Trump clashes with sports world over player protests, invitation

[amvet]

1 minute ago, Thakkar said:

 

I guess not as well. Because the next guy to get elected was someone who launched his political career by questing the first black president’s right to be an American and launched his campaign by demonizing Mexicans.

 

It’s quite possible that Obama’s election led directly to the White Backlash that gave us Trump. With a little help from the Russians (allegedly) and a lotta help from Comey (quite likely), not to mention less than competent campaigning by HRC and the DNC.

 

Whether or not there has been sufficient awareness of the problem of police treatment of blacks, it is clear the problem hasn’t even been fully recognized, let alone properly addressed.

 

It’s not about eliminating racism—that may never happen. It’s about addressing institutional racism. Any dispassionate look at the data will show that it exists in spades. Any decent person would agree that it’s a problem that needs to be corrected.

 

Americans don’t need a Gandhi or MLK; America needs a majority of whites—those who voted for Trump—to realize that for Whites to win, Blacks don’t have to lose and vice versa. America needs a collective white male leadership—because, frankly, they’re the ones with the power—to stop with the divide and conquer political tactics. But above all, African Americans need to be more strident and insistent in peacefully demanding their rights as Americans. As Steven Biko said, “The most potent weapon of the oppressor is the mind of the oppressed.”

 

That is where Colin Kaepernick’s simple, dignified protest, however uncomfortable it makes some people feel, come in.

 

Trump may be a bombastic buffoon, but I think he instinctively understands what’s happening and knows how to use it to sow division and prevent unity. Because unity and harmony are his bane.

 

For those defending Trump on this issue—and I think you are not, but you *are* enabling him by buying into this “disrespectful” meme—think about which side of history you want to be on.

 

“When I despair, I remember that all through history, the way of truth and love has always won. There have been murderers and tyrants, and for a time they can seem invincible. But in the end they always fall. Think of it, always.” - Mohandas Gandhi

Kaepernick started it.  Now the ball is rolling and it will become more disrespectful as the weeks move along.  First a knee then sitting then clenched fist.  How many cops were shot last year?  How many people were shot?  It is more than a simple race problem.  Many people posting here are having a difficult time admitting that the footballers have protested by being disrespectful and keep repeating they only knelt which is a lie.  If you can't even admit the nature of the protest how can we discuss it?  There is nothing illegal about being disrespectful but that is what the protest is about.  Unless you can admit that no discussion is possible because we are not talking about reality. 

[amvet]

14 minutes ago, Slip said:

The issue is not whether or not they are kneeling, it is about whether or not it is disrespectful.  The thing is you don't get to decide what is or isn't respectful.  You can have an opinion but you can't force that on your compatriots.  If enough people object to the practice then that will impact on the money men and players in the league, but many many people agree with the stand the players (and clubs) are taking.

If another nationality  knelt or raised a fist or sat during the national Anthem would it be considered disrespectful?  Why did the footballers playing in the UK sit for the American Anthem and stand for the UK Anthem?  Hmmmm?

 

Of course it is disrespectful.  Not illegal.  Not immoral.  It would not be a protest if it was respectful.  How could you have a protest without being disrespectful?  It is an either or situation.  Respect and no protest or disrespect and protest. 

 

Below both Smith and Carlos were removed from the games for disrespect.

Edited October 2, 2017 by amvet

[Slip]

29 minutes ago, amvet said:

If another nationality  knelt or raised a fist or sat during the national Anthem would it be considered disrespectful?  Why did the footballers playing in the UK sit for the American Anthem and stand for the UK Anthem?  Hmmmm?

 

Of course it is disrespectful.  Not illegal.  Not immoral.  It would not be a protest if it was respectful.  How could you have a protest without being disrespectful?  It is an either or situation.  Respect and no protest or disrespect and protest. 

 

Below both Smith and Carlos were removed from the games for disrespect.

Disrespect is not an absolute.  I'm not going to post the quote yet again, but it is just above.  The notion of respect was carefully considered by the original protesters, and they chose their particular manner of protest because in their minds it was respectful.  You don't get to choose, and happily neither does Donald Trump (yet). 

[amvet]

24 minutes ago, Slip said:

Disrespect is not an absolute.  I'm not going to post the quote yet again, but it is just above.  The notion of respect was carefully considered by the original protesters, and they chose their particular manner of protest because in their minds it was respectful.  You don't get to choose, and happily neither does Donald Trump (yet). 

The culture of America has chosen.  Watch any football game.  Everyone stands up during the American Anthem.  If it is a hockey the Americans and Canadians stand up during both Anthems.  If it is the Olympics everyone stands up during any Anthem.  

 

No one kneels down.  No one raised a fist or sits down.  The culture of the world has chosen for you and I. 

 

As far as respect and National Anthems goes it is absolute.  If you sit or raise a fist or kneel during the playing of the National Anthem you are being disrespectful. 

Edited October 2, 2017 by amvet

[Slip]

7 minutes ago, amvet said:

The culture of America has chosen.  Watch any football game.  Everyone stands up during the American Anthem.  If it is a hockey the Americans and Canadians stand up during both Anthems.  If it is the Olympics everyone stands up during any Anthem.  

 

No one kneels down.  No one raised a fist or sits down.  The culture of the world has chosen for you and I. 

 

As far as respect and National Anthems goes it is absolute.  If you sit or raise a fist or kneel during the playing of the National Anthem you are being disrespectful. 

You are entitled to your opinion, as muddle headed as it may seem to me.  I think from my own observations that the culture of the U.S. is being defined (not chosen) a little more as we watch.  You are resistant to a portion of your own culture which you don't like-  understandable for an old white dude, but that doesn't mean that everyone else agrees with your particular narrow viewpoint.  (narrow not as  a criticism, but because it is just part of the complex whole that makes up your culture). 

 

Respect can never be an absolute, that is a matter of fact.

Edited October 2, 2017 by Slip

[amvet]

11 minutes ago, Slip said:

You are entitled to your opinion, as muddle headed as it may seem to me.  I think from my own observations that the culture of the U.S. is being defined (not chosen) a little more as we watch.  You are resistant to a portion of your own culture which you don't like-  understandable for an old white dude, but that doesn't mean that everyone else agrees with your particular narrow viewpoint.  (narrow not as  a criticism, but because it is just part of the complex whole that makes up your culture). 

 

Respect can never be an absolute, that is a matter of fact.

Sure I'm right.  Name me one country that does not stand for the National Anthem.  Name me one country that does not ostracize citizens for not standing when the Anthem is played and flag displayed.  Tell me what percent of persons in the USA that don't stand and act respectful during the playing of the National Anthem?  

 

Women wear clothes.  Kids like ice cream.  People stand when their National Anthem is played.  It is absolute.  I'm right you are wrong. 

[Slip]

I wish you the luck of Canute.  No, I wish you more luck, as it is as irrelevant to the outcome as Canute was. The result will be the same.  The result is already the same.  Already in your own country many people agree with them, and not only aren't ostracizing them, but are defending and supporting them.

 

Having followed your commenting here since the beginning of this and the 'impeachment/ resignation' thread, I'm a bit surprised at "You're wrong, and I'm right."  It does you a disservice imo.

 

1 minute ago, amvet said:

Sure I'm right.  Name me one country that does not stand for the National Anthem.  Name me one country that does not ostracize citizens for not standing when the Anthem is played and flag displayed.  Tell me what percent of persons in the USA that don't stand and act respectful during the playing of the National Anthem?  

 

Women wear clothes.  Kids like ice cream.  People stand when their National Anthem is played.  It is absolute.  I'm right you are wrong. 

 

[Andaman Al]

8 hours ago, amvet said:

Trump was not disrespecting the playing of the National Anthem.  Disrespect would be kneeling or sitting or raising a fist in protest and he did none of those things during the playing of the National Anthem.  Be adult eh if you want me to respond further. 

 

But but you said:

 

On 10/1/2017 at 6:05 PM, amvet said:

 

On 10/1/2017 at 6:01 PM, stevenl said:

Military rules are not applicable.

I guess English is not your first language.  I wrote, " (C) all other persons (not military) present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, and men not in uniform, if applicable, should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and

 

 

So it is disrespectful not to follow the guidelines? It says you must stand with your head on your heart, therefore to not do so is disrespectful - correct? I refer you back to the photos of Trump I placed. Why are you defending the SOB (Presidentially approved term).

 

 

 

On 10/1/2017 at 6:27 PM, amvet said:

Tell me with a straight face this is not disrespect. 

 

 

"IT IS NOT DISRESPECT"

 

There you go, happy now?

[amvet]

3 minutes ago, Slip said:

I wish you the luck of Canute.  No, I wish you more luck, as it is as irrelevant to the outcome as Canute was. The result will be the same.  The result is already the same.  Already in your own country many people agree with them, and not only aren't ostracizing them, but are defending and supporting them.

 

Having followed your commenting here since the beginning of this and the 'impeachment/ resignation' thread, I'm a bit surprised at "You're wrong, and I'm right."  It does you a disservice imo.

I'm only talking about this protest.  How many people in America agree with them that make a difference?  I don't know.  If Trump keeps his mouth shut the players who have showed disrespect will lose.  If Trump keeps talking the resistance will form because he is a magnet for dissent.  Reagan fired all the air controllers.  Roosevelt threatened to use the US Army to mine and stopped a coal strike.  It's not like Presidents have not taken strong action before. 

 

How many football fans idolize Mike Ditka?  You don't know much about American icons but you might want to check Mike out. 

[attrayant]

49 minutes ago, amvet said:

If you sit or raise a fist or kneel during the playing of the National Anthem you are being disrespectful. 

 

To whom or to what?

[amvet]

10 minutes ago, Andaman Al said:

But but you said:

 

So it is disrespectful not to follow the guidelines? It says you must stand with your head on your heart, therefore to not do so is disrespectful - correct? I refer you back to the photos of Trump I placed. Why are you defending the SOB (Presidentially approved term).

 

IT IS NOT DISRESPECT"

 

There you go, happy now?

You quoted military guidelines for civilians and I corrected you.  Standing during the National Anthem is acceptable as there are many reasons why you may not be able to put your hand over your heart. 

 

The respect/disrespect is standing vs sitting, fist raising and/or kneeling.  It is not hand over heart or not over heart.  As can be seen by the below photo with Obama.

[Opl]

 

 

The National Museum of African American History and Culture

I, Too, Sing America

 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/09/15/arts/design/national-museum-of-african-american-history-and-culture.html?_r=0

"From Carlos and Smith to Kaepernick, amidst countless other cultural examples, the dynamic of this museum, relative to the ongoing struggles in American over African-American civil rights, is already poignant to observe."

http://www.readingthepictures.org/2016/09/african-american-museum/

 

 

Edited October 2, 2017 by Opl

[Slip]

16 minutes ago, amvet said:

I'm only talking about this protest.  How many people in America agree with them that make a difference?  I don't know.  If Trump keeps his mouth shut the players who have showed disrespect will lose.  If Trump keeps talking the resistance will form because he is a magnet for dissent.  Reagan fired all the air controllers.  Roosevelt threatened to use the US Army to mine and stopped a coal strike.  It's not like Presidents have not taken strong action before. 

 

How many football fans idolize Mike Ditka?  You don't know much about American icons but you might want to check Mike out. 

But wouldn't it be better for those who disagree with this protest to actually listen to the guys who started it?  When they say they thought about it carefully and chose their method in order to protest in a respectful way, why do people pay that no heed?

 

I kind of agree with your comments about Trump, his mouth, and being a magnet for dissent.  But that does make me wonder why he is trying to stir up shit in the country he is meant to governing for the good of all. (as off topic as that is.)

 

I don't know Mike Ditka (not the foreign guy out Taxi right?), but on your recommendation, I'm off to look him up.

EDIT: I have to say he isn't looking that favourable as a role model.

 

Edited October 2, 2017 by Slip

[stevenl]

5 minutes ago, amvet said:

You quoted military guidelines for civilians and I corrected you.  Standing during the National Anthem is acceptable as there are many reasons why you may not be able to put your hand over your heart. 

 

The respect/disrespect is standing vs sitting, fist raising and/or kneeling.  It is not hand over heart or not over heart.  As can be seen by the below photo with Obama.

I asked the same question, and your answer comes down to 'because I say so'. I think that is showing disrespect to many.

Edited October 2, 2017 by stevenl

[amvet]

1 minute ago, attrayant said:

 

To whom or to what?

To the country for which the flag and Anthem stands.  The flag or anthem in and of itself is not worthy of respect as it's a song and a piece of cloth.  The symbolism and meaning attached to it has value.  It is like the current V symbol for kids in Thailand has nothing to do with the V that Churchill used during WWII. 

 

In days of yore flags were far more important because they meant possession of a ship or fort or whatever not they are confined to symbols. 

[amvet]

4 minutes ago, Opl said:

 

 

The National Museum of African American History and Culture

I, Too, Sing America

 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/09/15/arts/design/national-museum-of-african-american-history-and-culture.html?_r=0

"From Carlos and Smith to Kaepernick, amidst countless other cultural examples, the dynamic of this museum, relative to the ongoing struggles in American over African-American civil rights, is already poignant to observe."

http://www.readingthepictures.org/2016/09/african-american-museum/

OK.  If the international community agreed with their effort would they have kicked them out of the Olympics?

[Andaman Al]

3 minutes ago, amvet said:

You quoted military guidelines for civilians and I corrected you.  Standing during the National Anthem is acceptable as there are many reasons why you may not be able to put your hand over your heart. 

 

The respect/disrespect is standing vs sitting, fist raising and/or kneeling.  It is not hand over heart or not over heart. 

 

You are making it up as you go along. You posted photos of people standing all with their hands on their heart saying 'this is respect'. You are a troll. You have hijacked the thread and change your tune whenever you wish and by doing so YOU disrespect this community. It is POINTLESS anyone engaging you further.

[amvet]

5 minutes ago, Slip said:

But wouldn't it be better for those who disagree with this protest to actually listen to the guys who started it?  When they say they thought about it carefully and chose their method in order to protest in a respectful way, why do people pay that no heed?

 

I kind of agree with your comments about Trump, his mouth, and being a magnet for dissent.  But that does make me wonder why he is trying to stir up shit in the country he is meant to governing for the good of all. (as off topic as that is.)

 

I don't know Mike Ditka (not the foreign guy out Taxi right?), but on your recommendation, I'm off to look him up.

Trump and Mike Ditka and many others reacted to what Kaepernic started. Point of fact.  As far as the chicken and the egg it was Kaepernic first then Trump got elected and reacted much later. 

[Opl]

4 minutes ago, amvet said:

OK.  If the international community agreed with their effort would they have kicked them out of the Olympics?

 

MEXICO 1968 !

We are living in the 21th century!

Almost half a century ago!

Now you know what MAGA means ???  don't you?  

 

Edited October 2, 2017 by Opl

[amvet]

1 minute ago, Opl said:

 

MEXICO 1968 !

We are living in the 21th century!

 

Even back to the Berlin Olympics in 1936 I think you will find that sportsmen would rather keep sport clear of politics. 

[Andaman Al]

3 minutes ago, amvet said:

Trump and Mike Ditka and many others reacted to what Kaepernic started. Point of fact.  As far as the chicken and the egg it was Kaepernic first then Trump got elected and reacted much later. 

So why does Trump react a year later? Don't you find that pathetic?  He reacts because he is down in Alabama and wanted to whip up a racist argument and people like YOU enable him, you aid and abet him. By Trump doing this he was the one disrespecting the Republic, the flag the anthem and the constitution. HE was the one that yet again failed to uphold his oath of office and people like you give him a free pass.  I wonder what other snippets of news went past us all while we became obsessed with this non argument. What little gems has Trump tried to hide in the last week.

[attrayant]

17 minutes ago, amvet said:

To the country for which the flag and Anthem stands.

 

It is meaningless to give respect to inanimate objects.  Standing to show respect is worthless, and accomplishes nothing except perhaps to make you feel good about yourself.  And there is nothing wrong with that - just don't expect me to need the same self-assurance.

 

Quote

The flag or anthem in and of itself is not worthy of respect as it's a song and a piece of cloth.

 

And "the country" is a patch of dirt with an imaginary line drawn around it to tell people who weren't born here to keep out.  You can respect the soldiers who fought for our freedoms and rights - one of which is the right to protest.  If things went your way, you'd have us all lose the right of peaceful protest - a right they fought and died to protect.  I wonder how our fallen soldiers would feel about that.

 

If respecting a nation is really important to you, do it in a meaningful way.  You can take care of the land (as farmers do), you can improve it (as civil engineers do), you can serve its citizens as civil servants do, and you can conserve its natural resources.  But to state simply "I respect this patch of land I'm standing on" is an empty, contrived platitude.

Edited October 2, 2017 by attrayant

[Opl]

10 minutes ago, amvet said:

Even back to the Berlin Olympics in 1936 I think you will find that sportsmen would rather keep sport clear of politics. 

 

All this thread long , I refrained from posting this picture of Tommie Smith,  John Carlos AND Peter Norman  

but since you did, I'm pleased to remind some facts: 

These two gloved fists will remain forever in the history of Olympic sport as a sign of courage and freedom in order to show the world the injustices suffered by black Americans. The two African-American athletes presented themselves even barefoot, symbol of poverty. This gesture provoked controversial reactions in the United States and the discontent of the Olympic Committee, which decided to exclude the two sprinters for life. Peter Norman, the Australian athlete, will also be sanctioned by his country: he will not be selected for the 72 Olympics in Munich.

 

And let's not forget 

Lee Evans, Larry James and t Ron Freeman The next day, three other 400-meter African-American winners, Lee Evans, Larry James and Ron Freeman, will appear on the podium with a black beret, another reference to the continuing injustice

Edited October 2, 2017 by Opl

[amvet]

7 minutes ago, attrayant said:

 

It is meaningless to give respect to inanimate objects.  Standing to show respect is worthless, and accomplishes nothing except perhaps to make you feel good about yourself.  And there is nothing wrong with that - just don't expect me to need the same self-assurance.

 

 

And "the country" is a patch of dirt with an imaginary line drawn around it to tell people who weren't born here to keep out.  You can respect the soldiers who fought for our freedoms and rights - one of which is the right to protest.  If things went your way, you'd have us all lose the right of peaceful protest a right they fought and died to protect.  I wonder how our fallen soldiers would feel about that.

 

If respecting a nation is really important to you, do it in a meaningful way.  You can take care of the land (as farmers do), you can improve it (as civil engineers do), you can serve its citizens as civil servants do, and you can conserve its natural resources.  But to state simply "I respect this patch of land I'm standing on" is an empty, contrived platitude.

Not at all.  I don't find anything wrong with protest.  It's not illegal.  I was a student in college from from 1960 to 67 and was involved in many protests.  I have disagreed with the folks say that say sitting down or raising a fist or kneeling during the National Anthem is not disrespect - it is disrespect and it is a legal protest.  If Trump had kept his mouth shut it would have gone away by now.

 

Do I think there are better ways to protest?  Sure.  A bunch of millionaire playboys playing at protest is not my idea of an effective means of change.  I would have energized Michelle Obama to lead the charge and actually start some change because everyone liked her all colors and all people she was a gem that was unused.

Edited October 2, 2017 by amvet

[Slip]

12 minutes ago, amvet said:

Trump and Mike Ditka and many others reacted to what Kaepernic started. Point of fact.  As far as the chicken and the egg it was Kaepernic first then Trump got elected and reacted much later. 

Kaepernic reacted to institutionalised racism in his country a year or more ago.  Trump got elected 9 months ago.  No one but no one cared about it or was talking about it . 

 

Out of the blue, Trump used the whole thing to whistle up his base and deflect against serious ongoing investigations about his administration. 

 

Trumps cheerleaders cheer every more loudly.

 

Who disrespects the country again?

[amvet]

4 minutes ago, Slip said:

Kaepernic reacted to institutionalised racism in his country a year or more ago.  Trump got elected 9 months ago.  No one but no one cared about it or was talking about it . 

 

Out of the blue, Trump used the whole thing to whistle up his base and deflect against serious ongoing investigations about his administration. 

 

Trumps cheerleaders cheer every more loudly.

 

Who disrespects the country again?

2014 Ferguson (East St Louis) riots.  2015 Baltimore State of Emergency and protests.  2016 Milwaukee Riots.

 

You probably should know a bit more about America before you post.

[Slip]

Just now, amvet said:

2014 Ferguson (East St Louis) riots.  2015 Baltimore State of Emergency and protests.  2016 Milwaukee Riots.

 

You probably should know a bit more about America before you post.

You haven't made a point.  Please let's not block up the thread with this silly to and fro.

[amvet]

Just now, Slip said:

You haven't made a point.  Please let's not block up the thread with this silly to and fro.

You wrote, " No one but no one cared about it or was talking about it." Which was nonsense it was major news all the time Obama was President.  Race relations took a nose dive and there were new riots and new concerns every year.  Why do you think Kaepernick knelt during the National Anthem?  Remember the Black Lives Matter protests?  Well, that was the reason. 

[Slip]

9 minutes ago, amvet said:

You wrote, " No one but no one cared about it or was talking about it." Which was nonsense it was major news all the time Obama was President.  Race relations took a nose dive and there were new riots and new concerns every year.  Why do you think Kaepernick knelt during the National Anthem?  Remember the Black Lives Matter protests?  Well, that was the reason. 

Yes- really.  The news cycle had moved on.  The institiutionalized racism that they were protesting against for the best part of a year wasn't big news the time.  Sure it was important but it wasn't urgent, or at least society was not treating it as urgent.  Trump propelled it to front page international news for the sake of the historical actions of two people who most other people had all but forgotten about.  Why?

 

As for your final couple of questions, I presume it's because the right thinking citizens of the U.S. disagree with the number of unarmed black people being shot by the police.  Wasn't that the point?  Isn't that why you should get behind these protests?  That is what a patriot would do.

[amvet]

8 minutes ago, Slip said:

Yes- really.  The news cycle had moved on.  The institiutionalized racism that they were protesting against for the best part of a year wasn't big news the time.  Sure it was important but it wasn't urgent, or at least society was not treating it as urgent.  Trump propelled it to front page international news for the sake of the historical actions of two people who most other people had all but forgotten about.  Why?

 

As for your final couple of questions, I presume it's because the right thinking citizens of the U.S. disagree with the number of unarmed black people being shot by the police.  Wasn't that the point?  Isn't that why you should get behind these protests?  That is what a patriot would do.

Let me ask you an honest question.  If the immediate threat to your life and property was minority gang members would you care if the police attempted to control those gangs?  Or would you tell the cops to go easy on the minority gang members and try and rehabilitate them even though they broke into your house 3 times in a year?   

 

I didn't see it as a matter of patriotism but a matter of self preservation.  Those football players live in gated communities protected from the gang violence that the rest of us are exposed to so maybe they have a different opinion and feel better about kneeling or sitting or fisting to make a point about the big bad American police.