TroubleandGrumpy

Thanks - that is good information. I am sure that a basic lodgement would only take 15-30 minutes or so, if all documentation is available as it was for you and nothing needed to be attached. But I doubt if anyone was doing a full online return and claiming exemptions and allowances that it would probably not be so simple, but with most Expats there will be issues that have something to do with a DTA and that is not possible to lodge online. But TRD has said that they are revamping the online system - lets see what comes out later this year.

Ok of course - not saying dont sell the house. As long as you know that Thailand might tax incoming remittances from UK that are from the sale of a property (made after 1 Jan 2024), and if they do ever implement a worldwide system then they will definitely look to tax that money for the sale of the house. If he is old and frail (nor or later) moving in and out of Thailand to avoid taxation is not a wise move IMO - moving can be very stressful for the very aged. Queensland is a good option - small Regional town on the coast - Sunshine Coast, Townsville, Cairns? If enough money then go to north Brisbane.

Wow - Germany is definitely not a place to visit for longer than 3 months.

Yes indeed - either way you think to go (lodge or not lodge) if you are a tax resident it is wise to plan and prepare.

We have a Honda CRV and it is great - very popular in Thailand and a great vehicle. It drives like a car and extremely comfortable on our long runs and plenty of room for golf gear and luggage etc. If I was single and did not have to occasionally carry so much stuff, I would probably try the Honda HRV which is a bit smaller and has great handling and comfort too (a guy I know has one).

Good thinking mate - and anyone else with 'investments' needs to think carefully too about whether to live/stay in Thailand. I am hopeful they will back off and give Foreigners exemption, but at the very least I hope that they will not pursue enforcement. But as soon as any Expat is hauled into their local TRD Office and is asked to explain all their remittances into Thailand in the last year (as advised to them by banks etc.), then we all know this aint going to be let go. If they ever do move to a global system, then that is the end of Thailand for me and a lot of retired/married Expats. Like you I am planning ahead for both scenarios - only taxing remittances could be OK - but taxing worldwide is unacceptable. Even the USA only taxes worldwide income for full Residents and Citizens (not Foreigners living/working in the country).

Excellent point and in fact very on point for me. We went into the local bank this week (just moved from another Province) to open two bank accounts with a bank that we both had accounts in the previous Province, and the bank clerk initially said no for me as I needed all new documents and Immigration 'proof'. She listened to what myself and the Wife said and agreed to ask her Boss. She did that and when she came back she said 'OK'. Me thinks like you, and a tax 'officer' is going to be far more 'hardened' and will not lose face by going and asking the Boss.

Bugger - that is a tough situation. Couple of things to consider. Many other countries nearby (if he likes the weather etc here) dont tax his money. If he sells his house in UK and brings that money into Thailand it is taxable - big time. Sorry - but Thailand is NOT the place to come if he is bringing money into Thailand from sale of a house. IMO Thailand is not the place to come if you are retired - if this was happening in 2012 I would have retired somewhere else. Sorry - it is what it is and your family member is definitely not suitable for Thailand. Whilst most of us can handle whatever happens if we are audited etc. I would suggest if any chance of that happening then dont live here.

Winner of the day - well done mate.

I have read probably every web page about the Thai tax change - and you are absolutely correct. Their job is not to say what is going on - not what is actually happening. Even if there are millions of people riding a bike without a helmet every single day and none of them get into any serious trouble (accident aside) some people will demand they are wrong and must wear a helmet. Me - I am happy to pay a small fine on the basis that I can prove I have no income taxes to pay. I am not avoiding them because of the rules, I am avoiding them because I know how things in Thailand actually work. And my many years on this planet has taught me that it is always wise to stay in the back when they are seeking volunteers for some stupid mission that some lunatic thought was a good idea.

Exactly - and if they increased VAT to 8, 9 or even 10% I would have no problems with that. But hitting up long stay Tourists for income taxes without anything in return, when 70-80% of the population pays Zero income taxes, is IMO a joke that only the dheds in Thailand would try to implement. As with most Thais, my Wife has a very large extended Family plus they are close to a lot of people in their home village. She and her Mother and Sisters have asked around, and not one of them has ever lodged a tax return - none.

Good point - and well noted - I will think more about that. If things do go full bore forward and the TRD comes hunting for Expats, then in 1-2 years there will be two clear choices. 1. Live in Thailand less than 180 days going forward, 2. Lodge a tax return and see how it goes. I and the Wife are very much leaning towards option 1. In fact we plan to visit The Philippines and Malaysia (Penang) next year and take a look around. Both those countries do not tax Expats on money they bring into the country from overseas - they both have far more reasonable and sensible people running the country - and no 90 days reports and annual extensions are easy and painless.

Yes to number 2. My assessable income was reduced by the DTA provisions, and then after deductions and allowances my tax paid was zero. I am married so that included doing a joint return and my Thai Wife earns no income.

I hear you - and it is not definite - but as I said, the TRD are moving in that direction. It was announced by TRD that they are planning and looking to implement global taxation, and it has not been withdrawn or questioned by anyone in the Thai Govt. Thailand’s tax landscape is undergoing a significant transformation with proposed amendments aiming to tax worldwide income and expand the tax base to include online platforms. These changes, spearheaded by the Revenue Department under Director-General Kulaya Tantitemit .............. Navigating Thailand's Tax Landscape: Implications of the Proposed Worldwide Income Tax and Online Platform Taxation - MPG (mahanakornpartners.com) I am not saying they are definitely going to do it, and you might be right in that they need to change the Tax Laws, but this is Thailand and things are not always done according to the rules. They are desperate for more money - the TRD were apparently 70Billion Baht short of their 'target' last year - and it looks like anything that is likely to increase taxation grab is on the table. Seems to me the current Govt is thinking very short term and just wants things done now, irrespective of what might happen in 2-3 years. The BOT still recommends not to do the 10K handout, but the PM is hell bent on going ahead with that election bribe - even though they were not 'elected' as such.

Just to finish off for the day and in response to many posts about the issue - Do we retired/married Expats need to file a tax return?? I have received something from another tax agent/company with integrity that puts some more 'light' on the matter and definitely means do not lodge a tax return. He sent me this quote from an online website in February 2023. If you were resident in Thailand for 2022 (i.e., you were physically here for 180 days or more in 2022), and you have assessable income over THB 60,000 or THB 120,000 (depending on the type of income), please ensure that your Personal Income Tax Return (PND 90 or PND 91) is completed and submitted to the Thai Revenue Department (TRD) by 31 March 2023 (or by 10 April 2023 if you are to make the submission via the internet). Taxing Times Thailand February 2023 Issue – PKF Thailand The point he made was that NOTHING has changed - UNLESS you are someone that has been bringing into Thailand money from overseas and claiming a tax exemption under the old rule that said if over 12 months OSeas then no tax payable. He advised that nothing else has changed and that the vast majority of Expats should carry on as they were before 2022 during 2022 and after 2022. He also stated that there are a LOT of unethical tax agents/lawyer who have been using the change to scare Expats into lodging tax returns - and obviously with a DTA involved that would mean they get paid. I had advised him of the 70K-90K quotes I got (because of a DTA filing) and he said that was an absolute rip-off, and he guaranteed that if I ever paid them that much, that they would be coming after me every tax year. And the TRD would be expecting a tax return every year going forward too. His advice on all this was that nothing has changed and that IHO the best thing was to stay under the radar and see how things go moving forward. He said TRD are putting things together for release by the end of the year, but that Expats do not figure much at all in their issues. Whatever is released is likely to include something about Expats, and it could be that they are given the same 'benefits' that are given to Expats in other SEAsian countries, or it could be that they do want our money - but either way we will know. He also advised that all 'experts' are telling TRD that if they do implement a global taxation system, the negative economic impacts on Thailand will be massive and is definitely the wrong thing to do. In fact they are being requested to withdraw that statement by TRD, because it is already causing people to think again about investing in Thailand if their Expat workers are going to be globally taxed. He said that most Expats who do make good money overseas (many like him are based in Singapore or Hong Kong etc) would probably not live full-time in Thailand if they did that (including himself).

Indeed - there is nothing to say that will not occur. And so many other things that it would take me hours to write the list. Just conjecture - but if we assume one TRD Officer/er decides those allowance/exemptions do not apply to Falang, and that DTA irrelevant, who do you think he/she will hit with a tax bill sent to their home? Obviously, anyone that lodged a tax return ! I am NOT saying that will happen, and it is very unlikely to happen, BUT the rules here are not the rules as we grew up with and know - they are 'interpretable' and the Officer (whether Tax, Immigration, Amphur, etc etc) has total autonomy to make whatever decision they want. By the way, TRD Officers have total autonomy to decide how much income taxes anyone has to pay - based on their lifestyle and assets - Yes - look it up. Plus, if the Tax Officer disagrees with you, and they send you a tax bill you have 7 days to pay (extendable to 14 on application) and then and only then, can you lodge an appeal - in Thai with a Thai approved tax lawyer/agent - good luck if that happens. I have been advised in writing that because I do not have to pay any income taxes - my taxable income less allowances (married) - then I do not have to lodge a tax return - "This is based on the filing rules as of today's date."

Unless Somchai thinks you made a mistake and asks for more detailed information. I am not saying dont lodge - but dont assume that will automatically be the end of it. PIT returns are 'assessed' in the local TRD Provincial Office - not Bangkok. Most local TRD Offices are not up to date on DTAs and in speaking English - and IMO will probably never be.

Good advice. I got advice and the advice was that I dont need to lodge a tax return because I dont have to pay any income taxes. I posted that on AN - because several others kept saying we must lodge a return no matter what (because they do). Advice given and posted - and in the end it is up to you what you do.

Well said. And in answer to your question, my anecdotal information is that mobile workers and investors are looking at Thailand a lot more negatively nowadays since this rule change was announced. And they are downright antagonistic towards Thailand ever since they announced that they will be moving to a global taxation system for tax residents, and will be taxing all their incomes earned overseas, whether remitted into Thailand or not. Imagine being a successful person and you are offered a role that means living and working in Thailand for a year or two - but they will be taxing you on the money you make in your home country and anywhere else in the world. Obviously 'No Thank You' - you have anything in Singapore? Likewise, why retire to Thailand and get hit with income taxes (here and at home) when The Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia and Vietnam dont tax either the money you remit or the money you make back home. Same applies to Laos, Cambodia and many other countries worldwide. IMO any American thinking of retiring here is being stupid - the 'retirement deals' on the table from Columbia, Panama, Ecuador and many other Latin American countries is so much better (and much closer to 'home' if things dont work out). I have noticed a lot less Yanks here than when I first came in 2012 - they started to slow down since the Coup, but post-Covid they are not coming much at all. IMO if you are single - get out of Dodge and try another country near here - and visit now and then (under 180 days a year).

Well said mate - in Thailand there is legality and then there is reality - and reality always wins. Anyone living here for a long time knows that fact, and it astounds me anyone would not realise that reality is the real winner.

Yes and No. It is up to you of course, and there is an upside to lodging. BUT there are many downsides too - and IMO for the next 1-2 years all Expats should avoid raising their head above the rampart, unless they have to pay income taxes - just in case.

I am just catching up on posts - I could not have said that better myself 🙂

AND it also means that if you have allowances and exemptions - under TRD Tax Code ORT under your Country DTA - then no need io file a tax return. There is a RULE in the tax code that some people quote as if it is the Bible, that states ALL Foreigners must get a tax clearance certificate before leaving Thailand. That rule is not enforced. Nor is many other 'rules' in the Tax Code. I believe the tax professional - the one with integrity that did not want me to pay them for the unnecessary lodgment of a PIT tax return, based upon their working knowledge of what TRD wants PIT people to do.

https://sherrings.com/personal-tax-deductions-allowances-thailand.html PLUS take into account anything and everything in your home country's DTA with Thailand.

BIG INFORMATION. This is follow up to the above advice for those interested. I just received information from a legal/tax company in Thailand. Whilst the other two who I asked, just sent back estimates of the costs for them to lodge a tax return for me based upon using a DTA, the third company had not responded - until today. They advised that based upon the information that I had provided, I am not required to lodge a PIT tax return, because I would not have to pay any income taxes. They stated that there is no 'rule or regulation' in the Tax Code in that regards, but that TRD had advised in the past that PIT people do not have to lodge a return, if they do not work for a company OR if they do not have to pay any income taxes. The vast majority of Thais do not work for a 'company' where TRD needs to account for the company's taxes paid to TRD on their behalf, against a PIT return from the employee. TRD does not have the resources or time to process, record and file, 10s of millions of tax returns that do not require any payment to be made, and has not had any taxes withheld and paid to them during the year. The example is that Thai Farmers are not required to pay income taxes on the income they make directly from farming - so they do not lodge tax returns. Same for the small 'business' stalls that sell cheap food and products all over Thailand. The TRD PIT system was designed and is resourced for Thais that lodge a PIT tax return and make a tax payment and/or request refunds (when the company has already paid to TRD the taxes withheld). They said that could change this year with this new rule, but that is very unlikely as the negative feedback from Thais would be bad for the new Govt. However, if TRD does make any such change, they said that will let me know. That is great news - and I have no reason to not believe them. It has always been my opinion, that TRD does not want every Thai to lodge a tax return (unlike in the West). Everything I read regarding filing a tax return, indicates to me that the information provided is very much focused towards someone that is paying PIT income tax at the end of the year. The tax company could have done what the others did and just sent me a cost estimate, but they bothered to do some quick calculations and provided great advice. Going forward, as stated before, I will keep detailed records of all the money I remit into Thailand (Pension and Savings), and in January 2025 I will calculate if I owe any income taxes (including the use of the DTA). If I do not have to pay any income taxes, then I will not lodge a tax return. Obviously I will be keeping an eye on the Pension money that I do remit into Thailand, and make sure it is below what would cause me to pay any income taxes. And of course, I will interpret the DTA based upon my reading of what those Words mean to person who pays income taxes in Australia, not for a Thai TRD Officer who wants to hit me with a tax bill.