Trump clashes with sports world over player protests, invitation

[USPatriot]

58% of Americans agree with Trump the majority of Americans find it disrespectful to protest the national anthem

[ilostmypassword]

1 hour ago, USPatriot said:

58% of Americans agree with Trump the majority of Americans find it disrespectful to protest the national anthem

Therefore...?

[ilostmypassword]

2 hours ago, USPatriot said:

58% of Americans agree with Trump the majority of Americans find it disrespectful to protest the national anthem

Poll: Majority Doesn't Think NFL Players Should Be Punished for Anthem Protests

Most Americans disagree with President Donald Trump that football players should be fired for kneeling in protest during the national anthem, but a majority also would prefer that the players stand during the song.

The latest Reuters/Ipsos poll finds that 57 percent of Americans don't think the National Football League should fire players who kneel during the anthem as a protest against racial injustice and police brutality toward African Americans. This includes 61 percent of NFL fans who watch at least a few games each season.

https://www.usnews.com/news/ken-walshs-washington/articles/2017-09-27/poll-majority-doesnt-think-nfl-players-should-be-punished-for-anthem-protests

[inThailand]

3 hours ago, wayned said:

Where was his patriotism when  he got a medical deferment from military service for having sore feet and going to Vietnam?

 

I'm the same age as Trump and if you didn't want to get drafted then you basically had a choice:

1. Flee to Canada and call yourself a "conscientious objector"

2. Become a professional student and continue to get deferred until you graduated.

3.  Pay a doctor to provide  a medical excuse for not being able to serve, usually reserved for the rich elite.

 

Which one do you think might apply to POTUS?

I never professed DT was a patriot.

But he could see  disrepecting the anthem was not going to be accepted. And now its stopped.

[amvet]

On 9/30/2017 at 12:35 AM, Publicus said:

 

These guys are football players and owners though it certainly is not all of 'em. They and we over here are civilians. So I would ask respectfully that former military personnel accept civilian society, its mores, values, beliefs, behaviors. It is risky to the Constitution to try to militarize the civilian society as too many former military personnel campaign to do in their retirement or after they have concluded their active duty military service. It's the veterans and the retired career military personnel especially who need to adjust to civilian society rather than try to make the civilian society more like the military. 

 

While the post uses the word "disrespect" twice it also manufactures and packages a lot of fudge. 

 

The bottom line is that civilian Americans decide how each of us regards our president and each of we who are civilian Americans decide how to conduct him/her self when the national anthem is played. VFW and other national veterans organizations need to concern themselves with veterans programs only while leaving individual civilian Americans to their particular convictions in respect of the national anthem, the flag, the Constitution. The Constitution guides and determines our interactions with the anthem and the flag not vice-versa.  

In other words the NFL can comment on non football issues because I agree with them and the VFW can't comment on non VFW issues because I don't agree with them.

[amvet]

4 hours ago, wayned said:

Where was his patriotism when  he got a medical deferment from military service for having sore feet and going to Vietnam?

 

I'm the same age as Trump and if you didn't want to get drafted then you basically had a choice:

1. Flee to Canada and call yourself a "conscientious objector"

2. Become a professional student and continue to get deferred until you graduated.

3.  Pay a doctor to provide  a medical excuse for not being able to serve, usually reserved for the rich elite.

 

Which one do you think might apply to POTUS?

Al Gore spent a couple of months in Vietnam writing for Stars and Stripes.  Clinton went to Oxford and smoked pot.  Bush flew a jet in Texas (probably the most dangerous job).  John Kerry saw combat but then mucked it up throwing some ones medals over the fence.  BTW the student deferment ran out in a set period of time not at graduation.  It was a confused time and I don't know how it relates to kneeling.  If Trump accepted some gratuitous Army job like Gore would it be more legitimate for him to whine about kneeling? 

Edited October 1, 2017 by amvet

[wayned]

3 minutes ago, amvet said:

BTW the student deferment ran out in a set period of time not at graduation. 

Maybe for professional students, but mine ran out the day that I graduated and I got a letter to report for a physical 15 days later.  I avoided the draft by enlisting into the service branch and MOS that I wanted and turned down an OCS program that pretty much guaranteed that you would graduate with a bulls eye painted on your back!

[amvet]

6 minutes ago, wayned said:

Maybe for professional students, but mine ran out the day that I graduated and I got a letter to report for a physical 15 days later.  I avoided the draft by enlisting into the service branch and MOS that I wanted and turned down an OCS program that pretty much guaranteed that you would graduate with a bulls eye painted on your back!

I told my draft board I was going to Tijuana to study Spanish and it didn't fly.  

[ilostmypassword]

48 minutes ago, amvet said:

Al Gore spent a couple of months in Vietnam writing for Stars and Stripes.  Clinton went to Oxford and smoked pot.  Bush flew a jet in Texas (probably the most dangerous job).  John Kerry saw combat but then mucked it up throwing some ones medals over the fence.  BTW the student deferment ran out in a set period of time not at graduation.  It was a confused time and I don't know how it relates to kneeling.  If Trump accepted some gratuitous Army job like Gore would it be more legitimate for him to whine about kneeling? 

Nice irrelevant slam at Kerry.

[ilostmypassword]

50 minutes ago, amvet said:

Al Gore spent a couple of months in Vietnam writing for Stars and Stripes.  Clinton went to Oxford and smoked pot.  Bush flew a jet in Texas (probably the most dangerous job).  John Kerry saw combat but then mucked it up throwing some ones medals over the fence.  BTW the student deferment ran out in a set period of time not at graduation.  It was a confused time and I don't know how it relates to kneeling.  If Trump accepted some gratuitous Army job like Gore would it be more legitimate for him to whine about kneeling? 

And I don't see any of them questioning the patriotism of those players. That's on Trump.

[Thakkar]

8 hours ago, wayned said:

Where was his patriotism when  he got a medical deferment from military service for having sore feet and going to Vietnam?

 

I'm the same age as Trump and if you didn't want to get drafted then you basically had a choice:

1. Flee to Canada and call yourself a "conscientious objector"

2. Become a professional student and continue to get deferred until you graduated.

3.  Pay a doctor to provide  a medical excuse for not being able to serve, usually reserved for the rich elite.

 

Which one do you think might apply to POTUS?

 

Hey, all those NY models weren’t gonna date themselves! Somebody had to stay back and do it.

[Publicus]

5 hours ago, amvet said:

In other words the NFL can comment on non football issues because I agree with them and the VFW can't comment on non VFW issues because I don't agree with them.

 

Any batter who keeps swinging like that is gonna strike out. He'd be in the league's top ten whiffers.

 

Again, civilian and military relations are clearly proscribed in the Constitution. Again, again, many veterans want to militarize the civilian soceity, i.e., impose on civilian society the values and mores of the military. This calls forth the matter of civilian control of the military to include respecting civilian life and its values and mores. Many veterans need to adjust to the civilian society which is the 99% of us. I had no difficulty readjusting but we see at the internet discussion boards many vets demand civilian compliance to military general orders, the Uniform Code of Military Justice and to the infallibility of the military ways of being a patriot.

 

The Constitution all members of the military took an oath to preserve, protect, defend, guides us and it is determining in all matters to include the national anthem and the flag. The anthem is not above the Constitution. The anthem exists subordinate to the Constitution.

[amvet]

1 hour ago, Publicus said:

 

Any batter who keeps swinging like that is gonna strike out. He'd be in the league's top ten whiffers.

 

Again, civilian and military relations are clearly proscribed in the Constitution. Again, again, many veterans want to militarize the civilian soceity, i.e., impose on civilian society the values and mores of the military. This calls forth the matter of civilian control of the military to include respecting civilian life and its values and mores. Many veterans need to adjust to the civilian society which is the 99% of us. I had no difficulty readjusting but we see at the internet discussion boards many vets demand civilian compliance to military general orders, the Uniform Code of Military Justice and to the infallibility of the military ways of being a patriot.

 

The Constitution all members of the military took an oath to preserve, protect, defend, guides us and it is determining in all matters to include the national anthem and the flag. The anthem is not above the Constitution. The anthem exists subordinate to the Constitution.

You wrote, "VFW and other national veterans organizations need to concern themselves with veterans programs only" No they don't.  They are free to comment on whatever the majority of their members like as it's a right guaranteed in the Constitution.   Because you are an odd duck as far as vets go is OK with me.  If you have a Vets org that wants to disrespect the anthem by kneeling down or anything else I'd support your right to comment. 

[Thakkar]

50 minutes ago, amvet said:

If you have a Vets org that wants to disrespect the anthem by kneeling down or anything else I'd support your right to comment. 

 

It has never been about disrespecting anything.

Eric Reid, former teammate of Colin Kaepernick, in an op-ed for The New York Times:

“After hours of careful consideration, and even a visit from Nate Boyer, a retired Green Beret and former N.F.L. player, we came to the conclusion that we should kneel, rather than sit, the next day during the anthem as a peaceful protest. We chose to kneel because it’s a respectful gesture. I remember thinking our posture was like a flag flown at half-mast to mark a tragedy.

It baffles me that our protest is still being misconstrued as disrespectful to the country, flag and military personnel. We chose it because it’s exactly the opposite. It has always been my understanding that the brave men and women who fought and died for our country did so to ensure that we could live in a fair and free society, which includes the right to speak out in protest.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/25/opinion/colin-kaepernick-football-protests.html?_r=1

[Jingthing]

trump managed to fool a lot of people to think the kneeling thing was about being unpatriotic. Typical slime ball diversionary racist dog whistle tactic of our current shockingly DISGRACEFUL so called president. 

[Jip99]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

trump managed to fool a lot of people to think the kneeling thing was about being unpatriotic. Typical slime ball diversionary racist dog whistle tactic of our current shockingly DISGRACEFUL so called president. 

 

 

You omitted the term....... "democratically elected"... there somewhere.

[Publicus]

15 minutes ago, amvet said:

You wrote, "VFW and other national veterans organizations need to concern themselves with veterans programs only" No they don't.  They are free to comment on whatever the majority of their members like as it's a right guaranteed in the Constitution.   Because you are an odd duck as far as vets go is OK with me.  If you have a Vets org that wants to disrespect the anthem by kneeling down or anything else I'd support your right to comment. 

 

UCMJ hasn't applied to me in several decades.

 

It doesn't apply to you either any more. UCMJ has never applied to civilians.

 

Your notions of disrespect derive from a code that rightfully does not apply to the civilian society and its members. The Constitution is supreme, not the anthem or the flag and not a narrow and specific set of codes that demand a disciplined compliance by the few.

 

What applies to all of us is the Constitution some of us affirmed to preserve and protect. Your demands that civilian society adhere to the military demands concerning anthem playing is OTT. You can blow your whistle all you like but youse on the right have only yourselves going OTT.

 

Next time you point and tap the NFL onto your tv screen and see the flag and hear the anthem do kindly remember this: Military music is to music as military justice is to justice. Much of the Constitution does not apply to active duty military personnel but the Constitution does apply to youse now. Kindly learn to respect it and to respect the civilian society the Constitution does guide and serve and who live by it each day. 

[Publicus]

5 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

You omitted the term....... "democratically elected"... there somewhere.

 

Trump is our current president and next unindicted coconspirator.

[LannaGuy]

Just watched Malaysian F1 and all 3 on podium removed their hats to respect the winning anthem. It's about politeness and respect not about party politics and making a 'point'. let sports stay sports. 

[Jip99]

Just now, LannaGuy said:

Just watched Malaysian F1 and all 3 on podium removed their hats to respect the winning anthem. It's about politeness and respect not about party politics and making a 'point'. let sports stay sports. 

 

 

So true.

 

 

Huge difference in quality of the individuals concerned.

 

[wayned]

8 minutes ago, LannaGuy said:

Just watched Malaysian F1 and all 3 on podium removed their hats to respect the winning anthem. It's about politeness and respect not about party politics and making a 'point'. let sports stay sports. 

The winner of the Grand Prix was dutch.  I wonder what would have happened if the winner had been a Rohingya and they played the Myanmar national anthem.

[Opl]

27 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

You omitted the term....... "democratically elected"... there somewhere.

 

" Blowing up our American political game with citizens, institutions, and identities for the sheer hell of it, turning it into a full-blown Competition Game … that’s a historic tragedy. We don’t get over that."

https://southfront.org/the-game-theory-of-trump-not-every-tweet-is-a-constitutional-crisis/

Edited October 1, 2017 by Opl

[amvet]

To all concerned.  Of course kneeling down is disrespectful.  That's the point.  Those guys feel that America disrespects black people and the black people want to show disrespect in return.  Normal behavior during the playing of a National Anthem is standing up with hand on heart.  A fist, the bird, mooning, turning your back, kneeling down or standing on your head, sticking out your tongue or throwing a shoe are elements of disrespect. 

 

Before you can have a discussion one should agree on the terms being discussed.  If I punch you in the face that is not a sign of liking you. 

Edited October 1, 2017 by amvet

[Opl]

8 minutes ago, amvet said:

To all concerned.  Of course kneeling down is disrespectful.  That's the point.  Those guys feel that America disrespects black people and the black people want to show disrespect in return.  Normal behavior during the playing of a National Anthem is standing up with hand on heart.  A fist, the bird, mooning, turning your back, kneeling down or standing on your head, sticking out your tongue or throwing a shoe are elements of disrespect. 

 

"This week, a high official, the president of the United States, has repeatedly called for the punishment of American citizens for exercising the very right guaranteed by Barnette — the right to refuse to salute the flag. Or, more precisely, the right to modify their salute to the flag.The decision to kneel represented a defense of the ideals of the flag, not defiance of the nation they love."

 

-> the right to modify their salute to the flag.The decision to kneel represented a defense of the ideals of the flag, not defiance of the nation they love
Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/451697/donald-trump-nfl-protests-why-they-knelt

Edited October 1, 2017 by Opl

[amvet]

8 minutes ago, Opl said:

 

"This week, a high official, the president of the United States, has repeatedly called for the punishment of American citizens for exercising the very right guaranteed by Barnette — the right to refuse to salute the flag. Or, more precisely, the right to modify their salute to the flag.The decision to kneel represented a defense of the ideals of the flag, not defiance of the nation they love."

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/451697/donald-trump-nfl-protests-why-they-knelt

That has nothing to do with my post.  Any half brained idiot knows disrespect is not a crime in the USA. If one does a bad job they should be fired.  Engaging in controversial behavior while representing a sports team to me seems ignoring the basic tenets of marketing.  It is very easy to punish a President.  Don't vote for him.  Happens every 4 years not every time he does something stupid. 

Edited October 1, 2017 by amvet

[LannaGuy]

30 minutes ago, wayned said:

The winner of the Grand Prix was dutch.  I wonder what would have happened if the winner had been a Rohingya and they played the Myanmar national anthem.

 

The same.

[Opl]

15 minutes ago, amvet said:

 

That has nothing to do with my post.  Any half brained idiot knows disrespect is not a crime in the USA.

 

Patriotism? Rather highjack.. "Every half brained" knows Trump made the reason for his fight with the NFL clear .

 

"The President is attempting to hide behind the flag to dodge the growing darkness of the Russia scandal."

http://www.politicususa.com/2017/09/24/trump-hides-flag-putins-shadow-leaves-presidency-perpetual-darkness.html

Edited October 1, 2017 by Opl

[Si Thea01]

36 minutes ago, wayned said:

The winner of the Grand Prix was dutch.  I wonder what would have happened if the winner had been a Rohingya and they played the Myanmar national anthem.

The second sentence, hypothetical, foolish and irrelevant.           

[wayned]

2 minutes ago, amvet said:

Any half brained idiot knows disrespect is not a crime in the USA.

Any half brai8ned idiot would know that kneeling is not a sign of disrespect!  Just ask a catholic, kneeling shows their humility before God and definitely not  disrespect!

[amvet]

7 minutes ago, wayned said:

Any half brai8ned idiot would know that kneeling is not a sign of disrespect!  Just ask a catholic, kneeling shows their humility before God and definitely not  disrespect!

They slap a child during the confirmation ceremony is that child abuse?  You are really stretching.  Turning around to urinate is a sign of respect in some places but not during the playing of a National anthem.