Violence erupts as Catalans vote on split from Spain

[webfact]

Violence erupts as Catalans vote on split from Spain

By Sam Edwards

 

Spanish Civil Guard officers break through a door at a polling station for the banned independence referendum where Catalan President Carles Puigdemont was supposed to vote in Sant Julia de Ramis, Spain October 1, 2017. REUTERS/Juan Medina

 

BARCELONA (Reuters) - Spanish riot police burst into polling stations across Catalonia on Sunday, seizing ballot boxes and voting papers to prevent a banned referendum on a split from Spain in a show of force aimed at asserting Madrid's authority over the rebel region.

 

Police hit people with batons, fired rubber bullets into crowds and forcibly removed would-be voters from polling stations in actions that were condemned internationally but described by the government as "proportionate".

 

The referendum, declared illegal by Spain's central government, has pitched the country into its deepest constitutional crisis in decades and deepened a centuries-old rift between Madrid and Barcelona.

 

Despite the police action, hundreds-strong queues of people formed in cities and villages throughout the region to cast their ballots.

"I'm so pleased because despite all the hurdles they've put up, I've managed to vote," said Teresa, a 72-year-old pensioner in Barcelona who had stood in line for six hours to vote.

 

Polling stations' opening hours would not be extended, a regional government spokesman said, but all those still queuing would be allowed to vote. It was still not known when the results would be announced, he said, adding it had been a long day and it would be a long count.

 

Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont originally said that if the "yes" vote won, the Catalan government would declare independence within 48 hours, but regional leaders have since acknowledged Madrid's crackdown has undermined the vote.

 

However many vote, a "yes" result is likely, given that most of those who support independence are expected to cast ballots while most of those against it are not.

 

At one voting station, a man with a Spanish flag wrapped around him cast a vote while others cheered. Polls show around 40 percent of the wealthy northeastern region want independence from Spain although a majority wanted a referendum on the issue.

 

The ballot will have no legal status as it has been blocked by Spain's Constitutional Court which ruled it at odds with the 1978 constitution that effectively restored democracy in Spain after the dictatorship of General Francisco Franco.

 

Markets have reacted cautiously but calmly to the situation so far, though credit rating agency S&P said on Friday that protracted tensions could hurt Spain's economic outlook.

 

The region, with an economy greater than Portugal's, accounts for about a fifth of Spain's output.

 

RUBBER BULLETS

 

In many places, people were not able to access the ballot boxes. In a town in Girona province where Catalan leader Puigdemont was due to vote, Civil Guard police smashed glass panels to open the door and search for ballot boxes.

 

Puigdemont voted in a different town in the province. He accused Spain of unjustified violence in stopping the vote and said it created a dreadful image of Spain.

 

Mauri, a 28-year-old sommelier, said police raided the polling station where he had voted in Barcelona province. Police formed a cordon outside the station and made a baton charge when the crowd advanced, he said.

 

"We went forward in peace with our hands raised to remove them from the street and we came to a main road where there were around 20 police vans and there they fired rubber bullets to the ground and in the air," he said.

 

Reuters was not in a position to corroborate his account.

 

Catalan officials said over 460 people had been injured in the police crackdown and the Spanish Interior Ministry said 12 police had been hurt.

 

Spain's deputy prime minister said force used by the police had been proportionate.

 

"The absolute irresponsibility of the regional government has had to be met by the security forces of the state," said Soraya Saenz de Santamaria.

 

The aim of the raids was to seize referendum material and not to target people wanting to vote, another senior government official said. However, the violent actions of the police on citizens was criticised internationally.

 

Nicola Sturgeon, the pro-independence leader of Scotland, which voted to remain part of the United Kingdom in a 2014 referendum, said she was concerned by the images she was seeing from Catalonia.

 

"Regardless of views on independence, we should all condemn the scenes being witnessed and call on Spain to change course before someone is seriously hurt," she said on Twitter.

 

Differences were apparent in the conduct of the national Civil Guard and the regional police, Mossos. In Catalonia's pro-independence heartland north of Barcelona, the Catalan force made little attempt to remove people from polling stations.

 

"This is a great opportunity. I've waited 80 years for this," said 92-year-old Ramon Jordana, a former taxi driver waiting to vote in Sant Pere de Torello, a town in the foothills of the Pyrenees and a pro-independence bastion.

 

(Additional reporting by Angus Berwick in Sant Pere de Torello, and Adrian Croft and Sonya Dowsett in Madrid; Writing by Sonya Dowsett; Editing by Ralph Boulton)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2017-10-02

[midas]

What does it take and how long will it take for the public to realise the true nature of the European Union who are obviously behind all this? There are at least six or seven other countries in the EU with similar separatist regions that also want to do the same as Catalonia which would potentially cause an avalanche throughout the EU. 

Now people should see clearly the fascist nature of those unelected people at the EU who will stop at nothing (including even beating up old people at the polling booths) to protect their own existence and survival. Democracy in Europe!  

[melvinmelvin]

I don't think it is correct to link the differences between Catalonia and the rest of the peninsula to EU or Spain's EU membership. The differences have been there for quite a while.

 

[terryw]

The silence from Brussels is deafening about the behaviour of the Spanish government and police.

 

Catalans have never forgotten what Franco did to them. This dispute is not going to be resolved amicably.

 

[NanLaew]

1 hour ago, melvinmelvin said:

I don't think it is correct to link the differences between Catalonia and the rest of the peninsula to EU or Spain's EU membership. The differences have been there for quite a while.

 

Agreed.

 

Absolutely nothing to do with the EU. It's another home-grown petty dictatorship masquerading as democratic leadership marginalizing their own minorities.

 

There's a similar sh!t fight festering in Cameroon where the Francophone majority have slowly disenfranchised the Anglophone minority for more than 56 years, refusing to ratify the agreement made in 1961 for full national integration and equality.

[Bluespunk]

2 hours ago, webfact said:

Spanish riot police burst into polling stations across Catalonia on Sunday, seizing ballot boxes and voting papers to prevent a banned referendum on a split from Spain in a show of force aimed at asserting Madrid's authority over the rebel region

The fascist apple doesn’t fall far from the fascist tree. 

[Bluespunk]

1 hour ago, midas said:

What does it take and how long will it take for the public to realise the true nature of the European Union who are obviously behind all this? There are at least six or seven other countries in the EU with similar separatist regions that also want to do the same as Catalonia which would potentially cause an avalanche throughout the EU. 

Now people should see clearly the fascist nature of those unelected people at the EU who will stop at nothing (including even beating up old people at the polling booths) to protect their own existence and survival. Democracy in Europe!  

Nonsense. 

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, midas said:

What does it take and how long will it take for the public to realise the true nature of the European Union who are obviously behind all this? There are at least six or seven other countries in the EU with similar separatist regions that also want to do the same as Catalonia which would potentially cause an avalanche throughout the EU. 

Now people should see clearly the fascist nature of those unelected people at the EU who will stop at nothing (including even beating up old people at the polling booths) to protect their own existence and survival. Democracy in Europe!  

 

What utter nonsence. Should be deleted 

[JAG]

3 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

What utter nonsence. Should be deleted 

In the interest of freedom of speech presumably?

 

How very "European"....

 

Incidentally, I also think it is nonsense. But he has a right to utter it.

Edited October 2, 2017 by JAG

[retarius]

My default position on all this is that we should be encouraging and respecting referenda on independence. Smaller nations in Europe tend to have better standards of living.....places like Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Norway and Switzerland are ahead of the French, Germans and British. The arguments against independence for smaller groupings always boil down to loss of power for the politicos, and they really don't want to lose power. The attitude of the Spanish and their boot boys is both dismaying and disgusting.

[melvinmelvin]

 

Wonder if this will give new strength to the idependence efforts in the north of Spain, (Basque - "land").

 

Also, periodically up through the years voices for going it alone have been heard in the Canary Islands.

 

I did read, today, somewhere on www that the European Council intends to look closely into the behaviour

of the Spanish authorities and law enforcers doings in Catalonia this weekend.

 

[Grouse]

16 minutes ago, JAG said:

In the interest of freedom of speech presumably?

 

How very "European"....

 

Incidentally, I also think it is nonsense. But he has a right to utter it.

 

17 minutes ago, JAG said:

In the interest of freedom of speech presumably?

 

How very "European"....

 

Incidentally, I also think it is nonsense. But he has a right to utter it.

 

I think that spreading falsehoods is not allowed on TV

[Grouse]

One needs to read the history before commenting

 

I am pro Catalonia and understand their stance

 

The Spanish government have acted stupidly and brutally. Their actions will of course be counter productive.

 

Many countries have rich and poor regions. Rather selfish to go for independence IMHO.

[bert bloggs]

welcome to justice E.U style

[Thorgal]

34 minutes ago, Grouse said:

One needs to read the history before commenting

 

I am pro Catalonia and understand their stance

 

The Spanish government have acted stupidly and brutally. Their actions will of course be counter productive.

 

Many countries have rich and poor regions. Rather selfish to go for independence IMHO.

 

You're pro Catalan, and you find it rather selfish to go for independence...???

 

I've started to read your posting history.

[Grouse]

2 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

You're pro Catalan, and you find it rather selfish to go for independence...???

 

I've started to read your posting history.

 

2 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

You're pro Catalan, and you find it rather selfish to go for independence...???

 

I've started to read your posting history.

 

Spanish history would be much more interesting I assure you. When you read a bit of that, let's discuss ?

[Grouse]

Remember, Franco died 40 years ago. Certainly, Barcelona was one of the last outposts of the republic but Spain is not a fascist dictatorship. Catalonia has a great degree of autonomy already including their own government and language. The reasons for the push for full independence are complex but greed is involved. Living standards are higher in Catalonia than elsewhere. Just drive you into Aragon next door and the roads are dreadful.

 

If anyone would like a serious discussion, let's talk...

[Grouse]

12 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

You're pro Catalan, and you find it rather selfish to go for independence...???

 

I've started to read your posting history.

 

Catalan is the language, at the risk of being a pedant.

[henry15]

Not only in Spain, bit theire are many European regions who strive fir independance. Flanders,Scotland, Northerm Ireland,  Corsica, The  French and Spanish Basks, Northern Italy.  Theire examples are Slovenia, the Baltic states, Momtenegro, Serbia, Croatia, The Bretrons. The future is an EU of regions, not an EU of nationalistic states. The like to return the Europe like ot was before the Vienna convention in 1815 after the defeat of Napoleon  in Waterloo, where they  re-devide Europe in nationalistic states. this had 2 worldwars as result, and the opression of native peoplewh did'nt even spoke the  language of theire new country. 

[stevenl]

3 hours ago, terryw said:

The silence from Brussels is deafening about the behaviour of the Spanish government and police.

 

Catalans have never forgotten what Franco did to them. This dispute is not going to be resolved amicably.

 

No, it is not, better keep up to date.

[Tchooptip]

5 hours ago, midas said:

What does it take and how long will it take for the public to realise the true nature of the European Union who are obviously behind all this? There are at least six or seven other countries in the EU with similar separatist regions that also want to do the same as Catalonia which would potentially cause an avalanche throughout the EU. 

Now people should see clearly the fascist nature of those unelected people at the EU who will stop at nothing (including even beating up old people at the polling booths) to protect their own existence and survival. Democracy in Europe!  

Are you serious? I doubt it, what those "unelected people at the EU"  have to do with the Spanish police, and sometimes the Catalonian police itself, those policemen did the beating no one else! Pfffff

[mfd101]

All the arguments about rights, democracy, the people have voted etc etc are just hypocritical hogwash, whether in Catalonia or Scotland or Kurdistan or any of a score of other wouldbe indepen-dentists trying to draw the teeth of national unity.

 

And they are so because they won't accept the logic of their own arguments that should in theory apply at all levels - not just the national or ethnic identity levels but the city or village or suburb or indeed individual levels. So if a Scottish city, say Edinburgh, decided by vote of its people - as is their moral right - to remain part of the UK while the rest of Scotland voted for 'independence', would La Sturgeon accept that outcome? I don't think so. And if a suburb of Barcelona voted - as is their moral right - to remain part of Spain, would the Barcelona city council accept that outcome? I don't think so. And if I, Jock MacTavish of Glasgow, decide, as is my moral right, to assert my own individual sovereignty and refuse to accept all other people's laws, would anyone else recognize & accept that? I don't think so.

 

So enough of the moralizing claptrap. It's about power, relative power, and only that: who has it, who wants it, who's likely losing it, and who's possibly gaining it.

 

Sociologists tell us that power, and the capacity to make & implement decisions, is becoming more regional as a result of modern technology, globalization and the constant movement of resources. In this scenario, the nation-state is slowly retreating towards irrelevance. That's fine by me - what did the Thai government (any of the multiples of them) ever do for Surin? On the other hand, how will human beings coordinate global issues - climate change! - when there are not 197 countries but 300,000 (or whatever) sovereign entities?

[Laughing Gravy]

4 hours ago, retarius said:

My default position on all this is that we should be encouraging and respecting referenda on independence. Smaller nations in Europe tend to have better standards of living.....places like Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Norway and Switzerland are ahead of the French, Germans and British. The arguments against independence for smaller groupings always boil down to loss of power for the politicos, and they really don't want to lose power. The attitude of the Spanish and their boot boys is both dismaying and disgusting.

Whilst I agree with your post in general after watching the suffragettes film last night, did I only realized that women got the vote in Switzerland in 1971. Shocked me. The Police seemed to be particularly brutal.  I am still waiting for the EU condemnation.

[stevenl]

50 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Whilst I agree with your post in general after watching the suffragettes film last night, did I only realized that women got the vote in Switzerland in 1971. Shocked me. The Police seemed to be particularly brutal.  I am still waiting for the EU condemnation.

" I am still waiting for the EU condemnation."

You have not been paying attention.

[stevenl]

What does shooting bullets and kicking down voters add to the Spanish stand that the vote was illegal?

[midas]

2 hours ago, Tchooptip said:

Are you serious? I doubt it, what those "unelected people at the EU"  have to do with the Spanish police, and sometimes the Catalonian police itself, those policemen did the beating no one else! Pfffff

 

you doubt ?

 

 

Julian Assange has tweeted “Dear @JunckerEU. Is this “respect for human dignity, freedom and democracy”? Activate article 7 and suspend Spain from the European Union for its clear violation of Article 2.” (Article 7 of the European Union Treaty: “Suspension of any Member State that uses military force on its own population.”) Sure, technically the Guardia Civil is not military, but are Juncker, Michel and above all Merkel really going to try and hide behind that?

 

Assange also re-tweeted this: “Claude Taylor Breaking: contact with Ecuadorian Govt says they plan on removing Julian Assange from their Embassy in London. Expect his arrest to follow.” Assange’s reaction: “DC based ex-White House claims I’m to be arrested for reporting on Spain’s censorship & arrests in Catalonia. Dirty.”

[Laughing Gravy]

30 minutes ago, stevenl said:

" I am still waiting for the EU condemnation."

You have not been paying attention.

I have been paying attention

 

https://euobserver.com/political/139230

 

Still waiting for Junker and friends to condemn this action.

 

[midas]

30 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I have been paying attention

 

https://euobserver.com/political/139230

 

Still waiting for Junker and friends to condemn this action.

 

 

yes indeed and what is striking  is the lack of violence on the side of protesters.

 

 

[Grouse]

6 hours ago, henry15 said:

Not only in Spain, bit theire are many European regions who strive fir independance. Flanders,Scotland, Northerm Ireland,  Corsica, The  French and Spanish Basks, Northern Italy.  Theire examples are Slovenia, the Baltic states, Momtenegro, Serbia, Croatia, The Bretrons. The future is an EU of regions, not an EU of nationalistic states. The like to return the Europe like ot was before the Vienna convention in 1815 after the defeat of Napoleon  in Waterloo, where they  re-devide Europe in nationalistic states. this had 2 worldwars as result, and the opression of native peoplewh did'nt even spoke the  language of theire new country. 

The Baltic states?

 

Northern Ireland? Don't let the DUP hear you say that ?

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Whilst I agree with your post in general after watching the suffragettes film last night, did I only realized that women got the vote in Switzerland in 1971. Shocked me. The Police seemed to be particularly brutal.  I am still waiting for the EU condemnation.

 

You want the EU involved in sovereign nations? Make your mind up!

 

What about police violence during the miners strike?

 

What would you like the EU to do???