TroubleandGrumpy

Yes indeed - a move to global taxation by Thailand will be a disaster for all Expats. Under that arrangement it will be very hard if not impossible to avoid paying income taxes in Thailand.

Lets agree to disagree about what technically and legally is a resident and a tax resident and a Resident. Hacing residence - as per a residence certificate - is not a Resident. Staying in Thailand 180+ days a year is only a term used to 'claim' their income for tax purposes. Hopefully, the Thai RD will provide clarification at some point this year.

Fair enough - lets respectfully agree to disagree. One point - the ATO will not and cannot provide financial details of Aust Citizens to another country - without an Aust Court order. The banks can but only with due authority and approval under the rules/regulations.

We can agree to disagree on that. We certainly fit the definition, but the issue is does that mean we have to pay income taxes. A tourist does not have to pay income taxes in any country (I am aware of) no matter how long they net stay in the country over a year.

True - but remember - a tourist can stay in Thailand as long as he/she wants - they are legally not subject to income taxes - unless they earn money while here. Not easy to do that for sure, but with a 90 days on arrival, do that 3 times over any year (first one in Nov/Dec previous year) and you hit the 180 days. The point is that tourists do not pay income taxes - and IMO we are just long-term tourists legally. Sure that may not work out in a Thai Court - but it is an issue not previosuly covered by a Thai Court.

I am no tax expert but I know a couple, and although this 'new rule' does muddy things up, I am absolutely certain an Expat does not have to lodge a tax return unless they have to pay income taxes. What we/you should do though is document all the reasons why you made that decision in writing - every reason and include every amount - from money remitted, exempted under DTA, allowances, deductions, etc etc etc. I have a spreadsheet and I have used that to document that my Pension is not taxable (DTA) and I calculated the small amount of interest I earned in my retirement savings when calculated as a percentage of the fund money I also remitted into Thailand. I then put that as taxable income (when remitted) and it is far less that the allowances and deductions that my Thai Wife and I have - and of course we file a joint return so we both get those allowances and deductions. But the fact is that even if I was single the allowances just for me alone, are well over the small amount of taxable income in Thailand. I also plan to have statements from all my financial accounts/sources, that details everything over the year - from Jan 1 to Dec 31 - and I will keep those on file each year too. And yes, I am also absolutely certain that it is not a matter of documenting everything in a tax return and letting the Tha RD decide if you are correct or not. If you calculate you have no income taxes to pay, they do not want you to lodge a tax return - it is a self assessed system. But as I have said many times - be aware that if you deliberately avoid paying income taxes the Thai RD can tear you a new one. Keep all your records and document everythying and keep it just in case. You never know when/if the Thai RD will send you a request to explain why you have not paid any income taxes for the past X years - they will know exactly how much you remitted into the country. That was a vewry serious concenr of mine early doors - but I now do not beliueve that will happen unless the amount of remittances totals a large amount in one year (maybe 5 or 10 million baht - who knows).

How it works in most countries is that being a tax resident is completely different from being a resident for purposes of social welfare and other Gover benefits, which is again completely different from being a Citizen. As a Citizen of Aust (and most countries) it does not take a lot to still be a tax resident when you are staying in other countries, no matter the length of time. You can be a tax resident of several countries - but the one that has 'precedent' is the one where you have most 'legal and social and financial' involvement - which for most Expats in Thailand who keep their money in their home country and also keep in contact with family/friuends there, means their home country would 'win' if the matter went to a Court - especially in their home country - especially if they are paying taxes (even if zero or very small) in their home country. TH will have a great deal of trouble proving they have a greater involvement in my life - when technically and legally I am just a tourist here and could be made to leave at any time. Sure I am a tax resident after 180 days - but I am still a tax resident in Aust - and good luck Thailand trying to convince Aust ATO (their IRS) and CLink (Social Werlfare) and Politicians to pay over part of their age pension money sent to all ther Expats in Thailand, to the Thai Revenue Department in the form of income taxes. I heard there are about 30K Aussie Expats in Thailand and many of them are on the Pension - that is a big chunck of Australian tacxpayers money going to the Thai Govt. Two chances of that being alloowed - none and buckleys. IMO the same situation applies to most retired/married Expats recieving a Pension from their home country.

When you leave the country you present your Passpoert at Immigration - they know. If you change address you are required to complete a TM30 - and keep it in your Passport. Yes indeed - 12 months 'at the grace of the Thai Immigration Police' - you/we are not a Resident.

Thanks. But technically you are only allowed to stay in 90 days blocks. If you do not 'report' after 90 days (allowances either side), your 'permission to stay' in Thailand is not valid - and if Thai Immigration decided, the whole 12 months period could be revoked and you could be deported - but they are usualy very understanding and prefer that you just pay a fine (which goes into the team pool). The point being you have no legal right to stay 12 months - you must report every 90 days in order to get another 90 days - and then after 12 months you must apply to get another 12 months extension - which is broken down into 4 x 90 days permission to stay. We are all very far from being a Resident in Thailand. In anser to anyone thinking that we are tax residents because Thailand states that anyone staying in Thailand 180 days is a tax resident is irrelevent - especially under a DTA. In Cyprus it is 2 months to be a tax resident - good luck with that I say.

What say you about the 'families' killed by Hamas? You are OK with that?? Keep in mind, the killing of Hamas 'civilians' by IDF is not deliberate it is accidental - it was very deliberate by Hamas.

I hear you and that makes complete sense. But after decades of settlements and appeasements and deals - IMO time us up. If Israel does not force home their current advantage and destroy Hamas and its supporters (literally), IMO that means they do not want to actually and finally resolve the situation. IMO it means they want a constant state of conflict with the terrorists for decades and decades. IMO that is akin to invading Europe in WW2 only to withdraw after liberating France etc. - and allow the Naxis to rebuild and do it all again. The biggest mistake made in WW2 was not continuing further East and also destroying the communists in USSR. Many cyncial pundits claim that the powerful military industrial complex in USA decided behind the scenes that there was a lot more money to be made if 'conflict' continued for decades and decades to come. Perhaps Israel is also seeing the benefit in cotinuing the conflicts - thereby gaining even more ongoing financial and political support from USA. Either Israel destroys Hamas etc. now, or they will destroy a lot of their current 'goodwill'. They will have certainly lost my support and IMO a lot of others too.

All good points mate - I will give my opinion one by one - but nothing is certain and no one knows it all. Lodging Tax Returns - there is no penalty for not lodging a tax return when you have not taxes to pay. I read it somewhere in the Code that the penalties are onbly applicable when a person does not pay income taxes that were due. Technically, they could force everyone to lodge a return, but their current 'method of operation' is not to require a tax return to be completed when income taxes are not liable to be paid. DTAs are very expensive and costly to complete - I have been told that by two tax consultants/lawyers. Both those companies stated that they do those for companies a lot, and that the only persons they have ever lodged a tax return for were extremely wealthy Thais - nil Expats. Companies Incorporated in Thailand. Yes - companies legally based in Thailand have to pay income taxes on all monies earned globally - unless under DTAs the other Country can lay claim to income earned in their own country (USA is particularly strong on this). That same thing and associuated rules do not apply (as such) to non-juristic private persons.

I hear you about the 'moral rights' issue - that is not a legal matter. But you overlook or are not aware of one factor - the part in all DTAs about primary residence. Most Expats do not have 'residence' in Thailand - sure they are 'tax residents' but they do not have 'residence'. I did not quote the DTA, or provide many many others, because the post would have been even longer than it was already - but check this out:- 2. A person is not a resident of a Contracting State for the purposes of this Agreement if the person is liable to tax in that State in respect only of income from a source in that State. 3. Where by reason of the preceding provisions, an individual is a resident of both Contracting States, the status of the person shall be determined in accordance with the following rules, applied in the order in which they are set out: (a) the person shall be deemed to be a resident solely of the Contracting State in which a permanent home is available to the person; (b) if a permanent home is available to the person in both Contracting States, or in neither of them, the person shall be deemed to be a resident solely of the Contracting State in which the person has an habitual abode; (c) if the person has an habitual abode in both Contracting States, or in neither of them, the person shall be deemed to be a resident solely of the Contracting State with which the person's personal and economic relations are the closer. I do not have a 'permanent home' in Thailand - I do have one in Australia. I have a lot more personal (family and friends) relations in Australia than in Thailand. My economic relations are 90% with Australia - that is where all my money and wills and any legal rights I have are held - I pay tax in Australia - and I am a Citizen of Australia. I do not earn any income in Thailand anmd neither does my wife - working in Thailand would be a big factor in my economic relations. I will always be closer to Australia personally and economically. One of the reasons becoming a 'resident' in Thailand (a legal resident) is not appealing to me, is because that would change me from a long term tourist into a resident, and I would therefore become subject to a lot more Thai legal and financial obligations (it is both a give and take matter). The fact that I would have to pay a large amount of money to apply and then wait many years - and I will probably not get approved (age) - also came into my decision of course. My wife on the other hand easily became an Aust Resident (small fee and online application - no interviews etc. - it was basically automatic. I am not and probably never will be a resident of Thailand and under the DTA I will pay no income taxes to Thailand - unless I earn income in Thailand.

As per my last response to another poster - winning means killing all Hamas and their supporters. Making a deal with the devil for hostages by giving up terrorists is not winning. Forcing Hamas to surrender or die and to give up the hostages is winning.

I am extremely sad to hear that - obviously that is why Hamas and its supporters took hostages after their atrocities. IMO any 'trade' of hostages for Hamas terrorists held in Israeli jails is a win for the terrorists and must not happen. If Israel does that trade, and then does not attack and kill all the terrorists in Gaza - they will have lost me forever. I will never support Hamas and like terrorists, but like many others I am sick of this crap about Israel year after year, decade after decade. Israel must either destroy them once and for all, or pharkk off out of my life forever - I will not give a pharrk anymore.

Israel is winning. Hamas and their terrorist supporters are losing. The IDF is killing more and more terrorists everyday - eventually they will kill a lot of them - hopefully all of them. The Hamas PR is failing - except with the woke liberals in UN and the ignorants in the West who believe their lies. War is War - and it was started by Hamas - and it will be finished by Israel.

Everything that is written in the Thai RD Tax Code is written specifically for salary earners and recipients of income in Thailand, who are tax residents. It has been and still is my belief that unless a person has to pay income taxes, then they do not have to lodge a tax return in Thailand. The vast majority of Thai citrizens do not lodge tax returns - a google search indicates that only 6-9 million people lodge a tax return out of a population of over 50 million over the age of 18. Unlike other countries, the Thai RD does not want everyone to lodge a tax return. The application of everytghing in the Thai RD Revenue Code is not automatic, as some people think - otherwise every single person leaving Thailand would be fined 1000 Baht for not getting a tax clearance. When it comes to application of the Code, it is not automatic that it will be against all money received/earned overseas by Expats and remitted into Thailand. DTAs have a big impact on those forms of income, as does the application of the Thai RD Tax Code in each and every single situation (and as directed by the Thai Govt). So does the application of the tax laws in Thailand against Expats (which have not been tested in a Court - yet). No part of this 'new rule' ramifications have been 'tested' in a legal manner (Court), and the Thai RD often loses Court challenges. Depending on how they implement this new rule change, they are going to get a lot of new 'challenges' by Thai citizens for changing a system used for 30 years, with 3 months notice. I am not keen to lodge a tax return in Thailand - ever. I do not believe Thailand has the legal or moral right to force retired or married Expats to do so - unless they are using their Visas to avoid taxes overseas, or are earning money in Thailand. That viewpoint is based upon how Thailand legally treats retired/married Expats. Legally and technically, all Expats staying in Thailand long term are doing so as a tourist - we are not here as an immigrant - the 90 day reporting and annual renewals is due to the Visa being an extended tourist Visa - that is why we have the same 'legal rights' as a tourist. Thailand does not and cannot legally tax tourists, unless they are earning income while they are in Thailand. There are Visas that actually give legal rights (such as the LTR), but the standard Visa that most Expats used when entering Thailand, is an extended tourist Visa - we are all tourists (visitors). But I am not going to take that legal 'argument' further and get it tested in the Thai RD Tribunal or Court - only because that would be extremely expensive. I will also point out that there is SFA arrangements in place at the Thai RD for the lodgement of a tax return in Thailand under which the terms and conditions of a DTA can be utlised. Both the written and online versions of the Thai RD tax lodgement do not cater for that situation. Therefore, should any Expats wish to lodge a tax return and claim that certain money is not taxable under a DTA with their country, it will be an expensive exercise if we use a tax expert - and it could be very expensive if it goes to a Tribunal. Plus I am certain that the Thai RD does not have the time and resources available to manage that anyway, should every Expat who receives over 120K Baht from a Pension lodge a tax return claiming they owe no taxes (or a very small amount) due to their interpretation of a DTA. Who the hell at the Thai RD is going to be able to deal with exemptions claimed under the DTAs that Thailand has with over 60 different countries. Unless I am working/earning income in Thailand (legally available only with a work permit), then I see no legal reason for a retired or married Expat to pay income taxes. My calculations are that they get zero from myself anyway, but it is the principle of the matter. When a Thai Court has ruled that Expats can be legally charged a much higher rate in a State hospital, because they are not Thai citizens and have more money, that clearly states we dont have the same legal rights as a Thai citizen. And there are so many other situations (like dual pricing, courts, etc.) where it is very clear what our/my legal status is in Thailand. Implicit in that is that we dont have to pay income taxes Thailand will find out soon enough that if they start applying income taxes against many Expats (especially their Pensions) then they will not stay living here in Thailand full-time. Obviously some Expats have no choice and cannot easily move out, but many Expats can and will either just visit Thailand (<180 days), or they will take up other options. It is no coincidence that the Taxation Minister in Malaysia, who introduced this same new rule in 2022, has stated that they have no intention of taxing the money of retired/married Expats that they bring into the country. As she said that is wrong because that is all 'new money' being broguht into the country, and it would be a massive disincentive for Expats to bring money into Malaysia if it is going to be taxed. The implementation of this new tax rule is about removing the loophole that allowed citizens and companies to invest their money (earned in their country) overseas and to then bring that money back and not pay taxes on the earnings made on that investment overseas. The associated 'global taxation' system that is now being employed in many countries, is about stopping people living in one country for long periods, just so that they can avoid income taxation in another (and money laundering).

We recently drove around in Isaan - up to Korat to Ubon to Yasothon to Roi Et to Khon Kaen and back again, and then down through Surin and Buri Ram to Korat. There were less fires (smoke plumes) than there were on previous trips - but there were still fires here and there - some were openly burning their lands near the main roads. But unless the Thai Airforce water bombs the huge amount of fires in Cambodia and Laos and Myanmar, it aint going to make much difference when the wind comes from their directions.

So you applied for multi-entry retirement Visa and it was not approved and they gave you single?

The information I have received from my enquiries to both the ATO and local legal firms is something along these lines: the new tax law in Thailand at the moment is as you can see is still quite vague, and we hopefully will have a more clear idea of how this affects visa types and nationalities specifically in the coming months once it has been implemented and trialed by the authorities I have received no officlal reply from the ATO - both from an email and an online 'application' - only references to website information (like below). What is clear under the DTA is that as long as you are a tax resident of Australia, you do not pay any income taxes to Thailand on any money revived in Australia - even if you are also a tax resident of Thailand. There are several rules/regs about what is an Aust tax resident - best way is to take the test blow. I am an Aust tax resident - and wil be for at least 2 years - so Thailand will get none of my age pension for at least 2 years. But after 2 years it becomes 'problemmatic' maintaining tax residency in Aust while not living full-time in Aust - each person has to ascertain their own status - or seek a private ruling from the ATO (I have done that and was told 'several months delay'). Questions | Determination of residency status – leaving Australia (ato.gov.au) Applying for a private ruling | Australian Taxation Office (ato.gov.au) I am very/extremely doubtful that the definition of assessable income used by some people on this forum is correct. My read of the Thai RD tax guide is that assessable income means taxable income. I am certain that the Thai RD does require Expats to report all the money they remitted into Thailand from their own personal saving - or from other non-taxable sources such as inheritences or property sales made overseas (that was bought with their owen money from overseas). However rental payments received from property overseas is taxable income.

To the uneducated an educated person is strage - likewise a wise man to a fool. Not sure who is what - I think maybe one of us is an uneducated fool. But like I said - lets agree to see each otjher that way.

I was once told that 'they dont send their best and brightest there mate'. Now I really understand exactly what he was saying and really meant. Question - How the hell would I know anyone's IP address and location ?? R U Lot Serious??

Idiotic and stupid - you are beyond silly and into the twilight zone with all that khrapp. Now that I have responded to your insults with my own. If you seriously do not know that Thais in general have an attitiude towards Falangs (some good and some not so good) then you are not a person that lives in Thailand - or only in/near bars. Lets just agree to disagree. Have a great night - hope you find a good one. Bye.

Good to hear. IMO someone can criticise Israel - but justifying what Hamas did is way over the line. Anyone who agrees with Hamas doing what they did is not a decent human being - they are the exact opposite.

Absolutely - becaue they are trying to avoid 'civilians' - while Hamas are trying to get them killed - deliberately. If Israel was to employ massive indiscriminate bombings and kill them all - that would be rightly criticised and not OK in world opinion. Personally I feel they should do that - but they are not going to that extreme - yet. If Hamas uses a nuclear device against Israel - they will - immediately - and the west bank too - fully supported by USA. Undoubtedly the next target would be Syria and/or Iran the probable source of the nuclear bomb - and then Iraq and/or Lebanon if they attack Israel. Ditto for Pakistan. And guess what?? WW3 would not start. That is all total BS. The first world countries are sick of the Muslim terrorists and would not leap to their defence against Israel and USA - China, Russia, USA, Europe, India, France, UK, etc etc - have all dealt with them and will not take their side. And Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan will all stand aside. That IMO is the reality of the situation and Israel is willing to go that far - because this latest atrocious attack by Hamas was the final straw. Hamas will either be the destruction of them all (famatical Muslim terrorists) - or it alone will be destroyed by Israel.