SURVEY: Brexit -- Good or Bad Idea?

[JAG]

3 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

I was chatting with a Spanish expat friend at dinner a few months ago, and conversation got around to Spanish democracy. He told me the story of the last attempted coup (which I vaguely remembered) when Francoist army officers took over parliament. It was the then young King Juan Carlos stepping into the breach with a televised statement condemning the coupmakers which took the wind out of their sails. There was no significant intervention from the European executive.

I vaguely remember that - a little fat chap with a remarkably silly hat waving a pistol around in front of the Parliament....

It was all over in a couple of hours. In my limited experience (observation of various EU agencies, based on my time in Former Yugoslavia), any significant intervention from the European Union or any of its various agencies takes a very long time, especially if the request for action is made after the dinner gong has been sounded!

They were about as much use as a chocolate teapot....

[naboo]

1 hour ago, Khun Han said:

 

The 'EU has prevented war' argument is total nonsense. Can anyone think of a single government anywhere in post-WW2 Europe which has shown the even slightest inclination to revisit such past follies? That state of affairs has absolutely zero/zilch/nada to do with the EU.

I think you need to revisit post 1945 conflict in Europe. There have been many, many conflicts, the majority of which were outside the EU. 

 

Countries that have joined the EU have become much more settled as a result. This is no coincidence!

[Khun Han]

38 minutes ago, baansgr said:

And with Catalonia.....we can see what kind of democracy it really is

 

You're missing my point: it wasn't Europe that kept the peace. And it never has been post-WW2.

[citybiker]

 
The leaders and sponsors of the movement fighting for a referendum were bankers, that is a fact.
 
Obviously UKIP can be "dragged" in, it was them who campaigned for years to get the referendum, it would never have happened without them.  And leave voters have been mislead regarding their agenda, they are helpful idiots in the classic sense.
 
Of course the EU has been a success, the original idea was to prevent another major war in Europe, this is the longest period in recorded history without a major war in Europe.  They also redistribute wealth from the richest to the poorest regions, meeting one of their other targets to tackle inequality and succeeding in boosting millions of people from sustainance levels, building infrastructure, universities and hospitals in the poorest region she of Europe.  They are also the most pro-environment government the world has ever seen, the successes are numerous.  Quite easy to say "what a crock" without a single fact to back it up though, hey?
 
And no, this is not about what you want, this is about what the majority want, this is called democracy and we will have another refendum because the majority want to remain in the EU, so more like see you next year.  And before calling other people muppets try reading outside of your usual narrow band and educate yourself just a little regarding the EU, what they have done for you, your country and what the real agenda is for those talking you into voting leave, nothing is as you think it is, you have been stitched up a kipper mate.
 

I don’t do name calling however No 2nd referendum, Chancellor has already ruled it out & the majority have moved on.
Ask the V4, Visegrád Group, Greece and an element of Spain if the EU has been a success, I think you’ll be highly disappointed with the answer.

As for the rest I had to read it twice out of bizarre bewilderment more than anything, but your entitled to your views.


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[Khun Han]

9 minutes ago, naboo said:

I think you need to revisit post 1945 conflict in Europe. There have been many, many conflicts, the majority of which were outside the EU. 

 

Countries that have joined the EU have become much more settled as a result. This is no coincidence!

 

Can you provide some examples of countries that have had conflicts settled by the EU? I would suggest that it was the agencies that settled the conflicts which should take the acclaim for those countries subsequently becoming settled, and that it is indeed coincidence that they have remained settled since joining the EU.

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

21 hours ago, Crossy said:

51.9% vs 48.1% is hardly a "huge majority", more of a stagger over the line, but I do agree with much of what you say.

 

The tactics in use by the EU (non) "negotiators" do seem to reflect a certain worry even panic that a significant income stream is going to dry up.

 

You need to look at it in the General Election (GE) result terms. It is near enough 4% of votes cast (1.7+ million I think), vast compared with any GE result, and shows up the faults in the 1st past the post constituency system.

In 2015 Ukip got nearly 4 times the number of votes for one MP as the SNP got for 56 MPs...

Of course we had a referendum on that too a few year ago.

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

20 hours ago, sirineou said:

Being more educated on a subject does not mean you were uneducated before, it simply means you were less educated, and now you are more.

Education is a lifelong process .

I think you would be disingenuous if you said that you don't know  more about the subject now, than you knew before.

Unless  of course, you have a learning disability, or you knew all there was to know.

 

There was more than enough time, explanations and propaganda put out in the campaign to educate those that were still ignorant of the situation.

The People made a decision. Cameron's renegotiation was a farce and total failure before that began. The French still have no respect for the British despite what we have done in the last 100 years to get them out of the s#it with the Germans.

Now the EU is panicking as to who will pay for this ridiculous bureaucratic expansionist nonsense.

Talking of learning disability, you should research some European history.

 

 

 

 

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

4 hours ago, naboo said:

I think you need to revisit post 1945 conflict in Europe. There have been many, many conflicts, the majority of which were outside the EU. 

 

Countries that have joined the EU have become much more settled as a result. This is no coincidence!

Err... The UN. Or have you forgotten they keep the peace not the EU.

 

 

[Khun Han]

32 minutes ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

There was more than enough time, explanations and propaganda put out in the campaign to educate those that were still ignorant of the situation.

The People made a decision. Cameron's renegotiation was a farce and total failure before that began. The French still have no respect for the British despite what we have done in the last 100 years to get them out of the s#it with the Germans.

Now the EU is panicking as to who will pay for this ridiculous bureaucratic expansionist nonsense.

Talking of learning disability, you should research some European history.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, Juncker was going on about EU project budgets being stalled, and even tax rates not being able to be set until the divorce bill has been agreed. All this despite the UK's financial contribution to the EU being described by remainers as being not that important to the EU's well-being, with some in the past describing the contribution as a 'rounding error'! All the while, not a squawk  from the msm about the relevance of Juncker's remarks.

[Grouse]

5 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

Can you provide some examples of countries that have had conflicts settled by the EU? I would suggest that it was the agencies that settled the conflicts which should take the acclaim for those countries subsequently becoming settled, and that it is indeed coincidence that they have remained settled since joining the EU.

That's a completely facile argument. Are you saying there has been no repeat of the dreadful European conflicts of the twentieth century because the USA has been the world's policeman? What nonsense. The European powers have lived comfortably together, by and large, for the last 70 years. At 63 years old, I for one am grateful for that. Long may it continue ?

[SheungWan]

6 hours ago, citybiker said:

I don’t do name calling however No 2nd referendum, Chancellor has already ruled it out & the majority have moved on.
Ask the V4, Visegrád Group, Greece and an element of Spain if the EU has been a success, I think you’ll be highly disappointed with the answer.

As for the rest I had to read it twice out of bizarre bewilderment more than anything, but your entitled to your views.


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None of which are applying to leave. Bizarre bewilderment a normal condition it would appear.

[SheungWan]

2 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

You need to look at it in the General Election (GE) result terms. It is near enough 4% of votes cast (1.7+ million I think), vast compared with any GE result, and shows up the faults in the 1st past the post constituency system.

In 2015 Ukip got nearly 4 times the number of votes for one MP as the SNP got for 56 MPs...

Of course we had a referendum on that too a few year ago.

Not that you have checked any of the spreads in UK General Elections. Better make it up and soldier ahead regardless.

[aright]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

The European powers have lived comfortably together, by and large, for the last 70 years. 

Beware counting your chickens before they have hatched. The extreme right wing parties in the EU are gaining power

AEG Germany formed just 4 years ago has just got 13% of the vote 94 seats out of 631.

Golden Dawn Greece got 7% of the vote 18 seats/300

Party for Freedom Netherlands got 13% of the vote 20 seats/150

National Front France got 13% of the vote 8 seats/577

and there are many others

This movement is accelerating. Europeans outside the middle class are unhappy. You made comment recently about a desirable European lifestyle. On your recent jaunt to Europe I don't think you visited Seine Saint Denis, Haute de Seine, Val de Marne the Paris suburbs, 65% of the residents are  immigrants or the children of immigrants , youth unemployment is over 40% I don't need to explain their lifestyle do I? The same can be said of Scampia- Naples ,Malmo -Sweden and Duisberg and Templehof-Germany, etc.etc.. None of these problems are visible from a hotel room in Versailles 

So many Europeans are unhappy which has resulted in a change in voting patterns.

History tells us what happens in Europe when the extreme parties come to power

Another good reason to leave I would have thought.

 

[aright]

35 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

None of which are applying to leave. Bizarre bewilderment a normal condition it would appear.

Why would they apply to leave?  It would mean instant bankruptcy. Much better to stay in and let Germany and France keep bailing you out.

[jobwolf]

15 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

Not to mention the fact that, once we exit the EU, we don't have to buy any of those goods from them.

Reading all this it looks to me like Britain is likely to join the West Indies, Panama, the Green Cape and maybe the Easter Islands as a trading pact.

[nauseus]

13 minutes ago, aright said:

Why would they apply to leave?  It would mean instant bankruptcy. Much better to stay in and let Germany and France keep bailing you out.

Yes.They will stay for as long as they benefit financially.

[Khun Han]

9 minutes ago, aright said:

Why would they apply to leave?  It would mean instant bankruptcy. Much better to stay in and let Germany and France keep bailing you out.

 

It's an utterly bizarre situation: They are already technically bankrupt, but Germany, which has them by the short and curlys, bails them out from month-to-month through the EU. All the while, Germany is milking them through their membership of the Euro. It's like the biggest bank loan (or credit card debt) ever, on steroids. Pure financial slavery.

[Khun Han]

5 minutes ago, jobwolf said:

Reading all this it looks to me like Britain is likely to join the West Indies, Panama, the Green Cape and maybe the Easter Islands as a trading pact.

 

Try reading the news sometime about which countries want a trade deal with the UK asap.

[nontabury]

9 hours ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

There are several polices regarding non EU immigration, there is the points system, it doesn't really matter, the issue is that their policy invites in more people than come through EEA rights, our government are not concerned by immigration numbers like the Brexit voters, they are just pretending to be a bit in their rhetoric as they know what is good for them in regard to retaining votes, they know we need the immigrants, and they will allow them post Brexit, domt be fooled into thinking this ever had anything to with immigration, it has always been about money, and not about making you any.

 

It’s about democracy and sovereignty,more so than money. But to realise that,you must be able to think and question what you are being fed.

 

 

[Kieran00001]

8 hours ago, citybiker said:

I don’t do name calling however No 2nd referendum, Chancellor has already ruled it out & the majority have moved on.
Ask the V4, Visegrád Group, Greece and an element of Spain if the EU has been a success, I think you’ll be highly disappointed with the answer.

As for the rest I had to read it twice out of bizarre bewilderment more than anything, but your entitled to your views.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

The Visegrad group?  The only country there that has not done extremely well out of the EU is Hungary, Poland, Czech and Slovakia are booming, what are you thinking?  The majority of countries have done very well, all have seen real improvement, to call the EU a failure because some countries have done worse than others is ridiculous, even the ones which have ended up with a debt problem have seen massive life improvements for their poor, unless someone actually has some evidence to the contrary then I think we shall have to conclude that actually it has been a success.

[Kieran00001]

9 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

I was chatting with a Spanish expat friend at dinner a few months ago, and conversation got around to Spanish democracy. He told me the story of the last attempted coup (which I vaguely remembered) when Francoist army officers took over parliament. It was the then young King Juan Carlos stepping into the breach with a televised statement condemning the coupmakers which took the wind out of their sails. There was no significant intervention from the European executive.

 

The EU do not intervene, they have not cemented democracy in the way that the Americans might try to do, with a display of might and instilling fear, they did so with economic reliance, since ascending to the EU they have reached a state of mutual dependence that ensures they cannot suffer the rise of another despot, at least not quickly and easily as could happen if they were alone and independent. 

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, aright said:

Beware counting your chickens before they have hatched. The extreme right wing parties in the EU are gaining power

AEG Germany formed just 4 years ago has just got 13% of the vote 94 seats out of 631.

Golden Dawn Greece got 7% of the vote 18 seats/300

Party for Freedom Netherlands got 13% of the vote 20 seats/150

National Front France got 13% of the vote 8 seats/577

and there are many others

This movement is accelerating. Europeans outside the middle class are unhappy. You made comment recently about a desirable European lifestyle. On your recent jaunt to Europe I don't think you visited Seine Saint Denis, Haute de Seine, Val de Marne the Paris suburbs, 65% of the residents are  immigrants or the children of immigrants , youth unemployment is over 40% I don't need to explain their lifestyle do I? The same can be said of Scampia- Naples ,Malmo -Sweden and Duisberg and Templehof-Germany, etc.etc.. None of these problems are visible from a hotel room in Versailles 

So many Europeans are unhappy which has resulted in a change in voting patterns.

History tells us what happens in Europe when the extreme parties come to power

Another good reason to leave I would have thought.

 

Well that's nicely put.

 

Incidentally it's AfD not AEG - I have no fear of panzer dishwashers!

 

But yes, the immigration issue is a big deal and being anti Muslim I welcome that. 

 

All these areas including Malmo and Duisburg and some Paris suburbs need sorting out and I see that happening. Not sure if we will do the same with Rochdale and Rotherham!

[rockingrobin]

10 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

I was chatting with a Spanish expat friend at dinner a few months ago, and conversation got around to Spanish democracy. He told me the story of the last attempted coup (which I vaguely remembered) when Francoist army officers took over parliament. It was the then young King Juan Carlos stepping into the breach with a televised statement condemning the coupmakers which took the wind out of their sails. There was no significant intervention from the European executive.

I dont understand

The attempted coup took place in 1981 and lasted 1 day, Spain joined the EU in 1986

[whatsupdoc]

4 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

Try reading the news sometime about which countries want a trade deal with the UK asap.

Of course many countries will want trade deals with the UK after Brexit; the UK will be desperate for them so those other countries have the upper hand in the negotiations. On top of that, the UK doesn't have the experience or manpower to negotiate all these deals with all these countries.

It will take a long time to sort it out.

[Khun Han]

4 hours ago, rockingrobin said:

I dont understand

The attempted coup took place in 1981 and lasted 1 day, Spain joined the EU in 1986

 

It's not that difficult to understand: posters make the claim that the EU has kept the peace in Europe. I make the claim that the EU never does anything much to keep the peace.

[Khun Han]

5 hours ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

The EU do not intervene, they have not cemented democracy in the way that the Americans might try to do, with a display of might and instilling fear, they did so with economic reliance, since ascending to the EU they have reached a state of mutual dependence that ensures they cannot suffer the rise of another despot, at least not quickly and easily as could happen if they were alone and independent. 

 

The EU offers economic dependence fronted by bribes of easy trade and handouts. It's short-termism of the worst kind, which has accelerated the decline of every country involved except Germany (which milks all the other Eurozone countries through the Euro, further accelerating their decline). One can see how well this is keepeng countries stable, with middle ground politics, by the rise of the far right to an extent not seen since before the second world war.

[thaihome]

6 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

It's not that difficult to understand: posters make the claim that the EU has kept the peace in Europe. I make the claim that the EU never does anything much to keep the peace.

I suspect you don't know much about European history and causes of the many continental wars of the 19th and 20th century and how the EU made the reasons moot.

 

TH 

[Khun Han]

2 hours ago, whatsupdoc said:

Of course many countries will want trade deals with the UK after Brexit; the UK will be desperate for them so those other countries have the upper hand in the negotiations. On top of that, the UK doesn't have the experience or manpower to negotiate all these deals with all these countries.

It will take a long time to sort it out.

 

You're just parroting Project Fear's negative speculation.

[Khun Han]

5 minutes ago, thaihome said:

I suspect you don't know much about European history and causes of the many continental wars of the 19th and 20th century and how the EU made the reasons moot.

 

TH 

 

No, I suspect you're the one who doesn't understand how the EU has inadvertently formented strife on a scale not seen since before WW2.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Khun Han

[Khun Han]

5 hours ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

The Visegrad group?  The only country there that has not done extremely well out of the EU is Hungary, Poland, Czech and Slovakia are booming, what are you thinking?  The majority of countries have done very well, all have seen real improvement, to call the EU a failure because some countries have done worse than others is ridiculous, even the ones which have ended up with a debt problem have seen massive life improvements for their poor, unless someone actually has some evidence to the contrary then I think we shall have to conclude that actually it has been a success.

 

There have been massive improvements in material quality of life for the masses in Thailand (and many other second and third world countries) in the last fifteen years. I'm sure we can credit the EU with that also.