TroubleandGrumpy

Thanks. And Yes and No regarding those other countries taxing foreigner's income. You have raised a massive issue regarding international taxation that is at the heart of the issues with Thailand applying income taxation to Foreigners' money earned overseas. Thailand like most other countries uses a 'residence based' taxation, but they only apply taxation to the income that is brought into Thailand - a long existing exemption for income not brought into Thailand in the same year was cancelled this year. International taxation - Wikipedia Most other countries have moved to taxing income from overseas brought into their countries in line with CRS etc., but they also tax income made anywhere in the world - but they provide exemptions to retired Expats living in their countries. They all provide those exemptions and allowances to retired Expats through their tax codes - or through separate determinations. Malaysia in the most common example - they tax overseas earnings, but they exempt income already subjected to taxation overseas - that has been the case for many years. Other countries using a resident based tax system and taxing foreign earnings, have managed and dealt with those issues for years. Thailand is not prepared for all the complications involved in taxing income from overseas - especially for foreigners - and that is why they let it go in the past so to speak. Now they have suddenly and out of the blue, both removed the 12 month tax exemption and also stated that all Foreigners must pay PIT income taxes on their foreign earnings brought into Thailand when it was never enforced before. The fact is that was always technically the case - the rule change meant nothing - but they are desperate to increase the tax base and they have just gone ahead and done it, with no idea what that entails and all the problems involved. The best analogy I have heard is that Thailand has been operating as a cheap small town lawyer, and has just decided to go and do work in the Supreme Court. They have no idea what is involved and their systems and processes are immature and backward, and their staff are completely unprepared and do not know what is going on. Just walk into your local TRD Office and you will see that - as posters have done. IMO it is best to avoid TRD while they find out what is in that can of worms and deal with it over the next 2-3 years I reckon. Meanwhile, the advice I have received to not lodge a tax return in my situation is the advice that I will be following. This is Thailand.

There are links provided in that post of mine - perhaps you missed them. Those quotes are from those websites. I would also point out something else - DTAs are not just Double Tax Agreements to avoid double taxation. The full name of the Thailand-Australia Agreement is " an Agreement for the Avoidance of Double Taxation and the Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with Respect to Taxes on Income," australia : article 1-5 | The Revenue Department (English Site) (rd.go.th) DTAs cover not only provisions to ensure the double application of taxation on incomes, but they also provide for taxation exemptions, reductions and allowances by tax residents and Citizens/Nationals of each country. However, as stated by several members besides myself, TRD Officers are not overall very aware of this fact and most believe DTAs only mean Foreigners can only get tax credits on the income taxes paid already in their home country.

Yes - only the financial organisation in Australia will provide (maybe) a report detailing taxes already paid. If those numpties in TRD think that the Australia Tax Office will issue a tax certificate for a non-resident there living in Thailand - they are numpties. You must be a tax resident of Australia to request a tax certificate from ATO for taxes paid in Australia. Requesting this as a non-resident is not supported and I would say nigh on impossible to get even when using a very expensive tax accountant. Certificate of residency and certification of overseas tax relief - request form for individuals | Australian Taxation Office (ato.gov.au) This illogical thinking by TRD reminds me of those health insurance certificates from non-Thai insurance companies that they demanded be signed by a Director of the overseas Company to Certify that their insurance coverage was in compliance with Thailand Immigration rules regarding retired Expats - a total and utter cluster**** of ignorance from totally ignorant Thai Officials. Putting aside the ignorance - the reality is that Thailand is definitely going to tax the incomes of Foreigners - there will probably be no exceptions or allowances like provided in Malaysia, Indonesia and The Philippines. The release of this 'statement' by TRD clearly states that Thailand will be taxing all foreigner's income from overseas. Besides that being a problem in itself, the far greater problem will be proving to Somchai in the local TRD Office that the money you/I brought into Thailand (as recorded in bank accounts and reported to TRD) was not income and/or it was already taxed and under the relevant DTA cannot be taxed again by Thailand, or can only be taxed at a reduced rate. Just for a start - the arguments over Pensions being taxable income or not, is yet to be settled by us Expats, and I wonder if Somchai in the local TRD Office will view it as income.

Could be a good strategy - many many moons ago an older bloke told me that in a large inefficient/ignorant bureaucracy it is often better to go ahead and then if needed ask for forgiveness, than it is to ask for permission before doing something. I found that to be one of the best pieces of advice I ever received, and in this situation I can see the benefits in taking the approach that 'ignorance is bliss'. Unless of course when one is making big money and deliberately committing tax evasion - but not lodging a return when no taxes payable, and pleading ignorance if ever asked why no return - possibly a very viable strategy. What did that Monty Python skit say "nudge nudge ......"

Name that other 'Tourism Desperate' place where this sort of thing happens every day on social media and where such 'bad advertisement' for potential tourists occurs - the story was in all the 'foreign related' media too. By "this sort of thing" (as noted by others) is bad news/media stories about issues that affect tourists - crime, corruption, accidents, holes in roads, sudden deaths, murders, many arrests, drug issues, elected politicians thrown out, banks supporting illegal Junta in Myanmar, Cannabis uturn and uturn, regular shootings, Thais attacking tourists, men arrested for assaulting police (then released after 4 months), boats sinking, BTS railways falling down, illegal resorts being built/torn down, taxing Expat's money, and on and on it goes .......... These are regular stories on Thai social media - daily - maybe you dont read them in the room - but many potential tourists/expats do.

Man oh man - Thailand just keeps shooting itself in the foot on social media day after day. Now there is doubt about the safety of the street food - unbelievable. Me thinks this is gonna get worse before better - which will take a while.

Ditto mate - all good here too - after 10 years of marriage still going strong 🙂 But some blokes should know this - especially those unlucky to fall for a GF that aint one of the 'good ones'.

Thanks - that is good value. All done on the same day??

Technically - 2000 Baht. 2000 Baht times 30-40 Million people who dont lodge tax returns would solve their economic disaster 🙂

Did this 'check' involve blood tests and written reports from all the specialists? Yes - we live near KK.

Finish it with the wife mate - there aint no upside for you - but lots of downsides. Yes if you get a GF it will be complicated - or if the wife needs something - and so many other reasons - cut it.

Thanks George - was hoping to avoid doing that all the time, but looks like they will never remove that 'problem'.

We flew Thai Airways once from Aust to Thailand - never never ever never again. Qantas and Singapore and Emirates much much much better.

Acknowledge the Thai apologists .........

Monday is also a public holiday for a religious reason - does the same apply then too?

Looked but did not find it on this thread - does anyone know if a DTV means you do not have to report every 90 days. Also - does someone with a DTV have to report when moving to a new Province ? TM30/28 etc. If those things are not required then I think that DTV is a far better option than any long term Visa or annual extension process.

Good question - I would suggest you should probably either lodge or dodge (as in get out of .......). I dont think their 'system' will flag you for immediate checking, but maybe your name would be added to a list to be 'checked later'. After all, they can go back and investigate for many years later - all they need is your name and passport etc. Another reason to be careful boys - if you get into a relationship 'spat' this could be used against you. Not saying that UKresonant is in one, but obviously another Thai wife/GF with 'issues' could 'report' you.

I already posted my previous post about some PM exchanges before reading this one of yours. That was not intended to debate this matter with you any further - many people are asking me for my opinion and being a public forum for open discussions that will be what I do going forward. I have clearly conveyed to everyone the reality and truthfulness of what I was advised, and what I am going to do, unless official advice comes from TRD to the contrary. I will give you this ML, others that accused me of making up that tax advice have all disappeared, and you are the only one who stood up and accepted it - credit to you for that.

Over the last few days I have received a few PMs - and when finishing one reply I realised this should be provided (edited) for others that might also want my opinions - with clear disclaimer about not giving tax advice. So here it is (edited). "The reason (I think) that both quotes were so high is because I summarised my financial situation (anticipating forward 12 months), and that included all my Pension Payments, and my withdrawals from my Retirement Savings Account (including 'earnings'), and from a small Inheritance, and the use of the Thai-Australia DTA to ensure my tax was minimised and no double taxation applied. IMO they are 'reaping the crop' of the taxation fear created by the announcement of the change, the subsequent lack of detailed clarifications, and the interpretation/belief of some Expats, that we should be paying income taxes to live in Thailand. IMO Thailand has no moral right to tax people they treat as parolees and who have no legal rights and no Govt services provided to them (but that issue is for another day). If you are bringing money into Thailand that is in the form of ----------------------, then it would be very expensive doing that - but up to you. The Thai Tax Dept will not be able to verify all those transfers and lodging a tax return based on those transfers would probably cost more to put together (based on receipts?) than my quotes. But their first question will be what was the source of the money you used to pay/get that money? Working? Rental? Investments? Accumulated Savings? Unless it is 'income' as defined in the TRD Tax Code, it is not assessable income in Thailand - plus there are many types of 'income' listed that are not taxed in Thailand. IMO you can and should check that all yourself rather than paying an accountant to do that for you. Section 38_64 | The Revenue Department (English Site) (rd.go.th) That Thailand tax system is not simple and easy, nor consistent or 'fair', like that in the West and which you are probably used to - it can be very difficult depending on which Tax Officer in the Provincial Office assesses your income tax return (same as with Immigration). Then when it comes to the application of the provisions in the 61 DTAs that Thailand has with other countries, that is another level of complexity and source of potential problems. I think that is a big chunk of the costs those companies quoted. The reason I asked those companies to provide me a quote/estimate was to find out how much it would cost, because I did not accept people saying we must lodge a tax return and that it is easy. It was a surprise to me when one of them stated that they had done some analysis and I was not required to lodge a tax return because I would not have to pay any income taxes. My 'income' was well over the assessable amount - but after the allowances and exemptions and provisions of the DTA were taken into account, I did not have any income tax amount to pay. I will not go into details, but some Thai apologists are saying if you have over 'XYZ' in 'assessable income' (as detailed on that TRD website above) you must lodge a tax return. The advice I have anecdotally received from many people, and now in writing form a tax firm, is that if you do not have to pay income taxes (after allowances etc deducted) then you do not have to lodge a tax return. That is the way it has operated in Thailand for a long time - and that is why only about 10 million Thais lodge tax returns - and the fact is that TRD has never pursued all those retired Expats and non-lodging Thais, because they dont want millions of tax returns being processed that have no tax payments associated with them. TRD does not have the resources or expertise to manage an extra 20-30 million tax returns - especially from the 300-400K Expats living in Thailand who do not work in Thailand. Hope that helps you understand how things really are. BUT having said that, the TRD has been saying they want Expats to pay income taxes and the Government is desperate for money as the economy continues to crash. We will not know until later this year whether Thailand will follow Malaysia, Philippines, Indonesia, Vietnam, Cambodia who all specifically exclude Expats money, brought into their country from their home country, from paying income taxes. I mean what sort of idiots would tax Tourists for the money they transfer into Thailand to pay for their holidays and living costs - that would be stupid. That reminds me of that quote by Gomez in that old TV show The Addams Family (only a fool would ................ ). In addition - I should have said that my total assessable income was well over 500K Baht, plus I transferred over money that was from my retirement savings, with the total being over 1.2 million Baht (we play golf a lot and travel)

The answer I got was 'No' and before you ask or state this - none of those other tax companies said I did have to lodge a tax return. I sent them all the same detailed request asking for an estimate/quote of how much they would charge me to lodge a Thai tax return - including the use of the Thai-Aust DTA. That one company wrote back stating that I did not have to lodge a tax return, because I had no taxes to pay, was a surprise. Some companies have integrity - that one clearly has a lot of integrity and if ever needed they are my first call. I note in the past that they also gave me great and honest advice when I asked about becoming a Thai Resident - the others I asked back then all gave me an estimate of their costs and the likely timeframe.

Thanks again Jim - but lets just let it go - he seems to always want to argue he is correct and that unless we get it in writing signed by the TRD that we are wrong. Best not to respond and just ignore any bickering/argumentative posts. I have made my point and proved it and I thank you for 'defending' me, but lets just let it go and move forward - tomorrow is another day and maybe then TRD will provide some definitive advice.

I have noted some differences of opinion regarding the level of 'assessable income' that is mentioned in the TRD Tax Guide as a trigger to being potentially liable to pay income taxes. There are two separate Tax Guides as per below - and there are two 'trigger' amounts. 120K applies to singles who earn money through employment - Guide to Personal Income Tax Return 2023 (ภ.ง.ด.91) 60K applies to singles who earn money 'not from employment' - Guide to Personal Income Tax Return 2023 (ภ.ง.ด.90) Go to this website below and click on 'pdf' to download each separate file. Year 2023 | The Revenue Department (English Site) (rd.go.th)

Thanks mate - much appreciated. The clear MO of the TRD for many years, regarding Expats without employment income, is that they do not want us to lodge a tax return if we have no income taxes to pay. That same MO applies to all those Thais working in professions that means they are not employed by a company. That has been going on for many many years - it is what is called an 'unwritten rule'. Now perhaps that is going to change going forward - and perhaps not. But I have legal advice under the current filing rules, stating that I dont have to lodge a tax return because I have no income taxes to pay. This is despite some other posters stating emphatically for many months that we all MUST get a TIN if they bring into Thailand over 60K Baht and that we all MUST also lodge a tax return. That position is clearly wrong - it is not a MUST - it is an opinion. Only when/if TRD provide details and clarification later this year, will we all know what TRD wants us to do - and in the absence of any new 'directive' that states all non-employed Expats must lodge a tax return, then I will go with the many years of common practice and the legal advice I was given.

Nothing is proven as with regards to any changes that will be made by TRD regarding Expats paying income taxes and lodging tax returns in 2025 and onwards. But what is proven is that it is not a fact that every Expat must lodge a tax return if they exceed the assessable income level (60K for a single person). Some tax experts will say that is the case based on the literal rules (and their desire to make money which is their job), and some tax experts say otherwise based on their experience about what TRD wants to be filed at this time. You and I disagree - and I think that is clear to all - and we each have our own opinion. I have accepted the advice that I do not need to lodge a tax return, and unless TRD states anything contrary to that advice, that is what I will be doing (not lodging a tax return). It is up to others whether they agree with that or not - so lets stop debating this issue and move on.