North Korea accuses U.S. of declaring war

[sawadeeken]

5 hours ago, quadperfect said:

I really do think kim is insane enough to shoot down a plane in international air space.

 

If he could.................... Those bombers are escorted by fighter jets and other decoy tactics to lead a rocket off course............ but upon being attacked they could then justify delivering their pay load and call for more to be delivered............

Much like 'swatting a mosquito' that is biting you...................

[Cory1848]

9 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Well, I at least have to give the maniac Kim credit for one thing --  his use of the English language.

 

When he first called Trump a "dotard," considering the target of his jibe, I thought he meant to call Trump a "retard," which would be fitting for the subject.

 

But no, Kim was using a word I don't think I've ever heard used before, and I know I've never used before -- DOTARD -- an old person, especially one who has become weak or senile.

For all his faults, I don't think Trump is weak.  But senile, mentally deranged, some kind of a retard, well, I'll leave open any judgment on those qualities. 

Not sure that you can credit Kim for the English; apparently, he used the word "neukdari," which, according to an item in the NY Times, is a "common [Korean] derogatory term for an old person." Apparently, the NK State News Service provided the English translation of Kim's words, and, according to the Times reporter, that agency uses "very old" dictionaries for their translations. In any event, Trump is both a "neukdari" and a dotard and all those other things you say he is, and that makes him very, very weak.

[Thaidream]

So much innuendo and biased information here and much of it inaccurate.  Throughout the years the US has shown a tremendous amount of restraint even when NKorea has violated the armistice . I was in the US military and in SKorea and know firsthand that NKorea consistently violated the armistice -

-NK seized a US Naval Ship the USS Pueblo operating in international waters- the US did not attack NKorea

-NK violated the Demilitarized Zone by sending agents into the zone thousands of times-to try and enter SKorea- the US did not attack

-NK built invasion tunnels under the DMZ which are still there- the US did not attack

-NK killed 2 American officers inside the neutral zone in Panmunjon- the US did not attack

-NK sank a SKorea vessel in international waters- again no attack

-NK continued to build nuclear weapons against United Nations sanctions and has fired missiles over Japan- all in violation of sanctions- again no attack

-NK has used cyber attacks against American business interests and counterfeited huge amounts of US Dollars over the years - no attacks from the US.

 

During several American administrations going back to before Clinton- the Us has attempted to get NKorea to the negotiating table using a carrot and stick approach- every agreement made -NKorea has broken and continue unabated its desire to nuclearize the Korean Peninsula

 

While I do not want a war - and do not advocate an American first strike- it is evident that if NKorea attacks the Us by either shooting down a US plane in International Airspace; lobs a missile into a US territory such as Guam or drops a missile into SKorea or Japan- the US will respond.  In addition, an attack on America will trigger Nato; Anzus; and possibly the Southeast Asia Treaty Organization.  An attack on one- is considered an attack on all.  In such a scenario- the UK, all of Europe; Australia and New Zealand and yes even Thailand and the Philippines will be in the war.

 

The one thing I will agree with everyone on is that Donald Trump needs to learn the art of diplomacy and international negotiation. Everyone knows what America is capable of militarily- now is the time to keep quiet and let China, Russia or some of the European Nations use their skills to get everyone to the negotiating table. No sensible citizen of the World wants a war- but no sensible citizen of any country wants a rouge state such as NKorea threatening the use of a nuclear weapon.  Let's hope that cooler minds start the negotiating process.

Edited September 26, 2017 by Thaidream

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Your analysis above is kind of self-contradicting:

 

Quote

 

During several American administrations going back to before Clinton- the Us has attempted to get NKorea to the negotiating table using a carrot and stick approach- every agreement made -NKorea has broken and continue unabated its desire to nuclearize the Korean Peninsula

 

Quote

Let's hope that cooler minds start the negotiating process.

 

Been there, done that. Look at the result of all the past negotiating that's occurred. That's what got N.K. to the dangerous place it is today.

 

Not saying I like it. Not saying it's good. Just saying, that's the reality of the situation.

 

 

Edited September 26, 2017 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[The Deerhunter]

What Asian allies Kim?   Look out the window at the Chinese and Russian warships.  The guy really could do something stupid.  His ego is actually biggest than Trump's.   He will never back down.  It's getting very serious, this and Syria.  And The Donald needs to learn to bite his tongue.  This guy from his myopic upbringing is not the guy to call silly nsmes

Edited September 26, 2017 by The Deerhunter

[Yann55]

5 hours ago, Rancid said:

Economic war often leads to actual war, so in a way NK is correct that the US has declared war. Likewise the tried and proven flying your air-force around a country and stationing your ships offshore could hardly be called anything but intimidation and threat of invasion.

 

The US when formed was a shining beacon of light for a free society as opposed to the autocratic European monarchies, a great loss for humanity that the money men took it over and created the concept of perpetual war.

 

 

Thanks to you and Cory1848, this thread is one of the few that remind me why I keep reading Thai Visa Forum, in spite of the considerable amount of absurd, brainless bigotry that is being spewed with every 'discussion'.

 

Right after you wrote your post, some typical angry American patriot lashes out at you in perfect schoolyard rethoric : 'ha ! so you're saying that NK has no responsibility in this?' ... This level of 'discussion' is exactly where the last American presidential campaign has brought 'reason' and 'intelligence' : to their knees.

 

Facts : 1/ NK's dictator is a demented spoilt brat with nuclear weapons at his disposal. 2/ Saddam Hussein was a bloody dictator who had no objection with gassing children by the thousands if they happened to belong to the wrong ethnic group. 3/ ISIS are a group of mad terrorists who get high on the notion that they yield enough power to challenge Goliath and turn the world into a ball of fire.

 

Question : Because the above facts are true, are we to switch off our capacity for reasoning, our intellectual honesty, our ability to question history, both recent and ancient, in order to make sense of what is going on at the present time ?

 

If we do decide not to silence our intelligence and honesty, we will be reminded that :

 

1/ The amount of bombs (including napalm) showered on North Korea by the US in the 1950s is stupefying. Air Force General Curtis Le May, who headed the Strategic Air Command during the Korean War, told the Office of Air Force History in 1984 : “Over a period of three years or so, we killed off ... what ? 20 percent of the population". That is not North Korean propaganda, it's a statement made by the American military man who oversaw the 'operation'. Twenty percent, now that's about 2 million people. Not 2 million Kim Jong-Uns, two million people like you and me. Does anyone imagine that Krazy Kim has a hard time reminding the North Koreans why they should hate the US ? Oh sure, he's doing it for the wrong reasons, but isn't that a recurring practice in politics, and everywhere ?

 

2/ George W. Bush did not invade Iraq to bring freedom, peace and democracy in that country. He knew that the regime was not developing weapons of mass destruction, and lied about that to the whole world, apparently without the slightest hint of guilt (his legendary smirk is what blankets any form of guilt in that guy's deranged personality). He didn't give a damn about Sadam's morals and tactics. The invasion was carried out for purely economical and self-serving political reasons. It's a chilling assessment, it's mind boggling for anyone who still believes that our Western countries are functional democracies, but it's the truth, a truth that hurts like hell for Westerners who, unlike George W., have a conscience.

 

3/ ISIS did not arise spontaneously, they are the direct result of Western imperialism, and I won't take up the impossible task of summarizing in a few words what has been going on in the middle East from Saladin (1137-1193) to the 2003 George W. Bush invasion of Iraq, but that's where the explanations are to be found, and there are lots of very good books on the subject, many of them written by intellectually honest American researchers, scholars, and journalists, a species that is alive and well, thank God.

 

 

Edited September 26, 2017 by Yann55

[TKDfella]

7 hours ago, ezzra said:

William T. Sherman quotes (showing 1-28 of 28) “It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.”

Maybe so, but those who are 'shrieking' at the moment have the power to press the button.

[Thaidream]

What's your point?  As an American who knows History well- your description of  Kim and Sadam may e accurate and the American  invasion of Iraq based upon so called weapons of mass destruction a horrid  abuse of power.  Shall we throw in Afghanistan and Syria and also the Vietnam  War.

 

However, we are talking about NKorea and their threat to use nuclear weapons.  As I have mentioned in numerous posts- in this case- America has been vastly patient. I know- I was there and saw the intelligence reports each day.   As I stated should NKorea attack-  Nato comes into play- Europe is then at war with NKorea- .  NKorea is a danger to the World not only because it is threatening to explode nuclear weapons because by its past actions- could actually sell the technology or a weapon to a radical Islamic State or to a terrorist group such as ISIS. Do you really want to see London, Paris, or New York in flames?

 

This is isn't about America's past failed policies in Vietnam; Iraq or the Middle East. This is about NKorea representing a clear and present danger to the World.  I am not an American patriot per se and I will criticize the US whenever necessary but the situation with NKorea is not an American invention- nor only an American responsibility. The World needs to unite on this issue before war becomes the only answer. 

[dunroaming]

Kim and Trump both want their legs slapped and be made to sit on the naughty step.  The problem is that with both the nutcases trying to bait each other further and further there has to come a point where one of them oversteps the line.  

[Kieran00001]

10 hours ago, LannaGuy said:

 including the right to shoot down United States strategic bombers even when they are not inside the airspace border of our country.

 

They are really asking for it, almost begging, for a conflict. Hope China steps in before it's too late but there is some sort of 'inevitability' about this.

 

It would appear that both sides are begging for it, presumably Trump sees war as his only chance of regaining any resemblance of popularity, Kim probably just knows that he has nothing to lose, after all he has been threatened with everything from regime change to total annihilation, perhaps all this has made him think that if he is going he might as well go out with a bang.

[Kieran00001]

1 hour ago, Thaidream said:

What's your point?  As an American who knows History well- your description of  Kim and Sadam may e accurate and the American  invasion of Iraq based upon so called weapons of mass destruction a horrid  abuse of power.  Shall we throw in Afghanistan and Syria and also the Vietnam  War.

 

However, we are talking about NKorea and their threat to use nuclear weapons.  As I have mentioned in numerous posts- in this case- America has been vastly patient. I know- I was there and saw the intelligence reports each day.   As I stated should NKorea attack-  Nato comes into play- Europe is then at war with NKorea- .  NKorea is a danger to the World not only because it is threatening to explode nuclear weapons because by its past actions- could actually sell the technology or a weapon to a radical Islamic State or to a terrorist group such as ISIS. Do you really want to see London, Paris, or New York in flames?

 

This is isn't about America's past failed policies in Vietnam; Iraq or the Middle East. This is about NKorea representing a clear and present danger to the World.  I am not an American patriot per se and I will criticize the US whenever necessary but the situation with NKorea is not an American invention- nor only an American responsibility. The World needs to unite on this issue before war becomes the only answer. 

 

Some would say it was North Korea who showed the patience, since the end of the Korean War the US threatened them with nuclear attack no less than 16 times, it is only now many years and many threats later that they have returned the favour.

[Kieran00001]

6 hours ago, craigt3365 said:

North Korea has been threatening nuclear strikes against various countries well before Trump came on the scene.  You are right, he's not making matters any better.  Only making them worse.  But we are where we are due to the actions of NK.  Nobody else to blame but them.

 

All the countries that agreed to put embargoes and sanctions on them over the years are also to blame, NK chose communism, that was their only crime, then came the sanctions and they were isolated and felt threatened, the US installed massive amounts of hardware pointing at them, they rightly felt threatened, and so they put every cent that they could into arms, and the worlds answer is even more sanctions, it is a vicious circle that has spiralled out of control since Trump started shooting his mouth off.

[Morch]

6 hours ago, Cory1848 said:

I don't think anyone here is wearing blinders regarding the nature of the North Korean regime. As you say, Trump makes an existing situation worse -- much, much worse -- with inflated rhetoric and stupid machismo.

 

If you persist with the "anyone" bit, then it is you wearing blinders. A whole lot of posts going on about North Korea's rights etc., which are nothing but conflating North Korea and Kim's regime. Trump makes a bad situation worse, a situation which wasn't created by him, and which Kim was party to long before Trump.

[Morch]

16 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

All the countries that agreed to put embargoes and sanctions on them over the years are also to blame, NK chose communism, that was their only crime, then came the sanctions and they were isolated and felt threatened, the US installed massive amounts of hardware pointing at them, they rightly felt threatened, and so they put every cent that they could into arms, and the worlds answer is even more sanctions, it is a vicious circle that has spiralled out of control since Trump started shooting his mouth off.

 

North Koreans didn't choose anything for many, many years. 

Substitute Kim (or one of his predecessors) with North Korea, see if the above justification still works.

[MyFriend You]

26 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Some would say it was North Korea who showed the patience, since the end of the Korean War the US threatened them with nuclear attack no less than 16 times, it is only now many years and many threats later that they have returned the favour.

16 Times huh??  well I am sure you are able to back this up with a link or some sort..........The US pulled out all its nuclear arsenal from South Korea in 1985 - I was there and assigned to a warhead site so I know this for a fact.  Here is an piece of the article:  

^{_{WASHINGTON, Oct. 19, 1984— The United States plans to withdraw all nuclear bombs from South Korea, Administration officials said today. Coming on top of cuts in nuclear missiles and artillery shells announced by President Bush last month, the new move would mean no nuclear weapons would remain in that country.}}

^{_{The officials said the step would be taken in part to persuade North Korea to permit international inspection of its nuclear plants and in part because the American military believes the bombs are no longer necessary to defend South Korea.}}

_{But, hey, don't let a little thing like 'facts' get in the way of your 20 seconds of fame, send us the link showing we threatened to NUKE the NORKS.}

[Kieran00001]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

North Koreans didn't choose anything for many, many years. 

Substitute Kim (or one of his predecessors) with North Korea, see if the above justification still works.

 

Oh, and you were the one who chose capitalism and democracy for your country I suppose, silly stuff, North Korea, the country, chose communism, and you may care to note that they did that out of admiration for what the communists did for them in overthrowing their imperial masters, the Japanese.  If it were not for the Cold War and US involvement in the Korean divide they may well have unified in the 50's, either as communists or capitalists, who knows, but chances are if it had of been the former then they most likely would have given up on it by now.

[Morch]

Just now, Kieran00001 said:

 

Oh, and you were the one who chose capitalism and democracy for your country I suppose, silly stuff, North Korea, the country, chose communism, and you may care to note that they did that out of admiration for what the communists did for them in overthrowing their imperial masters, the Japanese.  If it were not for the Cold War and US involvement in the Korean divide they may well have unified in the 50's, either as communists or capitalists, who knows, but chances are if it had of been the former then they most likely would have given up on it by now.

 

No, I didn't. But I get to vote and try to affect changes. North Koreans are not afforded this opportunity. But then you already knew that before posting.

 

This is about Kim's political survival, not about North Koreans' rights, choices or well-being.

[Kieran00001]

2 minutes ago, TunnelRat69 said:

16 Times huh??  well I am sure you are able to back this up with a link or some sort..........The US pulled out all its nuclear arsenal from South Korea in 1985 - I was there and assigned to a warhead site so I know this for a fact.  Here is an piece of the article:  

^{_{WASHINGTON, Oct. 19, 1984— The United States plans to withdraw all nuclear bombs from South Korea, Administration officials said today. Coming on top of cuts in nuclear missiles and artillery shells announced by President Bush last month, the new move would mean no nuclear weapons would remain in that country.}}

^{_{The officials said the step would be taken in part to persuade North Korea to permit international inspection of its nuclear plants and in part because the American military believes the bombs are no longer necessary to defend South Korea.}}

_{But, hey, don't let a little thing like 'facts' get in the way of your 20 seconds of fame, send us the link showing we threatened to NUKE the NORKS.}

 

I don't have a link as it was in a documentary I saw, they referenced each time, not sure what relevance you thought the removal of nukes from South Korea in 84 had but I didn't actually give any time frame, the threats were a long time ago, back in the Cold War days, but they did threaten them, in fact Nixon even once gave the order to prepare to bomb an airstrip in NK with a 330 kiloton nuke but later gave the order to stand down.

[Kieran00001]

11 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

No, I didn't. But I get to vote and try to affect changes. North Koreans are not afforded this opportunity. But then you already knew that before posting.

 

This is about Kim's political survival, not about North Koreans' rights, choices or well-being.

 

Then why have you gone off on this tangent, it has nothing to do with what I was saying, that North Korea chose communism and that if it were not for the US involvement, for the Cold War, we most likely would not be in this situation and neither would NK.

[MyFriend You]

1 minute ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

I don't have a link as it was in a documentary I saw, they referenced each time, not sure what relevance you thought the removal of nukes from South Korea in 84 had but I didn't actually give any time frame, the threats were a long time ago, back in the Cold War days, but they did threaten them, in fact Nixon even once gave the order to prepare to bomb an airstrip in NK with a 330 kiloton nuke but later gave the order to stand down.

Fair enough, I am a history buff and vaguely remember a president  threatening N Korea with B-52 stirke, but stood down, I think it was during the Ax Murders on the DMX that killed a few GI's and wounded several more over cutting down a tree.  But don't remember any reference to Nukes.

[craigt3365]

51 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

All the countries that agreed to put embargoes and sanctions on them over the years are also to blame, NK chose communism, that was their only crime, then came the sanctions and they were isolated and felt threatened, the US installed massive amounts of hardware pointing at them, they rightly felt threatened, and so they put every cent that they could into arms, and the worlds answer is even more sanctions, it is a vicious circle that has spiralled out of control since Trump started shooting his mouth off.

Right.  So the rest of the world is wrong, and NK is in the right.  Too funny.  Cuba chose communism also.  Why aren't they having this same problem?  LOL

[Kieran00001]

13 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

Right.  So the rest of the world is wrong, and NK is in the right.  Too funny.  Cuba chose communism also.  Why aren't they having this same problem?  LOL

 

Where did I say that NK is in the right?  I guess you are new to the English language, try looking up the word "also" before attempting another reply.  And Cuba is no longer Communist but when they were we were having similar issues with them, but I guess you are also new to current affairs and have never even heard of the Cuban missile crisis.

[craigt3365]

11 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Where did I say that NK is in the right?  I guess you are new to the English language, try looking up the word "also" before attempting another reply.  And Cuba is no longer Communist but when they were we were having similar issues with them, but I guess you are also new to current affairs and have never even heard of the Cuban missile crisis.

Again. Their only crime is pursuing communism? LOL.

 

Cuba is a Socialist government. I've been there several times. And know their history well. Be nice.

[dunroaming]

Good thread well argued on both sides.  The situation is getting dangerous with both leaders accelerating this to a military conclusion if not reined in.  If this does end in military action from either side then they are still both to blame and the blood will be on their hands.  Either of them could back off but neither of them have enough brains to do so. 

 

Where are the grown-ups when you need them!

[scorecard]

6 hours ago, Cory1848 said:

Not sure that you can credit Kim for the English; apparently, he used the word "neukdari," which, according to an item in the NY Times, is a "common [Korean] derogatory term for an old person." Apparently, the NK State News Service provided the English translation of Kim's words, and, according to the Times reporter, that agency uses "very old" dictionaries for their translations. In any event, Trump is both a "neukdari" and a dotard and all those other things you say he is, and that makes him very, very weak.

 

Not the point but the dictator does speak advanced English, he was educated from a small boy to early twenties in Switzerland.

[julietx]

classic "wag the dog" from trump

[Kieran00001]

1 hour ago, craigt3365 said:

Again. Their only crime is pursuing communism? LOL.

 

Cuba is a Socialist government. I've been there several times. And know their history well. Be nice.

 

Youre really not doing very well, I did not say their crime IS choosing communism, I said their only crime WAS choosing communism, and then the sanctions came that led them to chose spending beyond their ability on arms which left the country in ruins, plenty of atrocities have followed but their crime that got them sanctioned in the first place was just being communist, the same as Cuba.

 

And Cuba is socialist but not communist, you are confusing politics and economics.

[Dumbastheycome]

It  would  seem  reasonably  obvious  that since  China  has  apparently stated  that  an attack on  NK  would  require intervention  on  NK  behalf yet  an attack  by  NK  on others  would  require  it's assistance  in  defence  against  NK that  China  is/has  attempted  to  set a  blockade  against  initial attack  by  either  side. A  very  reasoned  strategy in the  circumstance  because   proximity  and  significant  military  capacity are very  relevant  factors.

The  weakness  of  that strategy  is  that  blatant incitement  to  make the first move by  NK is  obvious .

The  significance  of the  accusation  of  a  "Declaration  of  War " is  that it is  exclusive  to  the  USA with regard  to  NK because the  status  of  the  war  between  NK  and  SK remains  in a  state  of  impass /truce.

So  does   NK consider  this  a new  war  or  a breaking  of  the truce?

It  does  become  confusing  when it is  considered   that  NK  has a  seat  in the  UN  which  also   has  imposed  sanctions  and  approval for  measures  of  containment containment on  both  occasions!

Too  often  I am  led  to  think  that  international  political  headlines   should  be  preceded with  the  same  advisory  that  movies  of  fiction  Based  on  Reality   should  be  included. The   Iraq  war and  the preamble  to  that  as  an example.

The   most  dangerous  aspect  is  that if  someone stutters  badly  when  reading their part  of the  script  is  that  the  result  could  be  a disaster  rather  than a necessity  for the  impossible  retake! 

 

[Mrjlh]

Only the US Congress can declare war. End of conversation, rest is BS.

[Kieran00001]

33 minutes ago, Mrjlh said:

Only the US Congress can declare war. End of conversation, rest is BS.

 

Yeah, they did that in the 50's, that war is not actually legally over, and any breach of the cease fire agreement would make a strike on an American aircraft flying over a neighbouring country perfectly legal, Trump really does have to be careful on this one.