro

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Go in to the Thai Embassy in London for advice.

[thaigene2]

...I thought anything w e bought after marriage was jointly owned and split in a divorce...

If you buy something after your wedding with money or assets you owned before you got married, this will be your personal property, not communal property. The same is true if you make the purchase with money you inherited after your marriage; this money will remain your personal property.

This distinction between personal property and communal property can be, and often is, important in the case of inheritance, ie when you die. What difference it makes depends on the inheritance laws of the country in question.

--

Maestro

True in many countries - but it is true in Thailand? And does it matter that one is a foreigner?

For example, I believe the laws on child custody (in Thai Family Court) favours the husband over the wife - opposite to many other countries. But I wonder whether that would apply to a 'farang' husband? Especially one who doesn't hold Permanent Residency status? I doubt it. That's why it such a risk to buy a house in your wife's name if you have kids. She'd literally get the house and the kids - and we'd get the boot out of the country with no longer any 'legal' reason to remain. (Sorry to go off topic)

[otherstuff1957]

Sorry for taking this one even further off topic, but can a Farang married to a Thai woman own a Condo just in his name, without his wife appearing on the title? Bought with overseas money of course.

[thaigene2]

Sorry for taking this one even further off topic, but can a Farang married to a Thai woman own a Condo just in his name, without his wife appearing on the title? Bought with overseas money of course.

Absolutely. As long as there is no local bank involvement (for loans) then no problem. In fact, a local farang lawyer once told me you couldn't even split title of a condo even if you wanted to! The land Office would consider it farang, bought with all the farang money brought here from abroad - as is required.

[lardy]

Actually I think the problem is the source of funds. For a foreigner to own a condo they must prove that the funds have come in from overseas. This is one of the conditions of ownership. If not then they will not allow it to be transferred.

Reading between the lines I would say that they are saying that if you can not prove the money is coming in from abroad, it will be transfered under her name.

Hence this form in which you essentially waive your rights to common ownership, in case of divorce. The land department required me to sign a similar document when my wife purchased a house.

I suggest finding some way of getting the funds out of Thailand, and back in again to effect transfer. OR if you are getting a local mortgage, then face up to the fact that it will have to be in her name and you will have to waive your rights to it.

The question then becomes is that something you can live with?

If not, you may want to consider the international home loans that are available from some banks in Singapore like, United Overseas Bank (UOB)

Blimey!! at the ends of a few days faffing about and my wife speaking at length to the land dept it is precisely this. I brought the money in throught the airport as cash no bankers draft etc it was then put into our joint account and paid out throught this account to pay for this condo and now i have to sign the paperwork at a UK EMBASSY to say its NOT my money. Wife reckons if she had kept her own surname after marrying they would not have said anything. I dont mind it being in her name but seems pretty stupid to me but then Im not Thai so it will never make sense but then its probably not supposed to..........is it??

However they require me to sign this "its all my wifes money document" but what will happen if I refuse as they wont put my wifes name on it she is saying unless I sign? Does it stay in the old owners name???

[quiksilva]

If you don't mind who owns it, then go ahead sign the form and state that its your not money. BUT bear in mind that if you do, you'll waive your rights to the property going forward. If that's a problem, then get the money out of Thailand and wired back in with appropriate documentation [Tor Tor 5, I think], your bank can confirm.

[Khun Jean]

Sorry for taking this one even further off topic, but can a Farang married to a Thai woman own a Condo just in his name, without his wife appearing on the title? Bought with overseas money of course.

Absolutely. As long as there is no local bank involvement (for loans) then no problem. In fact, a local farang lawyer once told me you couldn't even split title of a condo even if you wanted to! The land Office would consider it farang, bought with all the farang money brought here from abroad - as is required.

It is in the foreigners name but without a prenupt the condo is shared property and at the time of divorce it will have to be split (sold or otherwise agreed).

Seems that in Thailand it is better to have a girlfriend then a wife. So if you have plans to get married, buy your condo, car, etc.. before marriage. It will then be 100% yours.

This is also true when you consider buying house, land and get a usufruct or lease. Do it BEFORE marriage.

Edited May 8, 2008 by Khun Jean

[alive555]

fyi you can quite legitimately buy a condo in two names ie 1 thai and 1 farang. 50/50

[lardy]

Im in the Uk the wifes in Bangkok we have just bought another condo but I have to sign a letter of confirmation stating its "not my money".Hilarious in itself and yes I know the rules.

Ridiculously it can only be done at the Thai Embassy in London, mut be great if you live in the Shetlands I live in Birminham so its a 130+ odd mile trip each way and into the London Congestion charging zone to do this.

Bloody ridiculous and they only open for 3 hours as well.

So that will be about £40 in fuel, £10 congestion charge, £10 parking if lucky and £10 to sign the paper.

Jeee they are so helpful at the embassy the semi fluent girl who answered the phone said just bring your passport?????????? realy I said how about the paperwork and my marriage certificate Im sure she hasnt a clue but she will put me through to someone who knows, line goes dead 3 times no one there GREAT Reckon they all need a god kick up the arse!!

Unhelpful to say the least are they all like this then??

[TheDon]

SOunds like a drag, the one in Sydney is pretty good. But everything in Sydney is good. Move to Australia mate.