It's 'farang' Not 'falang'!

[ashacat]

maybe they should just call us Whiteys and have done with it.

5555

[redrus]

There are not too many pommies that I have heard say "farung" properly.

Is there anything that pommies say properly?

Yes.

Piss off you ozzie puff.......! :D

redrus

[gburns57au]

I can't think of a word starting with gaw gai and sounding like a 'k' or ending with one and sounding like a 'g' and I've been reading thai for a few years.

Sorry I got mixed up....too many thoughts in my head at the time...see my other post....

[gburns57au]

Poor Simon...

He is all mixed up...

a lot of Issan people pronounce the R as an R....this leads to derision from the other Thais as they say the Issan people are rolling their R's similar to a Scottish person.

The central, northern and southern Thais pronounce the R as an L....I once pronounced it with the R sound and my teacher told me to learn Thai not Khmer.

Dead wrong here too, gburns. Southerners do pronounce the r with a rolling r sound, which is, btw, the correct pronunciation of the letter

Not according to my southern friends....and as to whether it is correct or not I guess is subjective...my teacher taught me law leua...when I questioned her about this, she insisted she was correct and only the North Easterners pronounced it with a rolling R...Why did I question her ?....because my Buriram wife pronounced words such as Thi Rak, Farang so I got used to that.

Another central Thai here complained about my wifes use of the rolling R...saying as she was Khmer she couldnt speak Thai properly.

BTW my teacher was a Thai born Uni educated English Teacher in Thailand and taught Thai here.

[dee123]

we dont need no education ,we dont need no thought control ,all in all simon your just another brick in the wall

[Axel]

It's foreigner, not foleigner. So must be farang, not falang.

[sbk]

Simon, I have lived in the South for 18 years. Believe me, they pronounce the "r"

[elkangorito]

It's foreigner, not foleigner. So must be farang, not falang.

"It's 'fried rice'...you gleek plick", said the Chinaman to the Greek.

[ChangMaiSausage]

Who cares far flung farang/falang same same but not different

[Boon Mee]

Piss off you ozzie puff.......

Uhh...you mean "Poof" like in 'Poofter"?

[gburns57au]

Simon, I have lived in the South for 18 years. Believe me, they pronounce the "r"

sbk...We have Italians here that have lived here for 30 years and still cant speak English.....your point is ???

[weary]

Sulely you ale just tlolling Simon?

[sbk]

My thought too, weary.

Either that or he needs to get a teacher who is actually from Thailand

[dee123]

careful everyone simon might give you detention

[dee123]

get back to your library book

[redrus]

That's lediculous, Simon can't be a tloll, he's our newest sponsor....!

redrus

[mrbojangles]

The rule with Gaw Gai is that it is pronounced as a K at the start of the word and a G at the end of the word.

Rubbish.

Maybe your getting confused with kor kai?

ooops...I got mixed up....should have been a G at the start and a K at the end...however quite often it is pronounced as a K at the beginning....such as the word the OP used as an example....

That's my understanding too. Gor Gai, as far as i have learnt is pronounced as a "G" at the beginning but it is one of those letters, that if it comes as a final consonant, it is pronounced like a "K"

EDIT// I've just double checked it here http://www.thai-language.com/let/161 and if you scroll down the page you will notice any word ending with ก is pronounced as a "K"

Edited January 10, 2007 by mrbojangles

[Briggsy]

Simon, you are not correct. You introduced Isaan to the discussion and so you must recognise that Isaan is not the same language as Central Thai. Isaan is very similar to Laos. In written Laos, the "r" was thrown in the dustbin a long time ago. So words like borisat in written Thai become bolisat in written Laos.

So when foreigners transliterate ฝรั่ง into falang, they are transliterating Isaan and not central Thai. I am right because I know.

[gburns57au]

The rule with Gaw Gai is that it is pronounced as a K at the start of the word and a G at the end of the word.

Rubbish.

Maybe your getting confused with kor kai?

ooops...I got mixed up....should have been a G at the start and a K at the end...however quite often it is pronounced as a K at the beginning....such as the word the OP used as an example....

That's my understanding too. Gor Gai, as far as i have learnt is pronounced as a "G" at the beginning but it is one of those letters, that if it comes as a final consonant, it is pronounced like a "K"

EDIT// I've just double checked it here http://www.thai-language.com/let/161 and if you scroll down the page you will notice any word ending with ก is pronounced as a "K"

Yep...I didnt make my point as well as I could have so will try to rectify here....Some words such as Kin, the word for eat requires a softer sound than the the harsh G sound...it becomes more of a K sound than a G....some others are Klua - Scared...Klai - far...as against Gawn - before and Gaw - after.

Even the capital is known as Kreung Thep rather than Greung Thep.

Hope this clears things up...a lot of the time it is more about how the individual perceives a word rather than the literal spelling.

[gburns57au]

Simon, you are not correct. You introduced Isaan to the discussion and so you must recognise that Isaan is not the same language as Central Thai. Isaan is very similar to Laos. In written Laos, the "r" was thrown in the dustbin a long time ago. So words like borisat in written Thai become bolisat in written Laos.

So when foreigners transliterate ฝรั่ง into falang, they are transliterating Isaan and not central Thai. I am right because I know.

Oh dear ...here we go again...

Isaan is an area not a language...within the Isaan area there are many dialects...There is no Isaan language per se. The two main languages spoken in the Isaan area are Laos and Khmer...however there are many dialects spoken.

BTW...Issan, Isaan, Isarn Esarn and Esan are all the same place.

[Boon Mee]

Not totally off-topic but here's a study that finds "Chinglish" has contributed as much as 20 percent of all new words added to English in last 13 years, citing "Long time no see" and "Me love you long time" as examples.

[Briggsy]

The rule with Gaw Gai is that it is pronounced as a K at the start of the word and a G at the end of the word.

Rubbish.

Maybe your getting confused with kor kai?

ooops...I got mixed up....should have been a G at the start and a K at the end...however quite often it is pronounced as a K at the beginning....such as the word the OP used as an example....

That's my understanding too. Gor Gai, as far as i have learnt is pronounced as a "G" at the beginning but it is one of those letters, that if it comes as a final consonant, it is pronounced like a "K"

EDIT// I've just double checked it here http://www.thai-language.com/let/161 and if you scroll down the page you will notice any word ending with ก is pronounced as a "K"

Yep...I didnt make my point as well as I could have so will try to rectify here....Some words such as Kin, the word for eat requires a softer sound than the the harsh G sound...it becomes more of a K sound than a G....some others are Klua - Scared...Klai - far...as against Gawn - before and Gaw - after.

Even the capital is known as Kreung Thep rather than Greung Thep.

Hope this clears things up...a lot of the time it is more about how the individual perceives a word rather than the literal spelling.

No offence, mate but you're talking garbled rubbish. กิน กลัว ก่อน ฯลฯ all employ the same first consonant.

[Briggsy]

Mr Burns!

Are you trying to set a record for the highest concentration of factually incorrect statements in one thread?

To state that there is no such thing as Isaan dialect is pedantry in the extreme. Accepted there are regional variations, but there is a very clear difference between all dialects within the Isaan group and Central Thai.

Yet again you display your ignorance. Laos has 6 tones whilst Isaan has 5 thus differentiating them.

People living in the Isaan region will tell you they speak Isaan and not Lao. They know the difference. Except for some villages where the immigration occurred relatively recently where they do speak Laos.

[britmaveric]

Does it really matter??? The meaning is conveyed so.....

[Boon Mee]

Does it really matter??? The meaning is conveyed so.....

Well...it's better than 'Rain'...

[gburns57au]

Mr Burns!

Are you trying to set a record for the highest concentration of factually incorrect statements in one thread?

To state that there is no such thing as Isaan dialect is pedantry in the extreme. Accepted there are regional variations, but there is a very clear difference between all dialects within the Isaan group and Central Thai.

Yet again you display your ignorance. Laos has 6 tones whilst Isaan has 5 thus differentiating them.

People living in the Isaan region will tell you they speak Isaan and not Lao. They know the difference. Except for some villages where the immigration occurred relatively recently where they do speak Laos.

I have highlighted your agreeance with me....There are Isaan dialects....not an Isaan language...when people say they speak Isaan they are speaking an Isaan dialect....not a language....

please consult your dictionary and discern the difference between a language and a dialect....

[SanukJoe]

Mr Burns!

Are you trying to set a record for the highest concentration of factually incorrect statements in one thread?

To state that there is no such thing as Isaan dialect is pedantry in the extreme. Accepted there are regional variations, but there is a very clear difference between all dialects within the Isaan group and Central Thai.

Yet again you display your ignorance. Laos has 6 tones whilst Isaan has 5 thus differentiating them.

People living in the Isaan region will tell you they speak Isaan and not Lao. They know the difference. Except for some villages where the immigration occurred relatively recently where they do speak Laos.

I have highlighted your agreeance with me....There are Isaan dialects....not an Isaan language...when people say they speak Isaan they are speaking an Isaan dialect....not a language....

please consult your dictionary and discern the difference between a language and a dialect....

Forfive me to give some background info. Lao (not Laos) is one of the many Tai languages of the Tai southwestern branch, being Laos, Thailand, part of Myanmar and part of China. Lao is spoken in Laos (but with many dialects) and Lao is spoken in Isaan by 19 million people, nearly a third of Thai population. Lao in Isaan is different from Lao in Laos. One example is Isaan people write "farang" but pronounce "falang", Laos people not only pronounce it like "falang"they also write it that way.

Lao in Laos: Falang = France Falan = french

So a lot of posters are right, it is from which angle you look at it.

Lao is not Thai, Lao in Isaan is not Lao in Laos. On top, as mentioned, even Isaan has Lao dialects.

Joe

[meadish_sweetball]

Simon, you are not correct. You introduced Isaan to the discussion and so you must recognise that Isaan is not the same language as Central Thai. Isaan is very similar to Laos. In written Laos, the "r" was thrown in the dustbin a long time ago. So words like borisat in written Thai become bolisat in written Laos.

So when foreigners transliterate ฝรั่ง into falang, they are transliterating Isaan and not central Thai. I am right because I know.

Oh dear ...here we go again...

Isaan is an area not a language...within the Isaan area there are many dialects...There is no Isaan language per se. The two main languages spoken in the Isaan area are Laos and Khmer...however there are many dialects spoken.

BTW...Issan, Isaan, Isarn Esarn and Esan are all the same place.

While you are right the Isaan dialect continuum has some individual variations, almost all the local dialects spoken in Isaan have one thing in common, the absence of an /r/ phoneme, since they are linguistically part of the Lao dialect continuum rather than the Thai one. To reflect the linguistic situation and not the political one, the border separating Thailand from Laos would more correctly have been drawn somewhere in Khorat province, and the Khmer border would have been moved some ways up into Surin as well.

The Khmer minority in Isaan is the only group who pronounce clear rolling 'r's, and they are a rather small fraction of the total population in Isaan. The other groups which comprise the majority, do not have any /r/ sound in their dialect. I recommend Smalley's 'Linguistic Diversity and National Unity' for the most complete description of dialects and minority languages in Thailand. It really is worth the money and would clear up any misunderstandings.

As for the debate about pronunciation of ก ค ข I do not think we will not get anywhere trying to represent them according to how we perceive them unless we try a different approach.

So for anyone who is interested in phonetics - in a Thai context, all these three letters are pronounced exactly the same when they occur at the end of a word - and this pronunciation is written as 'g' in some transcription systems (Haas for example) and as 'k' in others (AUA i.e. Marwin Brown's for example). Transcription systems primarily for English speakers can have either (the worst ones use both!).

The actual sound of these three letters when in syllable final position is neither a /g/ (because unlike /g/ it has no vocal chord vibration) not a 'k' (because it has no puff of air after it). What happens is, your tongue stops where you would start to make either a /g/ or a /k/ - there is no real equivalent of this in English. Listen to the last (almost inaudible sound) a Thai makes when pronouncing 'frog' and 'frock' in English. If they have not had a lot of exposure to foreigners these words will sound exactly the same, an the final "g" / "ck" will be an 'absence of a sound' - because the tongue stops dead at the palate.

In initial position, ค and ข are pronounced the same in Central Thai. There are two letters for the same sound because this is necessary for correctly representing the tones when using Thai letters. ค is a so called 'low consonant' and ข is a so called 'high consonant'. The sound of them is similar enough to an initial /k/ that it makes some sense to write it like that - the major difference from a /k/ is that in Thai, the puff of air at the end of the sound is more pronounced.

As for ก, the first letter of the Thai alphabet, it has the same sound as a /k/ in for example the word 'sky', but NOT the same as in 'karma' (when karma is pronounced in English). The difference is the absence of a puff of air.

ก is close to initial /g/ as in 'guy', but not entirely the same. The difference is that 'g' in 'guy' is softer, less pressure is applied than with ก in Thai ไก่ .

The IPA based systems write ก as k and ค ข as kh. The 'h' here is to remind of the puff of air, and 'k' is used instead of 'g' to make sure there is no vocal chord tone.

Systems designed for primarily for speakers of English usually choose 'k' for ค ข and 'g' for ก so people will not have to rethink their letter-to-sound correspondence, which can be confusing if you have not learned a foreign sound system before.

[gburns57au]

Yep...I didnt make my point as well as I could have so will try to rectify here....Some words such as Kin, the word for eat requires a softer sound than the the harsh G sound...it becomes more of a K sound than a G....some others are Klua - Scared...Klai - far...as against Gawn - before and Gaw - after.

Even the capital is known as Kreung Thep rather than Greung Thep.

Hope this clears things up...a lot of the time it is more about how the individual perceives a word rather than the literal spelling.

No offence, mate but you're talking garbled rubbish. กิน กลัว ก่อน ฯลฯ all employ the same first consonant.

Yes they do...I dont disagree.....The Thai language is not as cut and dried as you seem to believe it to be....and transliteration is not always easy....but you need to listen to how the words are pronounced by the Thais....get a Thai to say those words and you will soon see what I mean...BTW how do you pronounce and spell the Thai words for GO..FISH..FROG and EYE....Your answer will indicate your real knowledge.

[Neeranam]

Thanks MS, I was waiting for someone to explain that as well as you can.

Lao is spoken in Laos (but with many dialects) and Lao is spoken in Isaan by 19 million people, nearly a third of Thai population. Lao in Isaan is different from Lao in Laos.

Where did you get this information? I disagree.

Is Eessarn a dialect of Laotian or Thai?

BTW how do you pronounce and spell the Thai words for GO..FISH..FROG and EYE

It depends on where you come from. Edited January 10, 2007 by Neeranam