startup technical teaching company

[tonboy]

Living now in Chiang Mai almost one year I am sick of thai workmen.

They do not have the right tools, they are never in time for an appointment, always have to come back to finish the job, do deliver low-quality work, and so on and so on. It is not only me but almost every falang I meet has the same problem.

One of the reasons will be the absolute unprofessional companies that do repairs and maintenance. Most of them who work for private people are very small, do not have enough income to get to a high standard and furthermore, did not have had any reel technical education. They learn as they go...

 

Together with a dutch mate I would like to start up a company that do maintenance and repair for house and shop owners. In the same time we want to get 2 up to 4 younger people to teach the aspects of the maintenance and repair bussiness. So bassicaly teach them how to fix plumbings, electrical issues, lighting, sewer, water, windows, doors, roofs and so on. One of us will go with them to the job and teach them "on the go", the other one will do the aquisition.

 

I would appreciate any tips how to start up suchs company and off course the neccessary WP's

 

[Gulfsailor]

The problem is that after you invested all this time in them, they leave to take better paid employment elsewhere. So unless they pay you to be taught, I can't see how you can make money on this.

Skilled workers are sought after in Thailand and do earn good money. The problem is that we all expect workers at Western standards for Thai minimum wage. Just not possible.

 

[Gulfsailor]

As for the work permit question. You'd need a minimum of 8 Thai employees at at least minimal wage to get 2 work permits. 

[tonboy]

26 minutes ago, Gulfsailor said:

The problem is that after you invested all this time in them, they leave to take better paid employment elsewhere. So unless they pay you to be taught, I can't see how you can make money on this.

Skilled workers are sought after in Thailand and do earn good money. The problem is that we all expect workers at Western standards for Thai minimum wage. Just not possible.

 

that is exactly the idea, they will be with us maybe 1 year and then move on. Knowing that they have learned enough to make a decent living. 

 

[tonboy]

On 17-10-2017 at 1:03 AM, Gulfsailor said:

The problem is that after you invested all this time in them, they leave to take better paid employment elsewhere. So unless they pay you to be taught, I can't see how you can make money on this.

Skilled workers are sought after in Thailand and do earn good money. The problem is that we all expect workers at Western standards for Thai minimum wage. Just not possible.

 

That is exactly the point. After they stayed and learned with us for a year, they will be skilled enough to get a decent payed job. And yes, we will learn them the Western standards. In the mean time they will earn something like 9000-12000 baht a month. 

I am convinced it will not be a problem to find orders for the company. Whenever I speak to expats, they always complain about the Thai standards and are prepared to pay extra to get somebody up to western standards. 

[henry15]

You can not open  a company like that. Its prohibited for foreigners

[khunPer]

You will as a beginning need to establish a Thai company limited with 3-4 million baht shareholder capital and 8 Thai employees, to obtain 2 Work permits for aliens (farangs).

 

You will also need to find customers that will pay the price for skilled workmanship – I think even many complains about the Thais doing smaller construction jobs and repairs, many of the same "many" may not be prepared to pay the high cost for skilled workmanship and foreign management; however may be dependent of location and price-level of estates in the area. I'm not saying it's impossible to run a company, like what you have in mind, but you may need a lot of research before deciding to start it up.

 

Anyway, I wish you good luck with a great idea...

[tonboy]

On 3-11-2017 at 1:24 PM, khunPer said:

You will as a beginning need to establish a Thai company limited with 3-4 million baht shareholder capital and 8 Thai employees, to obtain 2 Work permits for aliens (farangs).

Well, here is the story of the chicken and the egg, who will be first ?

We will not be able to pay 8 thai employees as long as we do not have enough work for them. We will not have enough work for them, as long as at least not one of us is involved for the management, teaching and support of the work. And we will also have to teach them first how to work. And the other will have to find find work for them. For both jobs we need workpermits. 

Find customers that will pay the price for skilled workmanship will according to me be not the biggest problem. Furthermore, we will not be much more expensive. Building smarter, faster, and better will save money for us and the customer.

[FritsSikkink]

Construction is a forbidden job for you, so you can't teach them on the job. You can only be a manager. 

[tonboy]

5 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

Construction is a forbidden job for you, so you can't teach them on the job. You can only be a manager. 

I will not being the actual construction, only the teaching. And for that I need to show them how. And teaching is not forbidden I think ?

 

[khunPer]

55 minutes ago, tonboy said:

Well, here is the story of the chicken and the egg, who will be first ?

We will not be able to pay 8 thai employees as long as we do not have enough work for them. We will not have enough work for them, as long as at least not one of us is involved for the management, teaching and support of the work. And we will also have to teach them first how to work. And the other will have to find find work for them. For both jobs we need workpermits. 

Find customers that will pay the price for skilled workmanship will according to me be not the biggest problem. Furthermore, we will not be much more expensive. Building smarter, faster, and better will save money for us and the customer.

It's not "the  story of the chicken and the egg", the company will be first, the shareholder capital will be next, and pay for employed staff during the startup and learning phase, including you'll need some administrative staff for bookkeeping etc.; and vupti both manager(s) and administrative director(s) will have their work permit. That's how it's done, and has been done before you, and as a foreigner you need some capital to open a business, which will be 51% owned by your Thai partners; however different story if you are from the US, then you can own a company 100% under the amity treaty.

 

You can be director, manager, project manager, instructor etc., but you cannot (legally) do physical construction work, don't even think you can be foreman on a project (you need to check that with your lawyer); i.e. very similar to managing a building construction company.

[FritsSikkink]

6 minutes ago, tonboy said:

I will not being the actual construction, only the teaching. And for that I need to show them how. And teaching is not forbidden I think ?

 

For teaching you need a school, not working on other peoples property.

[FritsSikkink]

Your idea is noble but it won't work in Thailand with the current labor laws.

[tonboy]

2 minutes ago, khunPer said:

but you cannot (legally) do physical construction work, don't even think you can be foreman on a project 

With technical jobs it is impossible to teach somebody how to cut a pipe, lay bricks, mix cement, operate a machine, WITHOUT showing them first how to do this. Impossible. 

[FritsSikkink]

Just now, tonboy said:

With technical jobs it is impossible to teach somebody how to cut a pipe, lay bricks, mix cement, operate a machine, WITHOUT showing them first how to do this. Impossible. 

And as a farang you are not allowed to do it for them, so impossible to start a company like this. 

[tonboy]

2 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

For teaching you need a school, not working on other peoples property.

I do not agree.
In Europe you have companies, like bakeries, cooking schools, technical companies that actually have a department where you learn on the go. Hell, even in Thailand 90% of the car mechanics learns the job in the garage they work. 

 

[tonboy]

Anyway, conclusion according to the above is : not possible.

But, where there is a will, there is a way.

Laws are only guidelines. I think if I can get the labour office convinced that this startup is a good thing for many young people to learn a profession, hopefully they will grant us work permits

 

[khunPer]

18 minutes ago, tonboy said:

With technical jobs it is impossible to teach somebody how to cut a pipe, lay bricks, mix cement, operate a machine, WITHOUT showing them first how to do this. Impossible. 

Not me making the rules, I'm just telling you what I know, and from my own experience. You will need to check with an experienced business lawyer in the area you wish to operate the building construction company, and eventually also check with the local Immigration Office, so you don't run into unforeseen problems.

 

I know several foreigners in the building construction business, some has done very well, and a few also seem to do little specialist work themselves "under the radar"; however the latter is almost a decade ago now, and things seem to get more strict during the later years. I'm major shareholder myself in a company, but not active managing director, so I have a bit of experience from that also; so I just shared the most basic knowledge, as you in your Opening Post did not seem to be aware of how to establish a company in Thailand and begin business operation.

 

A good start guide of information can be found at "Samui for Sale": Starting a Business in Thailand | Foreign Business Law in Thailand...

 

If you are US-citizen, you have different and much better options, also mention in above link.

Edited November 4, 2017 by khunPer

[FritsSikkink]

31 minutes ago, tonboy said:

I do not agree.
In Europe you have companies, like bakeries, cooking schools, technical companies that actually have a department where you learn on the go. Hell, even in Thailand 90% of the car mechanics learns the job in the garage they work. 

 

Not by a farang but what ever, start your company, do the work and get deported and blacklisted if you know better.

[DrTuner]

I take it you're willing to work for 300b per day? Since the price is the #1 deciding factor here. Everybody is used to getting bad workmanship, so at least you need to get it done cheaply.

 

BKK central districts might be the only exception. Different world.

[tonboy]

40 minutes ago, khunPer said:

Not me making the rules, I'm just telling you what I know, and from my own experience.

And I appreciate this, thanks.

I am aware how to start up a normal co.ltd, in fact my thai wife just started up one (export).

And I am dutch. 

 

Edited November 4, 2017 by tonboy

[tonboy]

23 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

Not by a farang but what ever, start your company, do the work and get deported and blacklisted if you know better.

little hostile maybe, why so angry ?
I do not know better, that is why I ask advice and want to be prepared when talking to a lawyer and the government

[FritsSikkink]

2 minutes ago, tonboy said:

little hostile maybe, why so angry ?
I do not know better, that is why I ask advice and want to be prepared when talking to a lawyer and the government

I am not angry but I am wasting my time as you don't want to listen.

[tonboy]

Just now, DrTuner said:

I take it you're willing to work for 300b per day? Since the price is the #1 deciding factor here. Everybody is used to getting bad workmanship, so at least you need to get it done cheaply.

 

BKK central districts might be the only exception. Different world.

Again, I do not agree. 300 baht a day is only for losers. And my market is not the Thai, but mainly the expats that are fed up with thai companies and quality. And believe me, there are a lot of them around. 40.000 already only in the province of Chiang Mai.

We not only will make profit on the work, also on materials. Off course work and material of high quality. High quality material do exist in Thailand, only not at HomePro and so on.
A couple of months ago 2 people came in and installed CCTV. they have quoted 3000 baht for installation only. They finished this job within 2 hours. And I must say they did a good job.  

[tonboy]

Just now, FritsSikkink said:

I am not angry but I am wasting my time as you don't want to listen.

my initial question was : " I would appreciate any tips how to start up suchs company and off course the neccessary WP's"

 

 If you do not have any tips on how to start, please do yourself a pleasure and not wast your time by asking my to listen to an useless conversation from you

[FritsSikkink]

3 minutes ago, tonboy said:

my initial question was : " I would appreciate any tips how to start up suchs company and off course the neccessary WP's"

 

 If you do not have any tips on how to start, please do yourself a pleasure and not wast your time by asking my to listen to an useless conversation from you

Good luck, spend loads on your company, lawyer, accountant and let me know when they will change the labor law for you. 

[DrTuner]

33 minutes ago, tonboy said:

Again, I do not agree. 300 baht a day is only for losers. And my market is not the Thai, but mainly the expats that are fed up with thai companies and quality. And believe me, there are a lot of them around. 40.000 already only in the province of Chiang Mai.

 

I'd love to be wrong on this one. But having observed the way decisions are made here for the last ten years, it's all about the money, quality is a strange farang thing.

 

Even the expats eventually give in. I've resorted to DIY. I suppose most do.

 

Not do discourage, just an observation. If you think you can make it, by all means have a go at it. Try to somehow go the BOI route so you only employ western folks with proven track record. Be prepared to have deep pockets. Chok dee.

[BritTim]

Firstly, a true anecdote that will become relevant later in this long (sorry!) post.

 

Some years ago, a good friend of mine agreed to build a house for his girlfriend up country. The girl is completely uneducated, but smart. She traveled all around the area looking at newly completed houses, and asking who the builder was. Having figured out who did the best job, the builder was approached and asked for a quote. The house came in 70,000 baht below estimate and within 2 weeks of the original target completion date (after fully resolving a fairly short snag list). The house became a show house for the local authority.

 

The point is that, while the vast majority of building work done in Thailand is of awful quality, Thais who take a pride in their work, and know what they are doing do exist.

 

My suggestion would be to find such an artisan builder as the first step. Put it to him that you will help to expand his business, bringing in apprentices (as is your idea) with you providing project management and sales skills, leaving the builder to demonstrate (as necessary) to the apprentices. Since this will be an existing business, it will be easier to get your project off the ground, bringing in one farang initially as salesman and project manager, and adding a second farang later as the number of Thai staff has built to the point where it is possible.

 

Whatever you do, avail yourself of the services of a good immigration lawyer who has a relationship with the local labor office so you do not make missteps. Also, ensure you have a realistic business plan. Even using the approach I suggest, I think you are going to find the initial costs are higher than you think. Have clear written agreements with the Thai builder, but recognize that, in Thailand, it is all about having a good relationship in the end. Always keep things friendly even when the inevitable issues arise.

[blackcab]

When you apply for your work permit, you need to fully explain that you will be working at many different addresses, but that you do not know your customer's addresses in advance.

 

This is important because normally a work permit is locked to the address of the company and all work must be carried out at that address.

 

If you solve this problem in advance you will be fine 

[Robert24]

Anyway, conclusion according to the above is : not possible.
But, where there is a will, there is a way.
Laws are only guidelines. I think if I can get the labour office convinced that this startup is a good thing for many young people to learn a profession, hopefully they will grant us work permits
 

Of course it can be done. Plenty of other foreigners running a company in Thailand. Go through a lawyer for the set up and some guidance what you vsn or cannot do. My guess is you can teach workers how to do something but not be a foreman/supervisor on construction site. That needs to be a Thai. You will need 4 employees per foreigner with WP, but that could also be someone on your books who does accounting, driving etc. Many ways how to achieve that.

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