In Brexit poker, clock narrows transition options

[dunroaming]

37 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Anybody seen an upside to any of this?

No.

 

Just been watching the final statements from the current talks in Brussels.  Davis says (as he always does) that progress has been made and Barnier says that there is no movement on the three issues that need to be agreed before moving on.  The pound has fallen again (though not by much) on the news and the markets know nothing more than they did last week.

[nontabury]

7 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

I'm not sure of your point as the 1975 referendum result was adhered to - and only 41 years later was there another referendum on the subject!

 

Not quite the same as those arguing that there should be another referendum now (a little more than a year after the referendum).....

 

You could have also added, that we voted in 1975 to remain in trading block.

in 2016 the British people voted to exit an ever increasing undemocratic Union.

[nauseus]

8 hours ago, partington said:

Can someone who believes in referenda explain to me why they think the decision of the 67% who voted in the referendum of 1975 in favour of staying in the EEC now doesn't count as a democratic decision?

 

If the argument is "things have changed", then do you also accept that if things change in the future there could be another referendum to stay in or re-enter?

 

If not, why not?

 

Is one referendum better than another? Why? And how do you decide?  For example when all the very old people who voted to leave have died in 10 years or so, another referendum will probably be overwhelmingly  in favour of rejoining. Would this also be Democracy and so a good thing? If not , why not?

You are quite right, have another referendum in 2057.

[nauseus]

12 hours ago, oilinki said:

Out of curiosity, why do you think common EU army would be a bad thing? I think spending less to military, by collective forces is a really good thing. 

 

Ps. Charge your battery. 

Here is the fundamental reason:

 

I Tommy Atkins, swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, her heirs and successors and that I will as in duty bound honestly and faithfully defend Her Majesty, her heirs and successors in person, crown and dignity against all enemies and will observe and obey all orders of Her Majesty, her heirs and successors and of the generals and officers set over me.

 

Unless the oath of allegiance is changed and accepted, then the British Armed Forces will uphold it, unlike may of our politicians, who have failed to do so.

[boomerangutang]

Whenever there's a union of various entities, there are going to be problems.  Look at the USSR or the USA.  Yet, it's the role of each entity to discuss issues and try to find solutions.  UK saw problems in EU and decided to quit.  Personally, I think it was an unwise decision.  Many of the pro-Brexit voters didn't have a clue what they were voting for.  

 

It's similar to the US prez campaign.  Many Trump voters didn't know what was really going on.  They were bamboozled.  Trump has lost half his base since Nov. last year.  How many pro-Brexit voters would now vote differently (?) - now that they have a better idea of what they voted for.    

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, boomerangutang said:

Whenever there's a union of various entities, there are going to be problems.  Look at the USSR or the USA.  Yet, it's the role of each entity to discuss issues and try to find solutions.  UK saw problems in EU and decided to quit.  Personally, I think it was an unwise decision.  Many of the pro-Brexit voters didn't have a clue what they were voting for.  

 

It's similar to the US prez campaign.  Many Trump voters didn't know what was really going on.  They were bamboozled.  Trump has lost half his base since Nov. last year.  How many pro-Brexit voters would now vote differently (?) - now that they have a better idea of what they voted for.    

Many of the pro-Brexit voters didn't have a clue what they were voting for?  SOS different day/year and wrong, of course. That the reverse was true was very evident from the post referendum interviews, the remainers couldn't even identify Juncker!  Ya boo hiss.

[taipeir]

Of course, former Irish PM John Bruton is taking an entirely objective stance in recommending a six year transition period, isn't he? [emoji23]

Yeah he is taking an objective stance.

A practical one seems you don't like practical ideas these days.

Welcome to bust UK 2020.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

[taipeir]

Can someone who believes in referenda explain to me why they think the decision of the 67% who voted in the referendum of 1975 in favour of staying in the EEC now doesn't count as a democratic decision?

 

If the argument is "things have changed", then do you also accept that if things change in the future there could be another referendum to stay in or re-enter?

 

If not, why not?

 

Is one referendum better than another? Why? And how do you decide?  For example when all the very old people who voted to leave have died in 10 years or so, another referendum will probably be overwhelmingly  in favour of rejoining. Would this also be Democracy and so a good thing? If not , why not?

Of course it would make sense to go the electorate and ask them what kind of relationship they want with the EU.

 

A sensible debate and a sensible vote to find out what they really want.

 

In or out of the EU when they didn't understand what they means was ridiculous!

 

Even now how many understand the customs union or the single market?

 

 

 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

 

 

 

[nontabury]

50 minutes ago, taipeir said:

Of course it would make sense to go the electorate and ask them what kind of relationship they want with the EU.

 

A sensible debate and a sensible vote to find out what they really want.

 

In or out of the EU when they didn't understand what they means was ridiculous!

 

Even now how many understand the customs union or the single market?

 

 

 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

 

 

 

The electorate were in fact asked that very question on the 23rd June 2016. This after many months of discussions and arguments presented by both sides. Yet due to the Fact that the British electorate voted against your wishes, you now suggest holding another referendum in the hope that the electorates will fall in with your wishes. Well that's very Democratic not.

 You may have also missed another fact, on the 8th June 2018 the electorate again went to the polls in the General election. In this vote, 85% of the British people Democratically voted for parties that supported Briexit. One party that is unashamedly pro EU, the Liberals saw their vote basically  collapse.

[taipeir]

No they were just asked in or out.

Most were not well educated enough to understand the ramifications.

 

They were certainly NOT asked for any grey area in between.

 

The grey area in between is the real world!

 

Why not give the public a vote on the options which would be a clear mandate for a course of action going forward not looking backwards.

 

The problem with that referendum is that the result can be attached to any motivation the politicians attach to it.

 

It was a vote for taking back control.

It was a vote for the NHS.

It was a vote for controlling freedom of movement.

It was a vote against the government .

It was a vote against London.

It was a vote against elites.

 

...

Because there weren't enough choices given..

 

 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

 

 

[nontabury]

51 minutes ago, taipeir said:

No they were just asked in or out.

Most were not well educated enough to understand the ramifications.

 

They were certainly NOT asked for any grey area in between.

 

The grey area in between is the real world!

 

Why not give the public a vote on the options which would be a clear mandate for a course of action going forward not looking backwards.

 

The problem with that referendum is that the result can be attached to any motivation the politicians attach to it.

 

It was a vote for taking back control.

It was a vote for the NHS.

It was a vote for controlling freedom of movement.

It was a vote against the government .

It was a vote against London.

It was a vote against elites.

 

...

Because there weren't enough choices given..

 

 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

 

 

Good news for you,with your arrogant attitude, you'll find supporters and friends on these threads.

in the meantime,this is how democracy works, or should.

 

 

[champers]

On 10/12/2017 at 1:40 PM, Grouse said:

https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-eu-trade/

 

Stop buying German cars then.

Spot on. If in the UK, take a look at how many Audis, BMWs, Mercs and VWs are on the road. Then, ask yourself who has more to lose from playing it tough with the UK. 

In a negotiation both sides must be expected to play hardball. A final agreement will be a compromise from both sides.

[taipeir]

Fact : the UK has a LOT more to lose.

 

The EU accounts for something like 40% of UK exports. 44 % per cent according to the link above !

 

The UK is something like 14 percent per cent of exports from the entire EU bloc.

 

So it's completely unbalanced.

 

The UK has a much weaker weak hand but should actually at least try to play ball .

 

Even the Express says German car manufacturers aren't coming to the rescue.

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/863180/Brexit-news-UK-Germany-carmakers-cars-Brussels-EU-latest-Theresa-May-European-Union-video

 

Brexit” according to political commentator Nina Schick. 

 

The President of the Federation of German industry has warned his country will prioritise protecting the single market over securing a good Brexit deal for Britain.

 

Ms Schick claimed that suggestions German car manufactures would put pressure on Brussels to give the UK a good Brexit deal have been proven false. 

 

Speaking to Sky News, she said: “The BDI represents over 100,000 business and employs over eight million people, so the BDI is very very influential. 

 

 

 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[billd766]

14 hours ago, boomerangutang said:

Whenever there's a union of various entities, there are going to be problems.  Look at the USSR or the USA.  Yet, it's the role of each entity to discuss issues and try to find solutions.  UK saw problems in EU and decided to quit.  Personally, I think it was an unwise decision.  Many of the pro-Brexit voters didn't have a clue what they were voting for.  

 

It's similar to the US prez campaign.  Many Trump voters didn't know what was really going on.  They were bamboozled.  Trump has lost half his base since Nov. last year.  How many pro-Brexit voters would now vote differently (?) - now that they have a better idea of what they voted for.    

 

I would not change my vote for Brexit.

 

I ahd a fair idea what I was voting for and against, and since that time nothing from the remainers has been enough to change my mind.

 

If anything the attitude from the EU negotiators and the EU in general has made me more determined to Brexit.

[dick dasterdly]

40 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

I would not change my vote for Brexit.

 

I ahd a fair idea what I was voting for and against, and since that time nothing from the remainers has been enough to change my mind.

 

If anything the attitude from the EU negotiators and the EU in general has made me more determined to Brexit.

"If anything the attitude from the EU negotiators and the EU in general has made me more determined to Brexit."

 

Same here.  I used to be v uncertain re. brexit, but the EU display of pure arrogance as a poker move has resulted in certainty that enough is enough.

 

Time to stop playing the EU's game and instead make plans for leaving at the end of the 2 year notice period.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, dick dasterdly said:

Same here.  I used to be v uncertain re. brexit, but the EU display of pure arrogance as a poker move has resulted in certainty that enough is enough.

 

Time to stop playing the EU's game and instead make plans for leaving at the end of the 2 year notice period.

On the other side, I thought it would be sad to see Britain go, but not so much anymore. 

 

EU is waiting for UK to get it's act together. First do a deal with outstanding bills Britain has earlier agreed to pay for. After that start negotiating what the new co-operation will be. 

 

It's clear EU has much stronger hand on these negotiations. After all, that's why we have the Union; to have more negotiation power when doing deals with other countries. UK must accept that and move forward, both internally and with the negotiations with EU.

[billd766]

16 minutes ago, oilinki said:

On the other side, I thought it would be sad to see Britain go, but not so much anymore. 

 

EU is waiting for UK to get it's act together. First do a deal with outstanding bills Britain has earlier agreed to pay for. After that start negotiating what the new co-operation will be. 

 

It's clear EU has much stronger hand on these negotiations. After all, that's why we have the Union; to have more negotiation power when doing deals with other countries. UK must accept that and move forward, both internally and with the negotiations with EU.

 

I don't know if the UK has a problem in paying the money that the EU wants, but until the EU accounts are audited and they come up with a figure, I don't agree that the UK should sign a blank cheque.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

I don't know if the UK has a problem in paying the money that the EU wants, but until the EU accounts are audited and they come up with a figure, I don't agree that the UK should sign a blank cheque.

What makes you think UK government does not have full access to the account auditings? After all UK is still a full member of the EU. 

[partington]

36 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

"If anything the attitude from the EU negotiators and the EU in general has made me more determined to Brexit."

 

Same here.  I used to be v uncertain re. brexit, but the EU display of pure arrogance as a poker move has resulted in certainty that enough is enough.

 

Time to stop playing the EU's game and instead make plans for leaving at the end of the 2 year notice period.

Hey face, you see this nose?  Slice!  See that, see that!? No nose!!!

 

How do you like that then face, you bastard?! Hah! Hah!

 

Oh wait a minute....Ouch OW! .....

[Khun Han]

9 minutes ago, partington said:

Hey face, you see this nose?  Slice!  See that, see that!? No nose!!!

 

How do you like that then face, you bastard?! Hah! Hah!

 

Oh wait a minute....Ouch OW! .....

 

Nothing of the sort. The EU has shown itself to be exactiy what brexiters claimed it was before the referendum. Anyone who can't see that we need to get out while we still can, before it's too late to do so, simply can't see beyond the end of their nose.

[partington]

7 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Nothing of the sort. The EU has shown itself to be exactiy what brexiters claimed it was before the referendum. Anyone who can't see that we need to get out while we still can, before it's too late to do so, simply can't see beyond the end of their nose.

Well, I'd better study that in a bit more detail. Now where are my glasses?

 

Ah , got them! Now to... Oh wait a minute, I can't  ...OH NO!

[Khun Han]

18 minutes ago, partington said:

Well, I'd better study that in a bit more detail. Now where are my glasses?

 

Ah , got them! Now to... Oh wait a minute, I can't  ...OH NO!

 

If that reply's supposed to be pertinent and witty, I'd put your glasses on first, next time, if I were you.

[Ron19]

A troll post and reply have been removed

[billd766]

6 hours ago, oilinki said:

What makes you think UK government does not have full access to the account auditings? After all UK is still a full member of the EU. 

 

AFAIR there was a report on I think the BBC news about the lack of auditing a while ago.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36276175

 

https://fullfact.org/europe/did-auditors-sign-eu-budget/

 

http://www.eca.europa.eu/Lists/ECADocuments/auditinbrief-2015/auditinbrief-2015-EN.pdf#page=13

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

AFAIR there was a report on I think the BBC news about the lack of auditing a while ago.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36276175

 

https://fullfact.org/europe/did-auditors-sign-eu-budget/

 

http://www.eca.europa.eu/Lists/ECADocuments/auditinbrief-2015/auditinbrief-2015-EN.pdf#page=13

So.. as summary, EU has done a pretty damn good job of accounting, a pretty damn good job of finding out the folks who are abusing the system. This good work has lead to reduce of the abuse to half what it used to be. 

I'd say, that's the community I wish to live in. 

 

I wouldn't want to be paying for the bills of the high life aristocrafts as it's deemed to happen in the UK. But that's your life, not ours, who don't have the blue blooded superior human beings.  

[taipeir]

Aristocratic families own one third of UK land.

The Brits don't have a clue who the real elite are....Hint its not the foreigners.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

[vogie]

8 hours ago, taipeir said:

Aristocratic families own one third of UK land.

The Brits don't have a clue who the real elite are....Hint its not the foreigners.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk
 

Why are non Brits so bitter about us leaving, it wouldn't have anything to do with their subscriptions having to soar when we leave would it? 

[nontabury]

9 hours ago, oilinki said:

So.. as summary, EU has done a pretty damn good job of accounting, a pretty damn good job of finding out the folks who are abusing the system. This good work has lead to reduce of the abuse to half what it used to be. 

I'd say, that's the community I wish to live in. 

 

I wouldn't want to be paying for the bills of the high life aristocrafts as it's deemed to happen in the UK. But that's your life, not ours, who don't have the blue blooded superior human beings.  

Are you referring to the same so called Union,that has failed to have it’s account audited and signed off, over the last twenty years. As I certainly don’t want to continue supporting the high life of The Bureaucrats in Brussels.

 

 

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, vogie said:

Why are non Brits so bitter about us leaving, it wouldn't have anything to do with their subscriptions having to soar when we leave would it? 

Actually we are quite ok for Britain leaving the union. We were in kind of shock at first, but now the separation feels a lot better idea. 

Why are Putinists so eager to divide western unity?

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Are you referring to the same so called Union,that has failed to have it’s account audited and signed off, over the last twenty years. As I certainly don’t want to continue supporting the high life of The Bureaucrats in Brussels.

I'm referring to EU, which have it's books audited.