What to do when an Ex Pat dies in Thailand.

[nong38]

I had a friend a US citizen who recently died and have been helping his G/F deal with the aftermath and I want to share with you things I did not know and things you should all think about.

I think that most Ex pats here are not married to their partner in a legal way and thats where the problems start as the G/F is not next of kin or family, therefore they cannot get the body out of the mortuary to the temple for the traditional Thai funeral and the cost per night for the body in the mortuary at a Government hospital currently is 30bts a night as a point of information. I would like to take you through some of happened and then give you some advice about what to do in preparation for your own departure to make it easier for those left to sort things out.

 

When Steve died I rang the US Embassy and they were very good and professional but, they could not release the body without permission from next of kin/family who were in the USA and the only contact I had was his old Navy chum so I had to wait for him contact some of the family to contact me to exchange the details and its worth remembering at this point that although most wives/ G/Fs here may well speak the home country language ok they likely as not will be any good and reading or writing it! So I became the portal of things to come. It was the next of kin in the USA who had to give permission for the body to be released and then arrange for the body to be taken to the chosen Temple and the traditional funeral to start. Unless you are legally married here ( in which case the wife can deal with things) you will need to get things into place so that things run as smoothly as possible.

I have to admit I had not given this any thought whatsoever and I suspect most of us would be in the same boat, so, based on my experience I am going to adise you what you should think about doing if you have a G/F and you are not legally married, if you are married or are alone you will need to modify to suit as required.

 

First thing is to get on your home country Embassy website and get the address, telephone number, fax number, eamail address and make a note of them. Add your passport details, number, start and end date. Your telephone number, your G/fs telephone and contact details for your family or friends in your home country. Make copies, one should go to the G/F ( she can seek help with the reading) keep one with your important papers and send some to your home country.

The G/F is likely to be the first to know so she contact next of kin/family in the home country and ask them to contact the Embassy here in Thailand and inform them of what has happened, the adress of the hospital etc  and I think the Embassy would accept a fax maybe an email to confirm the details. So I would suggest that as the next of kin/family are unlikely to be in a position to get out here BDQ they might want to appoint the G/F to be the family's agent/advocate to deal with funeral agents. A letter something like this in that case might be appropriate.

 

I have to inform you that Mr soandso, passport number xxxxxxxxxx, a citzen of ............ has died at the ...........hospital ( address) on this date.................

I would like your help to release the body for funeral/cremation at the ..................temple ( address) and appoint ms blah blah as my agent and advocate to deal with funeral arrangements. Ms blah blah contact details are, telephone, e mail, line, address and Thai ID card.

My relationship to Mr soandso is,........................, my address and contact details are as follows..................................................

signed..................

 

Go through all of this with your G/F so she knows what to do and also inform those in the home country as well what they will need to do. Also dont forget when you pay the mortuary fees to collect the Death Certificates ( I think there might be 2, one from the doctor who was there when death occured and another more general one, check it out that you have everything you need to wind up the estate and head for the Temple. Make sure the G/F has contact with an undertaker ( they are conveniently close to the hospital) they can arrange for the transport of the body and the box/coffin.

 

If you die on a visit to the home country it is easier but the family will still need to inform the G/F so she can tell Immigration and supply here with an orignal copy of the Death Certificate assuming there is a will in place as it will be needed for winding up the estate here in Thailand, maybe Life Insurance as well?

 

This is not something any of us wish to talk about much, much less about how to deal with it, but we should, the same as making a will.

[ELVIS123456]

Great advice and something for everyone to think about - we should all do the right thing and make arrangements - we are not citizens here and it is very hard for the GF/wife/family when it happens.

 

There are a lot of Expats who have Thai wife/GF and who pass away without having made any preparations. That you were able and willing to help Nong is great - you did a very good thing.  

 

I remember NancyL talking about what she had done many times in this situation in CM, and how hard it is on the Thai GF/wife. At the very least put something in writing and get it witnessed by someone 'official' (Lawyer, Embassy, Thai Govt/Police, etc.).

 

[jayceenik]

I'm a retired Belgian senior. I live here in LOS permanently with my TGF and plan to die here. 

I thought I had done everything that had to be done with my inheritance to her (lawyer drafted wills) but the OP raised a very worrisome point ie how to get my body released to my TGF for disposal if no NOK of any significance in home country.

I'm going to get her to find out how to deal legally with this. 

I'll get back on this thread when I've got the info needed. 

 

Maybe it'll be on me to draft a Belgian Embassy certified letter of disposal of my body to my TGF at my death.

 

Thanks for the posting nong38  

[i claudius]

I trust there should be no problem for my wife as we were married in The UK lived there for many years and my main bank account there is in both our names here she has my cards and pin numbers as i have hers

Sent from my SM-A720F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[nong38]

50 minutes ago, i claudius said:

I trust there should be no problem for my wife as we were married in The UK lived there for many years and my main bank account there is in both our names here she has my cards and pin numbers as i have hers

Sent from my SM-A720F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

If you are married its going to be a lot easier, she can handle things at the hospital and inform the British Embassy that she wishes them to formally allow the body to released to the next of kin for the funeral,she might go first of course then its down to you but in the meantime get all the info I suggest from the website and think it through together.

For most people this wll turn into their worst nightmare.

Just to give you an idea I wrote close to 300 emails!

[Sheryl]

Thank you for this, I am going to pin the topic.

 

Would like to add:

 

1 - Some Embassies have a system whereby their nationals in Thailand can register their whereabouts and emergency contact info. If your Embassy has this system, avail of it. That way they have ready access to info on whom to contact.

 

2 - If you have any assets in your home country, a certificate from your Embassy will be needed to confirm your death (similiar to a death certificate, though the actual death certificate will be the Thai one. The Thai death certificate has to be submitted to the Embassy and they will issue a document called something like "Notification of Death Abroad" which can then be used  with home country banks etc.

 

3 - This firm specializes in expat funeral/cremation etc. Their prices are reasonable and they can do anything form a no frills cremation/burial to a full funeral or repatriation of remains - whatever is desired. I have dealt with them and there was no sales pitch or pressure to go with anything more elaborate than what the relatives wanted (which in the case I dealt with was no funeral,  basic cremation and the ashes in a wooden urn).  They will also take care of the death certificate, getting the letter form the Embassy, etc.

 

https://www.facebook.com/allisonmonkhousethailand/

 

They offer prepaid funeral plans so it is possible to set everything up and pay for it in advance (does not have to include a funeral, could be just burial or cremation - whatever.)

 

 

[nong38]

2 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Thank you for this, I am going to pin the topic.

 

Would like to add:

 

1 - Some Embassies have a system whereby their nationals in Thailand can register their whereabouts and emergency contact info. If your Embassy has this system, avail of it. That way they have ready access to info on whom to contact.

 

2 - If you have any assets in your home country, a certificate from your Embassy will be needed to confirm your death (similiar to a death certificate, though the actual death certificate will be the Thai one. The Thai death certificate has to be submitted to the Embassy and they will issue a document called something like "Notification of Death Abroad" which can then be used  with home country banks etc.

 

3 - This firm specializes in expat funeral/cremation etc. Their prices are reasonable and they can do anything form a no frills cremation/burial to a full funeral or repatriation of remains - whatever is desired. I have dealt with them and there was no sales pitch or pressure to go with anything more elaborate than what the relatives wanted (which in the case I dealt with was no funeral,  basic cremation and the ashes in a wooden urn).  They will also take care of the death certificate, getting the letter form the Embassy, etc.

 

https://www.facebook.com/allisonmonkhousethailand/

 

They offer prepaid funeral plans so it is possible to set everything up and pay for it in advance (does not have to include a funeral, could be just burial or cremation - whatever.)

 

 

Worth thinking about if they know the ropes, can save you a lot of bother, for me I dont do facebook so would have to look elsewhere. The American Embassy had a list of approved Funeral Homes, your Embassy might do as well, something else to check out and is especially useful as Sheryl says if re patriation or sending possessions back to the homeland, if thats your plan look into it and dont forget the passport needs to be surrendered. You might want to take a copy for sentemental reasons.

[NancyL]

Here is a very good document developed by Chiang Mai Community Church about Funeral Assistance for Foreigners.  While some of the advice is Chiang Mai-specific, much of it isn't: http://www.lannacarenet.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/2016Funeral-AssistanceSEP2016.docx.html

 

One way to ensure that your Thai (unmarried) partner has the ability to claim your body and make final arrangements on your behalf without waiting for your embassy to track down your next-of-kin (who may not exist) is to have a Thai Final Will in place with your wishes clearly spelled out.  

 

If you wish to overlook next-of-kin, then please mention that in the Thai Final Will.  I've been executor for an expat where she deliberately "overlooked" her adult children in the U.S. but because their existence wasn't mentioned in her Final Will, settlement of the estate was delayed until I secured statements from them that they were OK with being "overlooked".  Fortunately, they were very sympathetic since they hadn't seen the woman who gave birth to them but didn't raise them for 40 years (long story),  but if they'd chosen to "play hard ball", her entire modest estate would have been eaten up in legal fees in Thai courts.

[nong38]

I have made out a THai will and a UK will in each I have stated that whats in that country stays in that country, thats is understood by possible claimants, however, I will have to speak to both parties re what happens when I die, I dont see it as a problem for me and have no intention of getting the wills involved but as the previous poster has some experince  of another option then you need to look at that as well and make decisions for yourself. The last thing anyone wants is getting lawyers involeved they will decimate your assets.

[avvocato]

14 hours ago, NancyL said:

Here is a very good document developed by Chiang Mai Community Church about Funeral Assistance for Foreigners.  While some of the advice is Chiang Mai-specific, much of it isn't: http://www.lannacarenet.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/2016Funeral-AssistanceSEP2016.docx.html

Thank you for this.

[Oxx]

On 13/09/2017 at 9:24 PM, Sheryl said:

2 - If you have any assets in your home country, a certificate from your Embassy will be needed to confirm your death (similiar to a death certificate, though the actual death certificate will be the Thai one. The Thai death certificate has to be submitted to the Embassy and they will issue a document called something like "Notification of Death Abroad" which can then be used  with home country banks etc.

 

This doesn't apply to British nationals.  The Embassy does nothing for them.  The death can be (optionally) registered with the Foreign and Commonowealth Office in London.  The fee is GBP 225 including postage and one copy of the death registration certificate.  See https://www.gov.uk/register-a-death/y/overseas/thailand/same_country

[NancyL]

8 minutes ago, Oxx said:

 

This doesn't apply to British nationals.  The Embassy does nothing for them.  The death can be (optionally) registered with the Foreign and Commonowealth Office in London.  The fee is GBP 225 including postage and one copy of the death registration certificate.  See https://www.gov.uk/register-a-death/y/overseas/thailand/same_country

Wow, that's cold.  The certificate of the death of an American abroad is one of the free services of the U.S. Embassy/Consulate and they give you multiple "original" copies to use in closing bank accounts, claiming life insurance, etc.  Usually you have to send a certified copy, i.e. "original" death certificate in order to claim funds due to a survivor or heir.

[tomwct]

When I first arrived in Thailand I settled in Korat! Since I am an American, you seek out fellow countrymen in the area and join organizations they may belong to. Many of these expats were leftover from the Vietnam War & stationed in Thailand.

This was 16 years ago! You are 100% right that these individuals had not planned or didn't care what happened to them when judgement day came. Many had cancelled any contacts with their families in the states. Many were alcoholics. Many had no money other than a small pension (probably military) and are now dead. They lived and drank day to day. Three, I remember never left Thailand after their tour of duty ended in the Air Force in Thailand.They were discharged here. When they died, it was easy to get the body from the hospital. It's different now. I coordinated with the embassy and they contacted family in the states, if they could find one. Before the cremation, the embassy would advise me if they contacted any family members and if they wanted some of the remains. In that case, I put half in a box and hand carried it to the embassy. Afterwards was the problem. A Vietnam Vet's wife in Thailand had access to a pension, but 25-30 %

of the time, the Vet was still married in the states regardless whether he had married legally here. If so, no pension. Or if they were married over 20+ years the stateside wife was eligible for some of the pension. Another 30-35% of the time

no pension or money at all. They lived like Thai's, so when they died the wife or GF had nothing. Very sad! After 4 years, I stopped participating and/or assisting  in these deaths. It was very sad and I came here for retirement.

[nong38]

It occured to me today that the most likely scenario has not been aired as yet so I will now.

After having a good feed and a few beve's one retires to bed happy, in the morning though things are different, when your airways are checked, pulse is not in action and the heart is not moving, your Thai lady might be phoning the police, the ex pat has died in his sleep.

I assume the police would call a doctor who would produce a death certificate and allow the body to be taken directly to the Temple with the help of a Funeral Director come undertaker.

This I am sure would be the preferred end for most of us and would seem to be fairly easy to carry out final rights for any Thai partner, any input or thoughts would be welcome.

[inThailand]

Won't a signed and witnessed Thai Will that spells out your disposal suffice?

[NancyL]

6 minutes ago, inThailand said:

Won't a signed and witnessed Thai Will that spells out your disposal suffice?

Yes.  

 

1 hour ago, nong38 said:

It occured to me today that the most likely scenario has not been aired as yet so I will now.

After having a good feed and a few beve's one retires to bed happy, in the morning though things are different, when your airways are checked, pulse is not in action and the heart is not moving, your Thai lady might be phoning the police, the ex pat has died in his sleep.

I assume the police would call a doctor who would produce a death certificate and allow the body to be taken directly to the Temple with the help of a Funeral Director come undertaker.

This I am sure would be the preferred end for most of us and would seem to be fairly easy to carry out final rights for any Thai partner, any input or thoughts would be welcome.

No, it doesn't work this way.  When someone dies outside of hospital, there is usually the need for an autopsy to determine the cause of death, so your body will be taken to the hospital in your area that performs this service.

 

If your "Thai lady" isn't your lawful wife, then your Embassy/Consulate will be tasked with notifying your Next-of-Kin for instructions about final arrangements.  They may give written permission for your "Thai lady" to handle the arrangements, esp. if it is suggested to them by the Embassy/Consulate or if you have already introduced your "Thai lady" to your NOK, either in person or via email/phone calls.

[nong38]

2 hours ago, NancyL said:

Yes.  

 

No, it doesn't work this way.  When someone dies outside of hospital, there is usually the need for an autopsy to determine the cause of death, so your body will be taken to the hospital in your area that performs this service.

 

If your "Thai lady" isn't your lawful wife, then your Embassy/Consulate will be tasked with notifying your Next-of-Kin for instructions about final arrangements.  They may give written permission for your "Thai lady" to handle the arrangements, esp. if it is suggested to them by the Embassy/Consulate or if you have already introduced your "Thai lady" to your NOK, either in person or via email/phone calls.

Thanks for the clarification.

[pitrevie]

I have a Thai and English will with the instruction that should I die while back in the UK that a death certificate is forwarded to my Thai lawyer. Will that death certificate need to be certified by the British embassy before it can be used here? I met with the example last year where I arrived on a new passport along with my old passport and my retirement extension stamp. When I went to Chaeng Wattena they told me that I needed to get the new passport certified by the British embassy each time it seems you do something now new bank account, new passport, driving licence the British embassy exact a fee for doing almost nothing.

[Jip99]

6 minutes ago, pitrevie said:

I have a Thai and English will with the instruction that should I die while back in the UK that a death certificate is forwarded to my Thai lawyer. Will that death certificate need to be certified by the British embassy before it can be used here? I met with the example last year where I arrived on a new passport along with my old passport and my retirement extension stamp. When I went to Chaeng Wattena they told me that I needed to get the new passport certified by the British embassy each time it seems you do something now new bank account, new passport, driving licence the British embassy exact a fee for doing almost nothing.

 

 

The new passport is not 'certified'. Immigration require a letter  (supplied automatically on overseas renewals) requesting that that the stamps be transferred to the new passport. I guess that you would only need to approach the British embassy in Bangkok if you had renewed a passport in the UK....... begs the question, can you specifically ask for the letter if you renew in the UK.

[steven100]

this is such a sad thread .... 

[nong38]

11 hours ago, steven100 said:

this is such a sad thread .... 

But a neccassary one however.

 

With regard to autopsies, only a small amount of deaths require a an autopsy and certainly my US chum did not have one. He did die in hospital and the doctor who was present at the time signed it off, cause of death.

An Ozzie close to me died is his bed early hours of a Wednesday morning and was cremated the following Saturday, no time for an autopsy. When my mother died in the UK straight from the "home" to the undertakers, the local GP signed it off.

I will have to look into the autopsy position further but I suspect two things, one it might vary around the country and secondly when the police arrive it will be up to them to decide whether it looks suspicious in which they will call for an autopsy or they will get a doctor to sign it off and let the locals deal with it.

This Thai will route baffles me. I was always under the impression that wills were not read until after the funeral as there was not often time to deal with it before arrangements for the funeral are dealt with so am not sure how this works unless a paper is left what to do in the event of my death.

Either way the big problem for most people is going to be getting a body released from hospital and how you achieve that, that is what you have decide, which is the best way for you. This thread will give you some pointers and ideas, peoples own experiences and hopefully promt some thought.

[nong38]

On 15/09/2017 at 2:32 PM, NancyL said:

Here is a very good document developed by Chiang Mai Community Church about Funeral Assistance for Foreigners.  While some of the advice is Chiang Mai-specific, much of it isn't: http://www.lannacarenet.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/2016Funeral-AssistanceSEP2016.docx.html

 

One way to ensure that your Thai (unmarried) partner has the ability to claim your body and make final arrangements on your behalf without waiting for your embassy to track down your next-of-kin (who may not exist) is to have a Thai Final Will in place with your wishes clearly spelled out.  

 

If you wish to overlook next-of-kin, then please mention that in the Thai Final Will.  I've been executor for an expat where she deliberately "overlooked" her adult children in the U.S. but because their existence wasn't mentioned in her Final Will, settlement of the estate was delayed until I secured statements from them that they were OK with being "overlooked".  Fortunately, they were very sympathetic since they hadn't seen the woman who gave birth to them but didn't raise them for 40 years (long story),  but if they'd chosen to "play hard ball", her entire modest estate would have been eaten up in legal fees in Thai courts.

Thanks for posting this FUNERAL ASSISTANCE notice, it seems to cover most things and I would advise everyone to have a quick look and later devote more time to really have a look in depth at it, make notes of value even if it is done over several sessions so you will have a run through of what happens in different circumstances and what is required by law.

[steven100]

so am I correct in saying,  have a final will written & witnessed / notarized in both english and Thai ...   and especially add that you want your partner ( not married ) to handle everything as executor ..  ?   and your next of kin to have no legal binding to the will what so ever ... ??     

 

would that be sufficient   ?

[NancyL]

6 minutes ago, steven100 said:

so am I correct in saying,  have a final will written & witnessed / notarized in both english and Thai ...   and especially add that you want your partner ( not married ) to handle everything as executor ..  ?   and your next of kin to have no legal binding to the will what so ever ... ??     

 

would that be sufficient   ?

You should consult a lawyer about this, but it's my understanding that this should cover it.  The key think is to have a proper Final Will.

[NancyL]

10 hours ago, nong38 said:

But a neccassary one however.

 

With regard to autopsies, only a small amount of deaths require a an autopsy and certainly my US chum did not have one. He did die in hospital and the doctor who was present at the time signed it off, cause of death.

An Ozzie close to me died is his bed early hours of a Wednesday morning and was cremated the following Saturday, no time for an autopsy. When my mother died in the UK straight from the "home" to the undertakers, the local GP signed it off.

I will have to look into the autopsy position further but I suspect two things, one it might vary around the country and secondly when the police arrive it will be up to them to decide whether it looks suspicious in which they will call for an autopsy or they will get a doctor to sign it off and let the locals deal with it.

This Thai will route baffles me. I was always under the impression that wills were not read until after the funeral as there was not often time to deal with it before arrangements for the funeral are dealt with so am not sure how this works unless a paper is left what to do in the event of my death.

Either way the big problem for most people is going to be getting a body released from hospital and how you achieve that, that is what you have decide, which is the best way for you. This thread will give you some pointers and ideas, peoples own experiences and hopefully promt some thought.

According to the "Funeral Assistance" document, there is usually no need for an autopsy when someone dies in hospital, under the care of an attending physician.  Perhaps if someone is brought in close to death and there hasn't been time for a proper diagnosis, an autopsy is done, but otherwise no.

 

When someone dies at home, after a lingering illness and is under the care of a physician treating that illness, an autopsy often isn't done.  But, still, bodies usually aren't brought straight from home to the temple.  They're taken first to hospital where a physician can determine the cause of death for the death certificate.  There certainly is time for an autopsy when someone dies on a Wednesday and is cremated on a Saturday.  It may not have been a full "CSI-style" autopsy, but an exam that satisfied the doctor as to the cause of death.  The standard practices in other countries have no bearing on what happens here.

 

I don't know why so many expats find the need for an autopsy so troubling.  

[nong38]

I was speaking to my partner today about the position of death at home and asking her, "you will phone the police?"

 

I dont live in a big city but on the edge of a smaller one, I expect the answer might be of interest to a few.

She said she would phone the "headman" for the locality, he will arrange for the police and doctor to attend the house.

"then what happens?" assuming its a natural death the body can either stay at the house until the funeral or be taken to the temple for the cremation ( just need to dress before rogormortiss sets in and order the coffin.). She opts for the temple as you never know whats missing until you cannot find it if you get my drift.

 

This does not surprise me that situations vary across the country and depending on whether you are in the city or the country. I would check it out locally and see what happens in your area to be on the safe side.

[evadgib]

Links of interest to Brits:

 

Birth, death and marriage abroad

 

Personal applicants can now apply for probate online

[Joinaman]

Not sure if my English friend who has lived here for a good few years is talking rubbish, but
he says that often when the police arrive at the house, one of the first things they demand is the passport and bank books, and sometimes any cash and gold assets.

Is this possible, or is he going senile ? 

[dotpoom]

Excellent stuff. I will copy and past in order to be sure to have it at hand.

   It appears you have covered every detail.

      Thanking you kindly for taking the time and going to the trouble of informing of your experience in dealing with this. Invaluable information.

   God Bless.......DP.

[toolpush]

On 9/13/2017 at 9:24 PM, Sheryl said:

Thank you for this, I am going to pin the topic.

 

Would like to add:

 

1 - Some Embassies have a system whereby their nationals in Thailand can register their whereabouts and emergency contact info. If your Embassy has this system, avail of it. That way they have ready access to info on whom to contact.

 

2 - If you have any assets in your home country, a certificate from your Embassy will be needed to confirm your death (similiar to a death certificate, though the actual death certificate will be the Thai one. The Thai death certificate has to be submitted to the Embassy and they will issue a document called something like "Notification of Death Abroad" which can then be used  with home country banks etc.

 

3 - This firm specializes in expat funeral/cremation etc. Their prices are reasonable and they can do anything form a no frills cremation/burial to a full funeral or repatriation of remains - whatever is desired. I have dealt with them and there was no sales pitch or pressure to go with anything more elaborate than what the relatives wanted (which in the case I dealt with was no funeral,  basic cremation and the ashes in a wooden urn).  They will also take care of the death certificate, getting the letter form the Embassy, etc.

 

https://www.facebook.com/allisonmonkhousethailand/

 

They offer prepaid funeral plans so it is possible to set everything up and pay for it in advance (does not have to include a funeral, could be just burial or cremation - whatever.)

 

 

I will vouch for AllisonMonkhouse as well. I have used their services twice for friends who have passed away. Very professional and helpful. No pressure whatsoever.